Someone Should Try This

[JS8588]

I freely admit I'm a gun autist. There are certain things I like. Every piece of metal coated in something better than phosphate to prevent rust/wear. A supported tail bolt carrier to increase theoretical accuracy. CHF barrels give me the warm fuzzies, as does LW50 because it wears better than traditional stainless (allegedly). I like my AR builds to be tight as a tic without any rattle.

I'm also a mediocre shot. There's a reason I don't post groups here. I work 50+ hours a week and my days off are usually spent ticking off boxes on the hunny-do list. I don't have the time I'd like to get good. At least I admit it.

I have a pet theory about something that may (or may not, I'm an autist, not an engineer) increase accuracy (as Molon would say, technically precision) that I'd like to put out there for the Hide. Maybe one of you who does have the skills could test it and prove or disprove it.

Joe Carlos has data out there showing the efficacy of supported tail bolt carriers yielding an increase in potential precision and smaller group sizes. While he was at it, he also tested anti-tilt buffers. If memory serves, he didn't specify, but I believe he ordered it from slash buffers. He found it did not yield any increase in accuracy.

Here's where my theory kicks in. What if you combined the anti-tilt buffer with an anti-tilt buffer tube (along with a supported tail carrier like Lantac, SRC, Dirty Bird, Radian, etc)? The POF or PWS designs in particular come to mind.

The combination, in my mind, could remove enough of the slop in tolerance to possibly give better shot to shot consistency.

I could also see it negatively impacting reliability, but given that I long ago started as an AK guy, perhaps that's just unfounded paranoia.

In any case, perhaps one of you with the skill, time, resources, and also a touch of the 'tism can give this hairbrained idea a try. If it works, I've contributed something. If not, well, back to the drawing board.

 

[Bluedog82]

I’ve got a YouTube channel that I’d be happy to test this out on, if you’d be willing to supply a bolt or BCG.

 

[JS8588]

I’ve got a YouTube channel that I’d be happy to test this out on, if you’d be willing to supply a bolt or BCG.

I wonder if Lantac or OpticsPlanet would donate one for testing.

 

[Bluedog82]

I wonder if Lantac or OpticsPlanet would donate one for testing.

I reached out to Lantac about their BCGs in general a month or two ago and got no response

 

[papershredder]

Interesting thought experiment, but with people already achieving 1/2" and better shot groups with standard quality components, would it be worth it? I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, but experience with a recent large frame build tells me the barrel is where one should focus on for best accuracy. The main benefit I see, and you stated, from supported bcg and anti-tilt buffer is making the recoil impulse more consistent. Which would aid the shooter in making more precise shots but would not improve the accuracy of the rifle itself. The benefit would be negligeable to someone experienced with shooting AR rifles.

Now If I were going this route, I would take it one step further. Here's a quote I snipped from the product page from Phoenix Weaponry's online catalog:
"One of the secrets to having a hyper-accurate AR-15 is making sure that the barrel, barrel extension, upper receiver and buffer tube are concentric."
(Link to page)

Not only concentric, but barrel, bcg, and buffer tube are all centered in-line to one another along with a gas and buffer system tuned for lowest and quickest recoil impulse. Having those three components in-line and centered just might negate the need for the anti-tilt buffer and supported bcg.

 

[MO Fugga]

How it affects a chambered round, locked in, being sent is what I really want to know. How does the ass end of a bcg affect this?

Please excuse my ignorance, this is a new one for me.

 

[whatsupdoc]

The issue is the testing, you would need some kind of adjustable rail gun lower that would be mounted to a heavy
concrete bench so that the human noise is removed from the testing.

Nobody I have ever seen shoot a AR can shoot five five shot groups and hold .5 or less MOA.


Wilson Combat uses similar type of device to test their barrels.
Go to :52

 

[Bluedog82]

The issue is the testing, you would need some kind of adjustable rail gun lower that would be mounted to a heavy
concrete bench so that the human noise is removed from the testing.

Nobody I have ever seen shoot a AR can shoot five five shot groups and hold .5 or less MOA.


Wilson Combat uses similar type of device to test their barrels.

True, and that’s where if i test it, the question will be more “is this actually something that you can notice as a shooter” rather than a fully scientific test rig.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I dont care if you can notice it as a shooter, I only care if the modification provides a measurable increase in accuracy and
the percentage of the increase. Then the shooter can decide if he will see a benefit.

IMO its snake oil.

 

[JS8588]

How it affects a chambered round, locked in, being sent is what I really want to know. How does the ass end of a bcg affect this?

Please excuse my ignorance, this is a new one for me.

