Sporterizing a 1903A3

[Mauser34]

Good morning Snipershide,

Before everyone starts yelling at me for sporterizing an 03, the action has already been drilled and tapped by a previous owner.

So I have a 1903A3 Remington built in 1943. The action was drilled and tapped for a scope, but the rear hole is stripped. It has a 2 rifling barrel and the straight stock. My plan for this rifle so far is to re-barrel it with the same contour barrel, replace the straight stock with the c-stock, re-drill the action for bigger screws, remove the iron sights, install a one piece scope mount, install a straight tube low power scope (probably the vortex crossfire II 1-4), and install a recoil pad. I would like to make this into an A4 look alike.The part I haven't figured out yet is what cartridge to chamber it for. the rifle will be used for big game north american hunting. Right now just deer and hogs, but hopefully bigger game in the near future. I do not want to open up the bolt face and cut the feed rails (so magnums are out). That being said the calibers i have come up with so far are 30-06 AI, 30 Gibbs, 338-06 AI or A square, or a 338 Gibbs. I would like to keep based around the 30-06 cartridge it was designed for, but would like a little more punch for bigger animals. I also would like to keep it at or smaller then .338 because of bullet selection. The range of this rifle ma vary from 25 yards to 500ish yards so a higher B.C. bullet is important to me. If anyone has any suggestions for a cartridge as well as ideas for sporterizing please let me know.


Thank you.

 

[sandwarrior]

Chamber it into a .280 Rem or .280 Rem AI if you want long range.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

All the things you're suggesting are good ideas, although I'd really rather be doing it with a Savage. But having what you have, since it's to be a sporter, I'd go with modern optics and mounts, and stick with the plain-vanilla .30-'06. For the '06, a 3-9x40 is probably a stellar ticket.

My handload for the .30-'06 is based on an experiment intended to clone the FGMM load. Rem Brass, CCI BR-2 Primer, 168SMK/165SGK, 48.1gr of IMR-4064. !MOA or better out of my 22" M70.light sporter. Might need a minor tweak for the 1903, but I'm doubting it. You could use the 175SMK, but for the light weight of the 1903, the 165/168 is probably plenty of bullet.

This load is very good, and properly loaded to work nicely in the Garand, too.

...And I'd build that .280 on a Savage first.

Greg

 

[Mauser34]

Chamber it into a .280 Rem or .280 Rem AI if you want long range.

I looked into the 280 AI, but the 30-06 AI has more velocity, more energy, and less drop at 500 yards. I was comparing the 175gr Berger Elite .284 to the 180gr Berger Elite .308.

 

[Ledzep]

Get a Criterion prefit barrel in .30-06 and call it good. Within the realm of a 1-4x scope and reasonable hunting ranges you're not going to notice a difference. Load up some 178 ELDX's and go to work.

 

[Mauser34]

All the things you're suggesting are good ideas, although I'd really rather be doing it with a Savage. But having what you have, since it's to be a sporter, I'd go with modern optics and mounts, and stick with the plain-vanilla .30-'06. For the '06, a 3-9x40 is probably a stellar ticket.

My handload for the .30-'06 is based on an experiment intended to clone the FGMM load. Rem Brass, CCI BR-2 Primer, 168SMK/165SGK, 48.1gr of IMR-4064. !MOA or better out of my 22" M70.light sporter. Might need a minor tweak for the 1903, but I'm doubting it. You could use the 175SMK, but for the light weight of the 1903, the 165/168 is probably plenty of bullet.

This load is very good, and properly loaded to work nicely in the Garand, too.

...And I'd build that .280 on a Savage first.

Greg

I have the Springfield action already and I am wanting to make an A4 clone for hunting. If i do leave it a 30-06 (more like a 30-06 AI) I will most likely using a 180 or 185 grain hunting bullet.

 

[sandwarrior]

I looked into the 280 AI, but the 30-06 AI has more velocity, more energy, and less drop at 500 yards. I was comparing the 175gr Berger Elite .284 to the 180gr Berger Elite .308.

True, but the 7mm has better ballistics past that range. If you never plan to exceed that then go the easy route with the 30-06.

Note that the AI in either .280 or 30-06 are going to need addressing for high capacity feeding.

 

[Mauser34]

Note that the AI in either .280 or 30-06 are going to need addressing for high capacity feeding.

Can you explain this more?

