starting 6.5 Creemoor reloading and have several questions

[Rum&Powder]

So I am just starting reloading....like I don't actually own any reloading equipment and am about to start buying stuff. I plan to shoot long distance mainly. I would like to hit some competitions but there aren't any within 2 hours of me so will probably just go to some of the long distance ranges being 1000yds to 1 mile. I have read every sticky in the reloading forums, I have bought and read a Nosler reloading manual, and I have spent countless hours on youtube trying to get questions answered. Here is a list of stuff that I am unsure about. I would love any suggestions/opinions/answers anyone has.

1. I first need to buy a brass cleaner. should I go corn/dry or stainless/wet tumbler? It will be out in the garage so I am not concerned with dust. I have read that some swear by the wet but others that say that the inside of the neck will get too clean and will have issues getting the bullet to stay in the neck correctly.
2. I have mostly once fired match Winchester and Hornady brass. I will use this brass for distance shooting but I have about 40 rounds of regular S&B and Federal brass that I used to sight the gun in(multiple times). Can I use this random brass for my ladder tests or do I need to chunk it and just use the better stuff?
3. If I get a press that will prime is that fine or do I need something better for priming the cases?
4. Do I need a neck resizing die or full length? If neck only, where do I find one? I been looking at Midway and midsouthshooterssupply and do not see any neck only that are in stock.
5. Should I get match dies or regular? If match grade what do you recommend. Keep in mind that while I am not against buying something nice (read expensive) I am pretty cheap.
6. Do I need a micrometer seating die? If so do I seat the bullet long and then measure each one, make an adjustment to the seating die and then seat to the same ogive to base length as the length I come up with?
7. I can't find a shell holder that says it is for 6.5 creedmoor. They list 20 cartridges for each one but I have not found one that says it fits the 6.5. Can someone tell me what # shell holder I need? Shell holder #3
8. I have 3 different powders and so will be doing 3 different ladder tests to find most accurate load. When doing the ladder test do your recommend running the first test at .5 grain increments and then once I have found a group then run a 2nd test from top of group to the bottom in .2 grain increments? If not how would you conduct the tests?
9. After I have come up with the load and start working on seating depths, where do I start with that? I have heard top competition shooters say that they try .010 into the lands and try .010 back and go with the best. Stating that you want to be on or off but not right at. Others say to start .020 off the lands and then go farther away from the lands in .002 increments. What are your suggestions?
10. Some of the stuff I read, talked about different crimping amounts. Can you crimp in different strengths? If so how do you know what is right and how do I quantify how tightly something is crimped?

I have most of the reloading equipment picked out and plan to purchase in the next month or so. If there is anything that you highly recommend, please add that as well.

 

[Rum&Powder]

Additional info if needed...
These are going in a bolt gun.
My powders are H4350, Suprformance, and 6.5 Staball
Primers are BR2
Brass is once fired Winchester and Hornady match
Bullets are Hornady 140 grain ELD

 

[NH4X]

I'm plum tuckered out tonight and don't feel like writing a whole lot . Maybe others will chime in.

Handloading for Competition by Glen Zediker is money well spent imo.....Top Grade Ammo by Glen is his latest. I've made a habit of purchasing Hodgdon's annual reloading manual........lots of good load data there.

Concerning shell holder.........308 win , 270 win , 30-06 is what you seek.....for 6.5 creed

All three powders stated will work very well

 

[Partsunavailable]

1. I just dry tumble with walnut. 2. Brass matters, work your brass the same way for your ladder test as you will for making your precision loads, so I'd stick with one brand at a time. 3. Lots of ways to prime, it's a conveniece thing. 4. I full length size with a Redding bushing die, I think it's more consistent than my other calibers that I just run basic full length dies. A micrometer seating die is another nice convenience. 8. I run .2 grains apart to test, I think you will miss your node by going .5.

 

[Carlos Danger]

1. I ultrasonic clean so that all surfaces including primer pockets get clean.
2. I've used once fired brass from various manufacturers. Good to play on but Lapua will show you where the extra cost goes.
3. I've only press primed. Even my RCBS has a priming attachment.
4. Full length resize.
5. Standard dies are a good start. Bump up to bushing die when experience grows....unless you think you've got it down pat.
6. I think micro seaters are a luxury. You can achieve the same results with a standard seater and micrometer.
8. I typically test with that method especially if there's a large spread between start and max charges.
9. Hard to say. Some bullets like to touch and others like .050 jump. I'd try staying .010 off to start and seat deeper until you find what works.
10. Never crimped.

 

[Rocketmandb]

So I am just starting reloading....like I don't actually own any reloading equipment and am about to start buying stuff. I plan to shoot long distance mainly. I would like to hit some competitions but there aren't any within 2 hours of me so will probably just go to some of the long distance ranges being 1000yds to 1 mile. I have read every sticky in the reloading forums, I have bought and read a Nosler reloading manual, and I have spent countless hours on youtube trying to get questions answered. Here is a list of stuff that I am unsure about. I would love any suggestions/opinions/answers anyone has.