Combating AR-15 bolt carrier tilt: taking baby steps to correct an accuracy shortfall in AR-15 rifles. - Free Online Library

Free Online Library: Combating AR-15 bolt carrier tilt: taking baby steps to correct an accuracy shortfall in AR-15 rifles.(TECH TOPICS) by "American Gunsmith"; Sports, sporting goods and toys industry Sport, sporting goods and toys industry

www.thefreelibrary.com

Accurize Your AR-15 - Guns and Ammo

Guns & Ammo editor Joseph Von Benedikt takes a look at four steps to increase precision on your personal AR-15.

www.gunsandammo.com

Interesting thought experiment, but with people already achieving 1/2" and better shot groups with standard quality components, would it be worth it? I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, but experience with a recent large frame build tells me the barrel is where one should focus on for best accuracy. The main benefit I see, and you stated, from supported bcg and anti-tilt buffer is making the recoil impulse more consistent. Which would aid the shooter in making more precise shots but would not improve the accuracy of the rifle itself. The benefit would be negligeable to someone experienced with shooting AR rifles.

For the average shooter (like me, for example), it probably isn't worth it. Then again, it's a modest increase in cost for the build (the biggest increase being the slash anti-tilt buffer).

You may be absolutely correct that the benefit ends up being consistency in recoil impulse vs my hypothesized mechanical precision advantage. This idea has been rolling around in my head for about a year. Input like this is why I finally put it to text, and why I posted it here.

 

[Bigjake83]

I freely admit I'm a gun autist. There are certain things I like. Every piece of metal coated in something better than phosphate to prevent rust/wear. A supported tail bolt carrier to increase theoretical accuracy. CHF barrels give me the warm fuzzies, as does LW50 because it wears better than traditional stainless (allegedly). I like my AR builds to be tight as a tic without any rattle.

I'm also a mediocre shot. There's a reason I don't post groups here. I work 50+ hours a week and my days off are usually spent ticking off boxes on the hunny-do list. I don't have the time I'd like to get good. At least I admit it.

I have a pet theory about something that may (or may not, I'm an autist, not an engineer) increase accuracy (as Molon would say, technically precision) that I'd like to put out there for the Hide. Maybe one of you who does have the skills could test it and prove or disprove it.

Joe Carlos has data out there showing the efficacy of supported tail bolt carriers yielding an increase in potential precision and smaller group sizes. While he was at it, he also tested anti-tilt buffers. If memory serves, he didn't specify, but I believe he ordered it from slash buffers. He found it did not yield any increase in accuracy.

Here's where my theory kicks in. What if you combined the anti-tilt buffer with an anti-tilt buffer tube (along with a supported tail carrier like Lantac, SRC, Dirty Bird, Radian, etc)? The POF or PWS designs in particular come to mind.

The combination, in my mind, could remove enough of the slop in tolerance to possibly give better shot to shot consistency.

I could also see it negatively impacting reliability, but given that I long ago started as an AK guy, perhaps that's just unfounded paranoia.

In any case, perhaps one of you with the skill, time, resources, and also a touch of the 'tism can give this hairbrained idea a try. If it works, I've contributed something. If not, well, back to the drawing board.

I'm very familiar with Joe Carlos and have learnt quite a bit from him on barrel break-in.

I have also already done the work to mitigate carrier and bolt tilt, which by and large is usually only a concern with gas piston operated systems.

As many of you know the Precision Gassers that I build consistently shoot under half MOA, usually in the .3's

I have achieved the above level of accuracy with just using standard Components, below is a pic of a target that was shot yesterday in a LaRue tOBR that I've Rebarreled/Customized with a 20" Bartlein 6.5CM ( REVIEW SOON TO FOLLOW) using the LT BCG and a Standard H3 Carbine Buffer and Springco Red Spring.

I shot (1) round to check zero with the handloads I use for my SP10's, made corrections then shot a 5rd group. I never hold dead center when accuracy testing, I always hold on a edge and in this case I held bottom outside edge of the center green circle. After I finished my group I handed the rifle off to my 70 year old Father in-law who has only shot a large frame gasser a handful of times.

The easy button to remove Carrier and BCG Tilt is to use a JP SCS and the VMOS BCG. Also remember the JP SCS is not designed to run with the buffer retainer installed.

The JP VMOS BCG has removable weights at the rear of the BCG that can be reproduced my any competent gunsmith at a slightly larger diameter removing any excessive play in the Upper Receiver / Receiver Exstenion. I prefer to use Dark Hour Receiver Exstenion Tubes that have a extended Carrier Suport to ensure a smooth BCG transition between Upper Receiver and Receiver Exstenion.