 

[sandwarrior]

The BC of the 7mm's are nominally higher than those of equal weights in .30 Cal. This is offset slightly in the larger bore can produce more velocity. Meaning: from the same case, a 180gr 7mm may not be pushed as fast as a .30 Cal 180gr.
But, because the 7mm VLD is a much higher BC, it will surpass the .30 Cal bullet between 300-500yds. Equal BC .30 Cal bullets weigh much more and cannot be pushed as fast. Superior BC .30 cal bullets are way heavier, and require magnum cases to get them to equal speeds of the 7mm bullets.

Within 500 yds. you will have all the power you need with a 30-06 if you want that. Without going long distance the search for higher BC is pointless.

 

[Mauser34]

The BC of the 7mm's are nominally higher than those of equal weights in .30 Cal. This is offset slightly in the larger bore can produce more velocity. Meaning: from the same case, a 180gr 7mm may not be pushed as fast as a .30 Cal 180gr.
But, because the 7mm VLD is a much higher BC, it will surpass the .30 Cal bullet between 300-500yds. Equal BC .30 Cal bullets weigh much more and cannot be pushed as fast. Superior BC .30 cal bullets are way heavier, and require magnum cases to get them to equal speeds of the 7mm bullets.

Within 500 yds. you will have all the power you need with a 30-06 if you want that. Without going long distance the search for higher BC is pointless.

I understand all of this. The .308 bullet may have a lower B.C. then the .284 of the same wight, but when fired through a 30-06 AI (comparred to the 280 AI) the .308 bullet has less drop more energy and more velocity out to 500 yards.

I was asking you to explain more about why the AI's are going to need addressing for high capacity feeding.

 

[sandwarrior]

Mauser34,

As to the first part of your last post, go back and re-read my post. There is a slight advantage at the muzzle for .308. Beyond that, it's all 7mm. The .30 cal bullet retains enough energy to do what you want out to 500 yds..

As to the second part, when an Ackley case is formed the shoulder is blown out reducing taper. That taper no longer matches the follower and guide rails, and cartridges won't sit solidly between the follower and guide rails. They tend not to be picked up by the bolt when reloading the chamber. Ballisticly, they are and advantage. But, they do take some work to get them to feed properly.

 

[K-tech]

Mauser, have you considered looking at a 25-06? I'm not sure it would be my first choice for elk or moose but it would be hell on pigs and deer

 

[sandwarrior]

K-Tech,

I love the 25-06. Especially for pigs and deer, as you mentioned. But, due to the lack of weight of bullets, it won't do what the .280 and 30-06 will do at 500 yds. Terminal energy, specifically. The 115 Bergers/ Nos BT's and 110 AB's rock from a 1-10" twist barrel, though. For target shooting, I've taken them out to 1k without a problem.

 

[Mauser34]

There are two main reasons I don't want to go with the 25-06 AI. They are: 1. compared to the .280 AI and 30-06 AI there is not enough energy. 2. My dad has a heavy barreled ruger in 25-06. It is an old time great caliber though.

 

[K-tech]

I completely agree with you Sandwarrior, in my opinion the Op should really prioritize the purpose of the rifle prior to building it. In my opinion, trying to find a do-it-all caliber results in a mediocre rifle. I've went back and forth myself about a hunting rifle that's capable of "everything" but I've really come to the conclusion I that I hunt deer and pigs regularly and elk not so much, so why not just use a rifle that works great for that? If i ever scrape together enough money to hunt elk and the need for something big was there, why wouldn't one just buy a modern magnum caliber rifle?

 

[Mauser34]

I completely agree with you Sandwarrior, in my opinion the Op should really prioritize the purpose of the rifle prior to building it. In my opinion, trying to find a do-it-all caliber results in a mediocre rifle. I've went back and forth myself about a hunting rifle that's capable of "everything" but I've really come to the conclusion I that I hunt deer and pigs regularly and elk not so much, so why not just use a rifle that works great for that? If i ever scrape together enough money to hunt elk and the need for something big was there, why wouldn't one just buy a modern magnum caliber rifle?

Like I said the rifle will be used for 0-500 yards and mostly hogs and deer. Maybe in the near future it will be used on occasional bigger game within 0-500 yards. It's not a do all end all rifle.