1. I first need to buy a brass cleaner. should I go corn/dry or stainless/wet tumbler? It will be out in the garage so I am not concerned with dust. I have read that some swear by the wet but others that say that the inside of the neck will get too clean and will have issues getting the bullet to stay in the neck correctly.

You'll get a bunch of different opinions on this. For me, I use an ultrasonic cleaner with BoreTech case cleaner. Yes, the necks all get pretty clean, but I don't consider that to be a detriment at all. The way I figure it, I'd rather start with everything the same and move on from there. My moving on consists of lubing the necks with graphite prior to seating, which negates the detriments of an overly clean neck. I find it to be superior to leaving carbon in the neck from the last firing - more consistent.

1. I have mostly once fired match Winchester and Hornady brass. I will use this brass for distance shooting but I have about 40 rounds of regular S&B and Federal brass that I used to sight the gun in(multiple times). Can I use this random brass for my ladder tests or do I need to chunk it and just use the better stuff?

Brass from different manufacturers will potentially give different results. Brass with thicker walls means less case capacity which transforms to higher pressure - it also results in a lower max load before pressure.

1. If I get a press that will prime is that fine or do I need something better for priming the cases?

It's okay, but many use a separate primer for consistency. I have three of the 21st Century hand primers (yes, I'm that lazy that I have one for each size base I shoot so I don't have to reset).

1. Do I need a neck resizing die or full length? If neck only, where do I find one? I been looking at Midway and midsouthshooterssupply and do not see any neck only that are in stock.

Full length. If you only ever neck size, eventually the brass will expand too much and not spring back enough and you'll have extraction issues.

1. Should I get match dies or regular? If match grade what do you recommend. Keep in mind that while I am not against buying something nice (read expensive) I am pretty cheap.
2. Do I need a micrometer seating die? If so do I seat the bullet long and then measure each one, make an adjustment to the seating die and then seat to the same ogive to base length as the length I come up with?

I like micrometer seaters. You do not want to reset each round. The reason I like micrometer dies is that they help quite a bit with seating depth tuning. Frankly, though, nothing beats an arbor press with something like the LE Wilson seater. I've said many times that this press/die setup resulted in the single biggest improvement in consistency that I've seen from any of the changes I've made to my reloading process. Yes, it is an expense. Well worth the investment, however.

1. I can't find a shell holder that says it is for 6.5 creedmoor. They list 20 cartridges for each one but I have not found one that says it fits the 6.5. Can someone tell me what # shell holder I need? Shell holder #3
2. I have 3 different powders and so will be doing 3 different ladder tests to find most accurate load. When doing the ladder test do your recommend running the first test at .5 grain increments and then once I have found a group then run a 2nd test from top of group to the bottom in .2 grain increments? If not how would you conduct the tests?

I like to run 3 ladders and look at a combination of group size (ensuring the same load is shot at the same target to obtain the groups) and velocities. This should yield a couple/few interesting charge weights to zero in on. If you have the patience, run 5-shot groups in .1 gr increments around said charge weights, then, if any of said groups confirm the ladder test, pick the best and run a lot of 15-20 to confirm again.

Frankly, I'd pick one powder and start there. Leave the others alone. Get comfortable with one before trying the others.

1. After I have come up with the load and start working on seating depths, where do I start with that? I have heard top competition shooters say that they try .010 into the lands and try .010 back and go with the best. Stating that you want to be on or off but not right at. Others say to start .020 off the lands and then go farther away from the lands in .002 increments. What are your suggestions?

It depends on what you're doing and what bullet you're shooting. For most practical shooting, I find jamming the lands to be problematic. If you've ever jammed and have to extract a live round, eventually you'll see what one of the problems can be. If possible, I far prefer shooting Berger hybrids. They are much more jump tolerant, so more resistant to the effects of throat erosion. With Bergers, I start at 15 off the lands and go from there at 3 thou increments. I usually find a good depth in the 20s and stop. On my 6 BRA, I was 1000+ rounds in before I adjusted my seating depth again - and yes, the throat had eroded.

1. Some of the stuff I read, talked about different crimping amounts. Can you crimp in different strengths? If so how do you know what is right and how do I quantify how tightly something is crimped?

Crimp is no bueno. No need.

 

[cas6969]

All the loading threads need up to date sections. "Here are the five best powders for this caliber. Ignore them since you can't buy them, here's some loads using some left over Herco from 1973"

 

[Rum&Powder]

Thank you for all the advise.
Something that I don't understand is why use the full length resizer?
Why not use just the neck resizer?
Most of what I read says that If I shoot new ammo, and I am reloading for just a bolt gun. The case is the correct size and only the neck needs to be resized. So I am curious why those of you that responded (and even those that didn't) choose full size over neck only.\
I did order the full length resize die...I am just trying to understand why some go full length and others are neck only.