And lastly the fit between the upper and lower receiver needs to have Zero play between the two halves. I personally use the JP Micro Take Down pin sets and hand fit each build.

But to answer the question at hand, with my builds I can't see any measurable accuracy gain.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

I'm thinking the bullet would have left the barrel by the time the carier starts to move?

 

[MO Fugga]

I'm very familiar with Joe Carlos and have learnt quite a bit from him on barrel break-in.

I have also already done the work to mitigate carrier and bolt tilt, which by and large is usually only a concern with gas piston operated systems.

As many of you know the Precision Gassers that I build consistently shoot under half MOA, usually in the .3's

I have achieved the above level of accuracy with just using standard Components, below is a pic of a target that was shot yesterday in a LaRue tOBR that I've Rebarreled/Customized with a 20" Bartlein 6.5CM ( REVIEW SOON TO FOLLOW) using the LT BCG and a Standard H3 Carbine Buffer and Springco Red Spring.

I shot (1) round to check zero with the handloads I use for my SP10's, made corrections then shot a 5rd group. I never hold dead center when accuracy testing, I always hold on a edge and in the case I held bottom outside edge of the center green circle. After I finished my group I handed the rifle off to my 70 year old Father in-law who has only shot a large frame gasser a handful of times.

View attachment 8358873

The easy button to remove Carrier and BCG Tilt is to use a JP SCS and the VMOS BCG. Also remember the JP SCS is not designed to run with the buffer retainer installed.

The JP VMOS BCG has removable weights at the rear of the BCG that can be reproduced my any competent gunsmith at a slightly larger diameter removing any excessive play in the Upper Receiver / Receiver Exstenion. I prefer to use Dark Hour Receiver Exstenion Tubes that have a extended Carrier Suport to ensure a smooth BCG transition between Upper Receiver and Receiver Exstenion.

And lastly the fit between the upper and lower receiver needs to have Zero play between the two halves. I personally use the JP Micro Take Down pin sets and hand fit each build.

View attachment 8358910View attachment 8358911
View attachment 8358913

But to answer the question at hand, with my builds I can't see any measurable accuracy gain.

A foam earplug under the takedown pin tightens receivers pretty good too. Non intrusive solution.

 

[Bigjake83]

A foam earplug under the takedown pin tightens receivers pretty good too. Non intrusive .

You do you, Booboo!

 

[JS8588]

I'm very familiar with Joe Carlos and have learnt quite a bit from him on barrel break-in.

I have also already done the work to mitigate carrier and bolt tilt, which by and large is usually only a concern with gas piston operated systems.

As many of you know the Precision Gassers that I build consistently shoot under half MOA, usually in the .3's

I have achieved the above level of accuracy with just using standard Components, below is a pic of a target that was shot yesterday in a LaRue tOBR that I've Rebarreled/Customized with a 20" Bartlein 6.5CM ( REVIEW SOON TO FOLLOW) using the LT BCG and a Standard H3 Carbine Buffer and Springco Red Spring.

I shot (1) round to check zero with the handloads I use for my SP10's, made corrections then shot a 5rd group. I never hold dead center when accuracy testing, I always hold on a edge and in this case I held bottom outside edge of the center green circle. After I finished my group I handed the rifle off to my 70 year old Father in-law who has only shot a large frame gasser a handful of times.

View attachment 8358873

The easy button to remove Carrier and BCG Tilt is to use a JP SCS and the VMOS BCG. Also remember the JP SCS is not designed to run with the buffer retainer installed.

The JP VMOS BCG has removable weights at the rear of the BCG that can be reproduced my any competent gunsmith at a slightly larger diameter removing any excessive play in the Upper Receiver / Receiver Exstenion. I prefer to use Dark Hour Receiver Exstenion Tubes that have a extended Carrier Suport to ensure a smooth BCG transition between Upper Receiver and Receiver Exstenion.

And lastly the fit between the upper and lower receiver needs to have Zero play between the two halves. I personally use the JP Micro Take Down pin sets and hand fit each build.

View attachment 8358910View attachment 8358911
View attachment 8358913

But to answer the question at hand, with my builds I can't see any measurable accuracy gain.

Honored to have you comment on this thread. I also frequently use the JP Microfits in my builds.

I have a mistrust (blame it on the 'tism) of "variable" or "adjustable" anything. Gas blocks, bolt carriers, and triggers included. I affectionately refer to them as "Murphy traps". To wit, they invite the invocation of Murphy's law. Am I likely over thinking it? Of course. But I'm also one to send phosphate coated barrels off to be DLC treated.

I know you build damn good rifles.

