Spotting scope or Laser Range Finder: What's more Important?

Jakeonthekob

Sergeant of the Hide
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Mar 8, 2018
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Hey guys, with the talk about the Vectronix Terrapin X coming out, I had a question on gear. What is more important for long range target shooting, a mil reticle spotting scope or a laser range finder?

I am going to have a 7-300 Win Mag built and want to shoot it out to 1 mile, maybe 2K, and I don't want to skimp on gear that will help me shoot out to those ranges accurately. Therefore, where is my money better spent? I do have a celestron 25-75x spotting scope but it really won't do much good spotting at 1 mile with any sort of decent clarity. Btw, I am running a Kahles 624i MSR scope so rifle optic is not a limiting factor.

Thanks for any input!
-Jake
 
Laser.

It’s not even a discussion in many ways. I have the laser and the spotter, both very fancy.

The laser totally revolutionized long range shooting and started the march toward there only being one remaining major variable: the wind.

I use 25x optics to spot at a mile from the rifle and it works. My buddies double up on their guns and spot too. And if conditions are fucked for spotting, we get out the drone.
 
Hey King, thanks for responding.

So if it's just me and a buddy, or just me, then knowing exact distance is a much higher priority over having a spotting scope with nice glass and reticle, right? And if I practice enough, spotting my own shots is very possible at that distance?
 
The King had it correct.

Get on your guns, both call only the correction, do it as shortly and quickly as you can.. done..take advantage of the same wind.

That said, if you were not “allowed” to be on the spotting rifle, you need a spotter at least as good as your scope.

Now yes, if you can not self-spot sometng is wrong.. usually, bad alignment and drive. Sure, a 375 in a 7lbs gun isn’t good, Butkus that the case?
 
Let me also say there is something of a good counter argument to my “range range range” rant.

today you can use a phone app with sat photos to measure distance between targets and many ranges are fixed distance.

but in the field in the middle of no-cell-service land the laser is king.
 
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I look at it this way, a range finder is a great tool, you get an instant solution, especially with newer models being able to link to bc's, and calculate angles. Spotting scopes you have the ability to range, observe at higher resolution, observe wind downrange. As a sniper team leader i'd always stress to my guys that learning basics and using "bare bone" equipment was a for the most part failproof. We have had our range finders give false readings or just malfunction in other ways. Because of this I stressed ranging with a scope or spotting scope reticle would be best suited for our craft. Ranging to within meters with a spotting scope was easily doable in under 30 seconds.

IMO a spotting scope would give you more use whether it would be competition or real world use along with less parts to possibly fail on you.
Hope i was of some help.
 
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I look at it this way, a range finder is a great tool, you get an instant solution, especially with newer models being able to link to bc's, and calculate angles. Spotting scopes you have the ability to range, observe at higher resolution, observe wind downrange. As a sniper team leader i'd always stress to my guys that learning basics and using "bare bone" equipment was a for the most part failproof. We have had our range finders give false readings or just malfunction in other ways. Because of this I stressed ranging with a scope or spotting scope reticle would be best suited for our craft. Ranging to within meters with a spotting scope was easily doable in under 30 seconds.

IMO a spotting scope would give you more use weather it would be competition or real world use along eith less parts to possibly fail on you.
Hope i was of some help.

As a long time ELR shooter, how accurately can you measure a 24” plate at 2000m during the day with your mill reticle?
It is BS, you’ll pull a milling error that has you hitting dirt before the target. Optical disturbances jack small targets creating to much error.
 
Ok in that case, could anyone give any spotting scope suggestions with MIL reticle for under $2k please? I could learn how to range targets the good old fashioned way, I just want something that works from 100 yards to 2K yards reliably.
 
Ok in that case, could anyone give any spotting scope suggestions with MIL reticle for under $2k please? I could learn how to range targets the good old fashioned way, I just want something that works from 100 yards to 2K yards reliably.
Buy a swaro, or henz, you will still not be able to accurately mil range an ISP when mirage is up at ELR distances..

Sure they are assume under 1k or on large ass targets like a Tacoma with 7 guys in the back.. but again, not for target shooting at ELR distances
 
With any long range shooting the order of importance is Rifle, Scope, Ammo, and Laser, after that all the rest are accessories, The Guys are right, out 2000 yards your going to have enough time to recoil ya rifle and spot your own shots, (y)

Get ya laser and your almost there, you can pick up a second Mk 4 for less than 1k or a New Bushnell at 5 or 600 bucks.

hope that helps.
 
Ok in that case, could anyone give any spotting scope suggestions with MIL reticle for under $2k please? I could learn how to range targets the good old fashioned way, I just want something that works from 100 yards to 2K yards reliably.


The math on milling never works out on smaller tgts unless you can mil to 0.025 by eye. Ive heard people say they can do it but I've never seen in done in practice. Get the most accurate LRF you can afford. Think of truing your data on a tgt you estimated the range to using passive ranging, what a mess that would be. I can only imagine the impossibility of bumping BC's in transonic based on what I mil'd something at by eye at 1100m.
 