 

[918v]

Because brass expands more than it springs back. So a new case can be neck sized without issue but after the second or third reload you will have a hard time closing the bolt. And then you will gall the bolt lugs.

 

[straightshooter1]

Thank you for all the advise.
Something that I don't understand is why use the full length resizer?
Why not use just the neck resizer?
Most of what I read says that If I shoot new ammo, and I am reloading for just a bolt gun. The case is the correct size and only the neck needs to be resized. So I am curious why those of you that responded (and even those that didn't) choose full size over neck only.\
I did order the full length resize die...I am just trying to understand why some go full length and others are neck only.

Neck sizing only doesn't bump back the shoulder and after a few firing the length from the base to the shoulder datum will have expanded making closing the bolt difficult. So, I like to neck size and then bump the shoulder back a little without sizing the body and have not had any such issue (I do this on my .308 cases).

 

[DocRDS]

Do start with the stickies above lots of good info. My 0.02:

Dry or wet clean--both work.
Hand Priming tool is fine.
A micrometer seating die is REALLY nice. Its not necessary.
Always full-length size (its in the stickies and on you tube why). Aim to bump the should while sizing 0.003 (some say 0.002) inches.
There is no need for "match" dies--any FL sizing dies will do and take you a LONG way.
H4350 is THE powder for 6.5 Creed. 140 ELD-M at about 41.5 grains. Always work up your own loads.
Primers: Get what is available.
Brass--use the same brass if you can. There may be (small) shifts for different brass.
Focus on making match grade ammo first, then customize to your rifle. Make GOOD SAFE ammo and then worry about making it great. So duplicate a book load at book COAL. 140 ELD-M is a great round to start with.

There is no magic--its about consistensy--doing the same thing to every cartridge.


This is what I did when I started. You learn the process and can start producing 1MOA capable ammo. After that...sky is the limit.

 

[dnchrist]

Thank you for all the advise.
Something that I don't understand is why use the full length resizer?
Why not use just the neck resizer?
Most of what I read says that If I shoot new ammo, and I am reloading for just a bolt gun. The case is the correct size and only the neck needs to be resized. So I am curious why those of you that responded (and even those that didn't) choose full size over neck only.\
I did order the full length resize die...I am just trying to understand why some go full length and others are neck only.

I full length resize EVERYTHING! That way I don't worry about which gun it is going to be used in.

 

[Campguy308]

One thing I will add that's related to the full length sizing... you will really need some way to measure how much your FL die is bumping the shoulder. Hornady makes a tool for this called a headspace comparator I believe.

You don't want to bump the shoulder too much or you can have premature brass failure. Most reloading manuals that I have seen do a poor job of explaining this.

 

[918v]

I full length resize EVERYTHING! That way I don't worry about which gun it is going to be used in.

Do you know the chamber length for EVERYTHING and how much your FL die is sizing the brass?

 

[Near miss]

This is what I did when I started. You learn the process and can start producing 1MOA capable ammo. After that...bank account is the limit.

FIFY

 

[dnchrist]

Thank you for all the advise.
Something that I don't understand is why use the full length resizer?
Why not use just the neck resizer?
Most of what I read says that If I shoot new ammo, and I am reloading for just a bolt gun. The case is the correct size and only the neck needs to be resized. So I am curious why those of you that responded (and even those that didn't) choose full size over neck only.\
I did order the full length resize die...I am just trying to understand why some go full length and others are neck only.

I have a few guns with the same caliber. It taught me to always do full-length resize because you might want to use those reloads in a different gun. I also have a Son that has a tendancy to occasionally help himself to my reloads!

 

[918v]

I have a few guns with the same caliber. It taught me to always do full-length resize because you might want to use those reloads in a different gun. I also have a Son that has a tendancy to occasionally help himself to my reloads!

Do you know how much you’re bumping the shoulders when you FL resize?

 

[dnchrist]

Do you know the chamber length for EVERYTHING and how much your FL die is sizing the brass?

That is my standard reload procedure. I own many guns. Not all are Creedmores, ARCs, etc. Some are just required to take out center mass... All that is required is that they feed in several guns and hit what I am aiming at. I am 76. I don't have the TIME to be precise with the complete collection. Case in point - 7.62X39. I have 4 different AK models. I can guarantee you they won't all spec out the same, but they ARE required to reliably feed and eject with my reloads. Same with my 5.45X39. Getting my reloads to shoot in my gun, my neighbor's AND my Son's was a requirement.

Sift through all the advice from others and then decide what fits YOUR needs.