 

[Bigjake83]

Honored to have you comment on this thread. I also frequently use the JP Microfits in my builds.

I have a mistrust (blame it on the 'tism) of "variable" or "adjustable" anything. Gas blocks, bolt carriers, and triggers included. I affectionately refer to them as "Murphy traps". To wit, they invite the invocation of Murphy's law. Am I likely over thinking it? Of course. But I'm also one to send phosphate coated barrels off to be DLC treated.

I know you build damn good rifles.

Anytime..

Let me know if you need anything else.

 

[rothgyr]

I'm very familiar with Joe Carlos and have learnt quite a bit from him on barrel break-in.

I have also already done the work to mitigate carrier and bolt tilt, which by and large is usually only a concern with gas piston operated systems.

As many of you know the Precision Gassers that I build consistently shoot under half MOA, usually in the .3's

I have achieved the above level of accuracy with just using standard Components, below is a pic of a target that was shot yesterday in a LaRue tOBR that I've Rebarreled/Customized with a 20" Bartlein 6.5CM ( REVIEW SOON TO FOLLOW) using the LT BCG and a Standard H3 Carbine Buffer and Springco Red Spring.

I shot (1) round to check zero with the handloads I use for my SP10's, made corrections then shot a 5rd group. I never hold dead center when accuracy testing, I always hold on a edge and in this case I held bottom outside edge of the center green circle. After I finished my group I handed the rifle off to my 70 year old Father in-law who has only shot a large frame gasser a handful of times.



The easy button to remove Carrier and BCG Tilt is to use a JP SCS and the VMOS BCG. Also remember the JP SCS is not designed to run with the buffer retainer installed.

The JP VMOS BCG has removable weights at the rear of the BCG that can be reproduced my any competent gunsmith at a slightly larger diameter removing any excessive play in the Upper Receiver / Receiver Exstenion. I prefer to use Dark Hour Receiver Exstenion Tubes that have a extended Carrier Suport to ensure a smooth BCG transition between Upper Receiver and Receiver Exstenion.

And lastly the fit between the upper and lower receiver needs to have Zero play between the two halves. I personally use the JP Micro Take Down pin sets and hand fit each build.


But to answer the question at hand, with my builds I can't see any measurable accuracy gain.

I hereby resurrect this thread...

Do you just ask a smith to make a weight piece to a certain size, or do you give them your whole upper and tell them to make it tight? What kind of specs would you recommend? I'm between doing this (alreayd have an SCS and JP grendel bolt) or pulling the trigger on a Lantac Enhanced, but don't know who to go to for an oversized weight, or what to ask for precisely.

 

[Bigjake83]

I'll have to find my notes for the specifics.
I measured the inner diameter of my receiver extension and I believe we decided to go .008 -.010 over the original JP weights, you don't have much room to play around with and we also did a crown on the back of the rear weight kinda like a feed ramp to create a smooth transition between the BCG and the receiver extension.

If you go too large you can create a hydraulic effect and your buffer system will basically turn into piston which is no bueno

As I said in my OP, it was a fun experiment but it provided no measurable increase in accuracy. If you're truly concerned about this and you're building a small frame I would track down a Young Manufacturing National Match BCG, they are slightly oversized and generally have a pretty snug fit.

 

[JS8588]

Alright, it may take me another 6 months because this is going to be out of my own pocket, but I'm going to put together a prototype "system" to test this all out.

I will supply an Anti-tilt buffer (someone else's design that I'll be making a few tweaks to. Namely, getting it coated and changing the bumper), a POF anti tilt buffer tube, a Strike Industries flatwire buffer spring (my personal favorite for carbine buffer builds), a stripped thermal fit upper, and a Lantac bolt carrier and cam pin.

@Bluedog82 I'll take you up on your offer to test it.

I'll want all the pieces back, of course along with a summary of your findings.

Anyone else want to get on the list for testing? Feel free to DM me if you'd rather not post publicly.

 

[Bluedog82]

Alright, it may take me another 6 months because this is going to be out of my own pocket, but I'm going to put together a prototype "system" to test this all out.

I will supply an Anti-tilt buffer (someone else's design that I'll be making a few tweaks to. Namely, getting it coated and changing the bumper), a POF anti tilt buffer tube, a Strike Industries flatwire buffer spring (my personal favorite for carbine buffer builds), a stripped thermal fit upper, and a Lantac bolt carrier and cam pin.

@Bluedog82 I'll take you up on your offer to test it.

I'll want all the pieces back, of course along with a summary of your findings.

Anyone else want to get on the list for testing? Feel free to DM me if you'd rather not post publicly.

Sounds good!