 

[sandwarrior]

Apparently, I'm having difficulty reading these posts on my phone, as I never saw that the rifle would be limited to deer and pigs. If this were the issue, I'd definitely be considering the 25-06. If after the occasional elk, you can do it with the 25-06.
Some states have a caliber restriction of ,270. So, the Win .270 would be on the table as well. FWIW, I shot with/against a guy who used the .270 quite successfully.

 

[Mauser34]

Apparently, I'm having difficulty reading these posts on my phone, as I never saw that the rifle would be limited to deer and pigs. If this were the issue, I'd definitely be considering the 25-06. If after the occasional elk, you can do it with the 25-06.
Some states have a caliber restriction of ,270. So, the Win .270 would be on the table as well. FWIW, I shot with/against a guy who used the .270 quite successfully.

I was looking into a 25-06. I already have a .243 and .270 though and my dad has a 25-06. My idea for this rifle was to have an 06 style cartridge, but with more energy. I do handload all of my own ammo and don't mind fire forming.

 

[steve123]

Even a 162-168 grainer in a 280AI will have plenty of killing power at 500 and will have a lot more BC than the same weight in 30 cal.

Speeds being close, More BC = less wind drift = less chance of missing or wounding and the improvement in impact velocity because of extra BC helps kill.

I try to choose the least wind drift and recoil combo. 6.5 Saum being my favorite so far sending 140's/.62BC at 3175 fps with lowish recoil. Easy 3300 fps for a warm hunting load in a long barrel like I have.

 

[sandwarrior]

Mauser34,

Can you get any AI cases from anyone you know to see if they'll stay in the magazine correctly? Some magazines seem to work better than others when doing this. Same manufacturer, just one works, one doesn't. It would save you a lot of work in the end if you could get them to fit and cycle through.

The other thing you mentioned was the Gibbs line-up Another variation of "improved". Without changing the shoulder diameter, these should feed well through the magazine. You can go anywhere from 6mm on up to .375. The dies get ridiculously pricey the farther away from .30 cal you go. But, for great ballistics, the 7mm wouldn't be too bad. Something of note here: there is a common misconception from the statement by Rocky Gibbs, that the 7mm Gibbs and the .280 AI are about the same. About the same performance-wise. They are very different in case geometrics. It's not hard to make a Gibbs case, you neck up one size larger, (to create a false shoulder to headspace on) then partially neck size down to your caliber choice. Then fireform. Or start with 30-06 cases and just neck down.

Huntingdons carries the dies A guy in Pennsylvania, Goodling Rifles, carries reamers and can make you a die. It's spendier than an Ackley, but possibly easier when it comes to feeding.

 

[K-tech]

I was looking into a 25-06. I already have a .243 and .270 though and my dad has a 25-06. My idea for this rifle was to have an 06 style cartridge, but with more energy. I do handload all of my own ammo and don't mind fire forming.

Fair enough; I really think at the end of the day whether you go with a 280 or '06 you're going to get the job done. All this talk about sporterized Mausers got me looking on gunbroker and then I ended up buying this:

I can't quite to seem to get the link to work right on my end, but the item number is 630952469. Between this forum and gunbroker, many o paychecks have been lost...

 

[sandwarrior]

I stand corrected on the Gibbs line of cartridges. They do blow out the shoulder somewhat. I found a resource that lists the shoulder diameter at .441" I always remembered the shoulder @ .449". In any case the Gibbs shoulder is extended, the shoulder angle increased from 17.5/20 deg. (depending on which case you start from) to 35.5 deg., and final diameter is .455"

 

[Foul Mike]

How about 6.5/06? I can't be the only person that likes it. FM

 

[Mauser34]

I would like to try the 30 Gibbs. Can the 30-06 chamber be reamed out to 30 Gibbs? I figure I am going to change the barrel anyway might as well see if I like the 30 Gibbs before I spend the money for a new barrel.

 

[sandwarrior]

Mauser34,

Yes, that was the principle behind it. As well as the Ackley improved version. You will have to neck up to create the false shoulder to fire form.

FWIW, if you go back and research reloading manuals, you won't see a lot of praise for improved 30-06 cases. Ignore that. Inconsistencies abound in the BS cartridge introduction rhetoric. It often goes like "No improvement, not worth it". With extra room you can get more velocity. Steeper shoulders save case life. And, with the lattitude of powders (and bullets) we have today you can definitely improve upon what the 30-06 of yesteryear could do..