That goes for financials also. A precision instrument is petty cash for one reloader, and a week's pay for another. I reloaded for over 30 years before I bought a Dillon, and I'm STILL trying to justify it, because I shoot a LOT of guns, not a LOT of the same kind. I only make a couple hundred rounds at a time to refill my stock level. I actually prefer my RCBS Turret with (if I remember correctly) 17 turrets with two calibers on each turret. LOVE IT! They sell vertical turret stackers, but I use lag screws attached to a cabinet outside wall. I love being able to quickly set up and reload what I have shot that day at the range, and next week - a different caliber! I do have one added feature tomy turret - two complete set-ups for primer size. One for large, one for small. 2 screws and I'm changed. I also added a strengthening to the cheap cast pot metal mechanism. They break very easily when you bump the steel tube!

 

[918v]

What you’re advocating though is going to lead to premature case failure. For all you know you’re bumping the shoulders .010” which will make the case fail within three reload cycles. That’s not sound reloading advice given good brass is hard to find nowadays.

 

[dnchrist]

Do you know how much you’re bumping the shoulders when you FL resize?

I'm 76. I'm I'm not shooting competition. They go bang and I hit what I'm aiming at. I follow the instructions on the RCBS sizer die, and then verify with a Sheridan open chamber gauge for a perfect fit and a clean ejection without extractor damage. I work up my groups carefully and always below recommended max. I use Lee Factory crimp dies instead of the seater die crimp.
As long as I have no primer or pressure issues and I get 1 hole groups and 6 or so reloads, I'm happy. I shot as a kid when a miss meant we didn't eat. I shoot now because I like it and have for over 60 years. I reload because I enjoy it, and it guarantees I can continue to afford my hobby.

 

[dnchrist]

What you’re advocating though is going to lead to premature case failure. For all you know you’re bumping the shoulders .010” which will make the case fail within three reload cycles. That’s not sound reloading advice given good brass is hard to find nowadays.

I don't seem to be having those kinds of issues.... I anneal the first time before reloading, and am getting at least 6 reloads per case. Before I retired, I bought several thousand rounds of each caliber, and haven't dipped into them significantly. I have lost more than I destroyed. You might want to contact RCBS with your info. Mine are doing fine, including small base dies in multiple calibers. I do see some reloaders that only neck size doing a lot of mortaring.

 

[918v]

I don't seem to be having those kinds of issues.... I anneal the first time before reloading, and am getting at least 6 reloads per case. Before I retired, I bought several thousand rounds of each caliber, and haven't dipped into them significantly. I have lost more than I destroyed. You might want to contact RCBS with your info. Mine are doing fine, including small base dies in multiple calibers. I do see some reloaders that only neck size doing a lot of mortaring.

A case gauge is not your chamber. Do you understand what you are doing when you’re FL sizing the case? You have two different tolerances: die/ shell holder/ press and your rifle manufacturer. If you don’t measure anything and just blindly size the case then your cases will fail. Measuring takes only a few seconds. It is peace of mind.

 

[dnchrist]

A case gauge is not your chamber. Do you understand what you are doing when you’re FL sizing the case? You have two different tolerances: die/ shell holder/ press and your rifle manufacturer. If you don’t measure anything and just blindly size the case then your cases will fail. Measuring takes only a few seconds. It is peace of mind.

Not sure how you got the impression I don't measure anything. I know a LOT of reloaders that do full size every time, (that's why RCBS, Hornady, etc. sell them) so I failed to see the error of my ways for 50 years. Sorry I was having so much fun at your expense. I will now go find a bridge to jump off of because I am not worthy.

 

[Near miss]

Good discussion anyhow, reminded me to check my numbers and they indeed had some improving.. turned the die up maybe 10th of a turn.

 

[918v]

Not sure how you got the impression I don't measure anything.

Your response in post #18, your failure to answer the question on how much you are bumping the shoulder, etc.

 

[dnchrist]

I use the RCBS dies per instructions, keep case length in spec, verify I can load and eject a case easily. I verify with the Sheridan cutaway gauge. I tend to use small base dies when available, because I am using a gas gun, not a bolt gun. I do not shoot over a couple hundred yards, and have no need to go any farther. I do not own a bump gauge, or any electronic annealers or powder machines because what I do is fine for my needs and being 76 and on Social Security does not allow for a lot of fancys. My propane annealer seems to do the trick, even for converting 6.5 Creedmoor to 8.6 Blackout. (I'm on my 7th brass reload there.) All of my ARs have 80% lowers done by me on a vertical mill which I bought broken in half and rebuilt and rewired and added digital readouts on XYZ, and motorized the table. I am very happy with my RCBS turret press, and have no plans to upgrade. And yes, ALL of my resizing is done full length. Sorry I jumped in to the conversation trying to help those who are on tighter budgets than most of you gurus and may enjoy shooting and reloading and gun building without the need to hit a gnat's balls at 2 thousand yards.