I have a MK4 spotter with the TMR reticle that I haven't used in over a year. My primary shooting is PRS with some UKD matches thrown in. I've been using Leica Geovids that include the LRF and great glass for spotting. It definitely doesn't have the power for ELR, but if your looking to spot wind and hits for another shooter, I don't miss the extra power from the spotter.
 
as @epaultmbt mentioned small targets are hard to mill. Thats true, but I guess it would make sense to explain what I meant about "not be able to accurately mil range an IPSC when mirage is up at ELR distances.." Because this isn't a small target. What mirage does is make the targets look larger than they are, so "mil ranging" is very problematic for precision shooting at very long ranges.

Below is what I do, I am not saying is it the correct way, just what I do and why the math fails with horribly short on reasonable sized targets with mirage and longer ranges.

Close range:
Yards as Target size: Normally for speed I'd use yards for size of target were 1 is 36" I'd only brake it down by quarters.. so I am working with 9" =.25; 18"=.5, 24"=.75; etc.. x1k /visual. This works great at 800 and in.. super fast without a calculator, (usually) and close enough for the most part.

For further ranges:
Inches as Target size X 27.77 (or divide by 36x1k) /by visual - you need a calculator/phone/pen or whatever-- at least I do. So for easy math lets use a 24x24 plate note the IPSC Silhouette @ 30"x 18" because can't make out the head so you have a fussy 24" T target or a smaller 18"

Below is an image from a real f up we had. I will use this because we all are accomplished enough mil ranging, but this was such a cluster, it sticks well in my memory and we all made a lot of wrong decisions. Usually, if we can see the impact, you can quickly figure out a bad decision.
2145yards-above-bombing-area-B17.jpg


Setting the stage,

We we getting most of the lazed returns from the ridge just prior to the target, but did not know it. The target appeared to be sitting on this ridge at 1650 yards. We were also getting a few returns at 2195-ish. To confirm, we dropped onto the spotting scope and the target appeared to be .425 mil+

Using .425mil would yield 1568 we rounded down for mirage (a huge guess) to .4mil we got a read about 1,660. So we had a high but almost identical read to the majority of the lazed returns, saying 1650 .. Arn't we cool..

Round 1 - no Visual - same for all shooters
Several rounds in we stopped all no visuals
We ranged a rock hill to our left at 1650 and all of our dope was money..

Back to the target -- all no visuals -- WTF we al thought.

Anybody guess why we had no visuals? We were too F'd wrapped up in our mil reading ability..

Here is the hint - the mirage made the visual over 1.25mil larger appearing than it should have been. Even though we all were aware of the larger appearing images, the numerous erroneous lazed returns from the ridge at 1650 and confirmed visual and HORRIBLE mil read.. had us waste tons of time, ammo..

Issues:
1: The position of the Target no real back stop at it is on the top of a ridge (red arrow)
2: The green lines are dead space created by the rolling hills. From prone you do not see that 300-400 yards are hidden, just before the target. (this we did NOT realize while shooting and ranging- the rounds were dropping into this dead space.)
3: Lots of vegetation from the prone position leaves little visual on the target
4: The above gave lots of weird returns from the Vectronix way more at 1650 than 2195 - but we should have known it had to be the target 500y further.
5. A lot of Mirage, increases the appearance size of some objects even though we tried not to count the bounce of the image.
6. never set your target up with dead space leading all the way up to the bottom edge and no backstop.

Long story short The range finder was working correctly, the - mill ranging LR and ELR is/was problematic, just a waste if you can't see the misses.
 
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If your just shooting for fun use something free to range with if it's possible. If I'm gonna depend on electronics for ranging I'll use Distance Tool on iPhone, I think my buddies use Hunt Stand on an Android. So I'd much rather have a nice spotting scope.
 
After years of long range shooting without a spotter, I bought one just to see why so many people use them (Vortex Razor HD 20-60).

I used it exactly one time. Then realized, just as expected, it cannot do anything that my s&b on top of my rifle can't do. Except it adds another thing to drag out, setup and then you have to hop back and forth between glass. I figure the only reason to use it is if you need a very large field of view (hunting or target acquisition?) or if someone is just watching you shoot or spotting you (so they don't have to lay down).

A laser range finder on the other hand is a must.
 
In my case I bought a good spotting scope w/reticle first. Then the rangefinder. I prioritized the scope first because I can use it for more than one thing. Also, IMO rangefinders don't always work as advertized (the range they will actually find to) and or under certain circumstances (work better if there is contrast). I am also comparing an apple to orange. My spotter is Luepold's Mk4 20-60x 80 w/TMR, a higher end spotter. My rangefinder is Sig Sauer's Kilo 2200 LRH, a low to mid-range range finder. I think most will eventually end up with both.