 

[918v]

I use the RCBS dies per instructions, keep case length in spec, verify I can load and eject a case easily. I verify with the Sheridan cutaway gauge. I tend to use small base dies when available, because I am using a gas gun, not a bolt gun. I do not shoot over a couple hundred yards, and have no need to go any farther. I do not own a bump gauge, or any electronic annealers or powder machines because what I do is fine for my needs and being 76 and on Social Security does not allow for a lot of fancys. My propane annealer seems to do the trick, even for converting 6.5 Creedmoor to 8.6 Blackout. (I'm on my 7th brass reload there.) All of my ARs have 80% lowers done by me on a vertical mill which I bought broken in half and rebuilt and rewired and added digital readouts on XYZ, and motorized the table. I am very happy with my RCBS turret press, and have no plans to upgrade. And yes, ALL of my resizing is done full length. Sorry I jumped in to the conversation trying to help those who are on tighter budgets than most of you gurus and may enjoy shooting and reloading and gun building without the need to hit a gnat's balls at 2 thousand yards.

Are you familiar with the concept of tolerances? For example, in my 6.5cm if I were to FL size the cases without paying attention to shoulder bump I would be setting the shoulders back .010”

Do you think that’s good?

 

[dnchrist]

Are you familiar with the concept of tolerances? For example, in my 6.5cm if I were to FL size the cases without paying attention to shoulder bump I would be setting the shoulders back .010”

Do you think that’s good?

What I think is you're not listening. I spent several years with Texas Instruments and NASA, so, yes I understand tolerances.

My 6.5 is doing fine. My 22 Nosler is doing fine. My 2 Grendels are doing fine. My Valkyrie is doing fine. My 6mm ARC is doing fine. My M1 carbine is doing fine. My Winchester 94 is doing fine. My Lee Enfields are doing fine. My Mosin Nagants are doing fine. My Uzi is doing fine. My PPS 43 is doing fine. My Sten is doing fine. I built all three by welding up and converting to semi-auto - demilled kits. My Remington 700 in 30-06 is doing Fine. My Mauser is doing fine. My AK47s and AK74 (which I built from de-milled kits) are doing fine. My SKS is doing fine. My pistols are doing fine. My Remington Rolling Block (32 rimfire) is not doing fine because they don't make ammo any more and I don't reload rimfire, (nor to I want to.) My shotguns are doing fine, but I don't reload them.

I am happy with my setup and process. The only thing that is not fine is I'm thinking it may be time to leave the forum, and I will miss it. I understand you are an expert, so BUMP THIS!

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Well, I for one am impressed with your rifle collection and how you got it. Probably wouldn't let ya size my brass but I'd damn sure like to shoot your guns......

 

[dnchrist]

Well, I for one am impressed with your rifle collection and how you got it. Probably wouldn't let ya size my brass but I'd damn sure like to shoot your guns......

I forgot the two .308s, 458 SOCOM and Beowulf. After building all these weapons, including 80% lowers on all AR builds, and reloading all those calibers - many of them for over 50 years and always having long life out of my brass and good headspace (and safety), I cannot see what is so darn bad about doing the same thing millions of other reloaders have been doing for the same amount of time. I have studied pros and cons about only resizing the neck, and like many others - I (key word being I) choose to full length resize. I did not realize that automacially made me a bad, imoral person! If what I am doing is so bad, why hasn't anyone sued RCBS for improper practices? Had he not gone about it without all the anal arrogance and belittling and just moved on, I would have taken it under advisement and moved on also. It got WAAAAAAY out of hand, considering the original post was to help someone else just beginning, which is intimidating in itself. I do not reload for competition, or to prove I am the guru on the planet. I reload because it's cheaper, I can get better results than store-bought ammo, and I find it relaxing - all admittedly selfish reasons. I do not try to convince anyone else they are idiots if they don't do it my way. Last I checked this is a country with freedom of expression and ideas. I am up to 7 reloads on the 6.5 Creedmoor brass that I converted to 8.6 Blackout, so what I do can't be TOTALLY screwed up. Incidentally, the reason I have built so many guns is so that my Son and his children can see, hold, and shoot a large selection of weapons, especially WWI, WWII and Cold War. I started out as a truck driver, learned electronics and spent years with Texas instruments, NASA, Electronic Data Systems, and Braniff International Airways. I then switched careers by teaching myself computer programming. I wrote federal income tax software for fortune 500 companies. My main account was Exxon-Mobil. I then wrote corporate infrastructure software for major companies. I enjoy challenges, so that is how I learned MIG and TIG and started restoring military weapons. I am currently doing a CETME-C. So, I don't think I am not bright enough to be a bumper, it just isn't what I need to get the results I require. I have no desire to neck size for one gun and have that same ammo stick in the chamber of the next one. My ammo matches store-bought, but with greater accuracy, and I am satisfied with that. My reloads will safely fire in whatever gun I put them in, and feed well, and that is fine with me.

 

[918v]

You still haven’t answered my question. You are ignoring the headspace issue when FL sizing. Is that a good thing?

 

[nn8734]

You still haven’t answered my question. You are ignoring the headspace issue when FL sizing. Is that a good thing?

You’re arguing with a guy who believes rifle chambers shrink…not sure how far you going to get with such an individual.

Let natural selection take its course…

 

[spife7980]

 

[dnchrist]

You still haven’t answered my question. You are ignoring the headspace issue when FL sizing. Is that a good thing?

I guess I am too stupid to even understand what you are asking. I know enough to set headspace on the AKs I built, and I've never built anything without first getting a set of go/nogo gauges. I use gauges on my reloads. I know the dangers of too much headspace, and I am familiar with the common headspace issues in Lee Enfield, requiring 3 different bolt heads.

I hate to be rude, but take 50 cents and call someone else who gives a Schiff what you think! You just don't know when enough is enough. You are now screwing with something very important to me - my blood pressure. Please drop this shit! If you are trying to piss me off, you have succeeded!

 

[dnchrist]

You’re arguing with a guy who believes rifle chambers shrink…not sure how far you going to get with such an individual.

Let natural selection take its course…

I said I couldn't explain it, so I replaced the barrel and the problem went away.

 

[dnchrist]

View attachment 8021797

I joined this forum to learn and to possibly help when I could. It is very hard to learn anything from schoolyard bullies who belittle instead. It was never explained what measurements I needed to learn to take, only that I was stupid for not taking them. It will be a good forum if some of you every learn to fix the holier than thou and humbly help.

 

[918v]

I joined this forum to learn and to possibly help when I could. It is very hard to learn anything from schoolyard bullies who belittle instead. It was never explained what measurements I needed to learn to take, only that I was stupid for not taking them. It will be a good forum if some of you every learn to fix the holier than thou and humbly help.

The problem is your advice is only helpful to those whose chambers match their dies. Being that dies and chambers don’t often match, it is good to measure how much they are bumping the shoulder. If I followed your advice my 6.5 brass would last 2 firings. it is unfortunate that you are so stubborn that it is driving your blood pressure up. I’m the same way. Take care of yourself.

 

[dnchrist]

View attachment 8021797

Out of curiosity, just what positive result did you hope to accomplish with this?

 

[spife7980]

Out of curiosity, just what positive result did you hope to accomplish with this?

It lowered my blood pressure.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I joined this forum to learn and to possibly help when I could. It is very hard to learn anything from schoolyard bullies who belittle instead. It was never explained what measurements I needed to learn to take, only that I was stupid for not taking them. It will be a good forum if some of you every learn to fix the holier than thou and humbly help.

Speer has a reloading manual that goes into depth about sizing bottle neck cartridges. Consider buying a copy and reading it a couple of times. It'll help fill in the gaps between your functional knowledge of how most guns work and reloading best practices.

 

[dnchrist]

The problem is your advice is only helpful to those whose chambers match their dies. Being that dies and chambers don’t often match, it is good to measure how much they are bumping the shoulder. If I followed your advice my 6.5 brass would last 2 firings. it is unfortunate that you are so stubborn that it is driving your blood pressure up. I’m the same way. Take care of yourself.

I get what your are saying. Pity you couldn't have said it better before. I even tried Google and didn't get much good info either. I take pride in spreading what knowledge I have without trying to make the person look like a fool by asking the same question over and over without modification. To your point, all my guns are doing fine for me. That doesn't mean they couldn't be better - I'm sure they could. I am 76, pretty crippled up, hi bp and COPD, and the only fun I get any more is a 1 hour visit to an indoor gun range with one of my guns, then take it home, clean it, and reload the ones I shot. IMO, the best investment I ever made was the RCBS turret press with mutiple turret plates. I don't get a lot of use out of my Dillon Xl750 because once I had about a thousand rounds of each caliber, I don't do enough of each one to make the setup worth while. I have no idea how many reloads I'm supposed to get out of my brass - Some has 10 reloads, some has 7 and some that I don't shoot a lot have less. I have had to adjust my sizer dies to match the shoulder to my chamber for reliable feed and ejection, but that is the extent of it. I am sure my Son will get more involved because he has mentioned an interest in shooting steel. I felt that I had learned the basics with a lot of bang for the buck so that I could help new reloaders until they were ready to take the next step in knowledge and investment, which is where the experts come in. I still believe there is a place for both in the hobby and still have fun without making fun of someone with less knowledge.

 

[dnchrist]

It lowered my blood pressure.
View attachment 8021824

Then I guess it was worth it to raise mine, if you say so.

 

[dnchrist]

Speer has a reloading manual that goes into depth about sizing bottle neck cartridges. Consider buying a copy and reading it a couple of times. It'll help fill in the gaps between your functional knowledge of how most guns work and reloading best practices.

Thank You. Pity someone hadn't approached it from that direction initially. I have the Speer, Hornady, Nosler books, but I must admit I used them mostly for trim specs and load data Handloader Magazine has never said a lot about it. Since my rounds were accurate, not stressed, and brass was lasting, I assumed I was doing it properly, especialy with the Sheridan open gauges. I would probably be more receptive to changing up everything except for age and health. You may be assured that I will be paying closer attention to those sections, at least for some of my rifles. I did do quite a bit of research on burn rate to compensate for the fact that some factory loads, Hornady Black AK74 for instance, were way to hot. Another example are the recommended loads for 8.6 Blackout. I relish learning, if done without a buggy whip. Learning HOW is easy, once you understand the WHY.

 

[nn8734]

Thank You. Pity someone hadn't approached it from that direction initially.

Initially you were approached about it civilly but all you wanted to do was argue.

Does the term “case head to shoulder datum” mean anything to you?

 

[dnchrist]

Yes. IMO, Initially, a lot of time was spent telling me I was doing it wrong if I wasn't measuring it with a gauge. That did put me on defense, considering what I was doing had been working just fine to cover my needs. Next, I felt like I was being attacked, for which the normal response would be more defense, and explaing my whys to help explain my logic and process. This in turn, I hoped, would bring a more detailed explanation of the other party's logic and process. All I got was a continuous repeat of the same question, which accomplished nothing.

I understand some of the case head to shoulder datum reasoning, but I felt, and still do, that the dies and gauges I use were doing it well enough for my needs. I was open to discussion, but it did not happen. IMO, half a dozen rounds of "You still haven’t answered my question. You are ignoring the headspace issue when FL sizing. Is that a good thing?" was accomplishing NOTHING. I did not even understand the question and after many repetintions, it became quite insulting. I realize I may have not had the knowledge you guys do about this, but I damn sure wasn't ignoring headspace! I also have read a lot of articles concerning the pros and cons of neck sizing only, and like many others, felt that, for my needs, Full Sizing was the way to go. So, instead of explanations, I got immature cartoons and comments. So I went from "How can I help a new user until they get ready to take the next step into advanced reloading to "I really don't need this shit." Try to see it from my perspective, as well - I started out over 50 years ago using the simple Lee Loaders where primers would explode during installation. RCBS was a giant step up, so I remembered how intimidating it was in the beginning and figured I would add my personal experience, not expecting to jump into a firestorm.

 

[nn8734]

Yes. IMO, Initially, a lot of time was spent telling me I was doing it wrong if I wasn't measuring it with a gauge. That did put me on defence, considering what I was doing had been working just fine to cover my needs. Next, I felt like I was being attacked, for which the normal response would be more defense, and explaing my whys to help explain my logic and process. This in turn, I hoped, would bring a more detailed explanation of the other party's logic and process. All I got was a continuous repeat of the same question, which accomplished nothing.

I understand some of the case head to shoulder datum reasoning, but I felt, and still do, that the dies and gauges I use were doing it well enough for my needs. I was open to discussion, but it did not happen. IMO, half a dozen rounds of "You still haven’t answered my question. You are ignoring the headspace issue when FL sizing. Is that a good thing?" was accomplishing NOTHING. I did not even understand the question and after many repetintions, it became quite insulting. I realize I may have not had the knowledge you guys do about this, but I damn sure wasn't ignoring headspace! I also have read a lot of articles concerning the pros and cons of neck sizing only, and like many others, felt that, for my needs, Full Sizing was the way to go. So, instead of explanations, I got immature cartoons and comments. So I went from "How can I help a new user until they get ready to take the next step into advanced reloading to "I really don't need this shit." Try to see it from my perspective, as well - I started out over 50 years ago using the simple Lee Loaders where primers would explode during installation. RCBS was a giant step up, so I remembered how intimidating it was in the beginning and figured I would add my personal experience, not expecting to jump into a firestorm

None of that is relevant when it comes to setting up a sizing die correctly. All that matters is that you know the correct way to do it so that you can pass that knowledge along, as you’ve alluded to in previous posts.

The instructions that come with most FL sizers are incorrect as don’t explain the proper method (if they did it prob wouldn’t take up much more (if any at all) space they currently consume with the wrong instructions.

Though I will admit, if I had your luck I’d be at the casino 24/7/365. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t experienced a case head separation event at some point in the last 50 years.

So in short,

Step 1: measure a fired case’s for its case head to shoulder length using a headspace comparator dial calipers. Write that number down (note - this number will not give you the actual headspace of the chamber but will serve as a reference number that you will use in the next step.

Step 2: screw your sizing die until it touches the shell holder when the ram is fully raised

Step 3: Size the piece of brass and measure the case head to shoulder and compare to your fired case.

If the sized case is .003 or more less than the fired case, back the die out and size additional cases one at a time until you get a measurement that’s .002 less than your fired case (go .004 under for gas guns). Then lock it in place and index the die and lock ring with a marker and that’s the die you use for that rifle.

Here’s me taking a CH-ShD measurement after sizing. My fired brass for that rifle measures on average 1.628” using that comparator and indicator. So I’m giving myself .002 clearance so brass stretch is very minimal. Prolongs brass life and mitigates risk.

 

[dnchrist]

THANK YOU! NOW I can start to understand what the fuss is about! Has anyone ever spoken to RCBS about this?

As far as luck - Actually, I grew up in Minnesota, and moved to Texas in 1965. I went back home for reunions last year and two years before that. We stayed at the Prarie Band Casino in Kansas the first year and I won enough on the dollar slots to pay for the trip, hotel tickets, gas and lodging. Last year they sent me an invitation and comped the rooms both ways. I won enough for expenses for the entire trip as well as pay for the reunion catering. They have sent me another invitation. I have a system, and have used it with success in Nevada and Oklahoma as well, but much of it, I'm sure is luck. Good luck DOES seem to follow those who work hard...

After your explanation, how can I NOT follow through with this, if only to be sure of my options. Is that the Hornady comparator set? I have ordered one.

Is the purpose of this operation to compensate for the case growing during firing or something else?

"Then lock it in place and index the die and lock ring with a marker and that’s the die you use for that rifle." Doesn't that seem counter productive to my ability to use my reloads in any rifle, which is why I was "stubbornly arguing" in the first place? I felt that boxed ammo would have the same issues, but could be used in any rifle.

Thank you for communicating!

 

[918v]

I get what your are saying. Pity you couldn't have said it better before. I even tried Google and didn't get much good info either. I take pride in spreading what knowledge I have without trying to make the person look like a fool by asking the same question over and over without modification. To your point, all my guns are doing fine for me. That doesn't mean they couldn't be better - I'm sure they could. I am 76, pretty crippled up, hi bp and COPD, and the only fun I get any more is a 1 hour visit to an indoor gun range with one of my guns, then take it home, clean it, and reload the ones I shot. IMO, the best investment I ever made was the RCBS turret press with mutiple turret plates. I don't get a lot of use out of my Dillon Xl750 because once I had about a thousand rounds of each caliber, I don't do enough of each one to make the setup worth while. I have no idea how many reloads I'm supposed to get out of my brass - Some has 10 reloads, some has 7 and some that I don't shoot a lot have less. I have had to adjust my sizer dies to match the shoulder to my chamber for reliable feed and ejection, but that is the extent of it. I am sure my Son will get more involved because he has mentioned an interest in shooting steel. I felt that I had learned the basics with a lot of bang for the buck so that I could help new reloaders until they were ready to take the next step in knowledge and investment, which is where the experts come in. I still believe there is a place for both in the hobby and still have fun without making fun of someone with less knowledge.

So this is all my fault??? Thanks.

 

[nn8734]

THANK YOU!

YW

"Then lock it in place and index the die and lock ring with a marker and that’s the die you use for that rifle." Doesn't that seem counter productive to my ability to use my reloads in any rifle, which is why I was "stubbornly arguing" in the first place? I felt that boxed ammo would have the same issues, but could be used in any rifle.

Virgin brass will tolerate excessive stretch and the stresses that come with it but just that one time. After which, you want minimal stretch (.002 for bolt guns, .004 for gas guns).

Don’t be stubborn and choose the wrong hill to die on.

Once you get the gauge and comparator set, start segregating your fired brass by rifle and measure CH-ShD for each. If you’re lucky (and you very well could be) all your fired cases will measure the same so you can use the one die for all without having to adjust for the different rifles for that same cartridge. If not, you will need to adjust for each. Here’s how i index so can make adjustments easily (each black hash line equates to .002-.003 of shoulder bump in either direction.

Start keeping your fired brass stored in separate containers, labled with the rifle that fired the brass, CH-SD measurement reference value and the number of firings so you can keep track.

Here’s an example:

Hope this helps you get on track…

 

[dnchrist]

YW

Virgin brass will tolerate excessive stretch and the stresses that come with it but just that one time. After which, you want minimal stretch (.002 for bolt guns, .004 for gas guns).

Don’t be stubborn and choose the wrong hill to die on.

Once you get the gauge and comparator set, start segregating your fired brass by rifle and measure CH-ShD for each. If you’re lucky (and you very well could be) all your fired cases will measure the same so you can use the one die for all without having to adjust for the different rifles for that same cartridge. If not, you will need to adjust for each. Here’s how i index so can make adjustments easily (each black hash line equates to .002-.003 of shoulder bump in either direction.
View attachment 8021990

Start keeping your fired brass stored in separate containers, labled with the rifle that fired the brass, CH-SD measurement reference value and the number of firings so you can keep track.

Here’s an example:
View attachment 8021989

Hope this helps you get on track…

Thanks! I've got about a dozen YouTube videos to watch!

I'm currently storing brass deprimed and cleaned, but not sized. Most bins are full.