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Advanced Marksmanship Starting from scratch
- Thread starter 308sako
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Re: Starting from scratch
basics are always practiced, but i would keep what it is good and work on one thing at a time, ie straight back, or holding the trigger squeeze through recoil, spotting your own hits...
basics are always practiced, but i would keep what it is good and work on one thing at a time, ie straight back, or holding the trigger squeeze through recoil, spotting your own hits...
Re: Starting from scratch
A shooter who coaches themselves has an amateur for a teacher. Usually. Experts are not required,.
Find another shooter and coach each other. Both of you read up on the basics so you know what you're looking for.
Be prepared to shoot a lot, a .22LR can be especially helpful here.
Practice one facet of the shooting skills at a time. An amateur practices until they can get it right. A professional practices until they can't get it wrong.
Don't get hung up over accuracy. Being consistent is the goal. Improving consistently is even better. But expect performance to plateau, then advance.
Greg
A shooter who coaches themselves has an amateur for a teacher. Usually. Experts are not required,.
Find another shooter and coach each other. Both of you read up on the basics so you know what you're looking for.
Be prepared to shoot a lot, a .22LR can be especially helpful here.
Practice one facet of the shooting skills at a time. An amateur practices until they can get it right. A professional practices until they can't get it wrong.
Don't get hung up over accuracy. Being consistent is the goal. Improving consistently is even better. But expect performance to plateau, then advance.
Greg
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In an effort to improve my shooting skills I am wondering just how close to rock bottom should I begin to start all over the learning process, re-establishing the basics. Has anyone gone this route to attain a greater proficiency? </div></div>
I would say that the fundamentals of proper riflery has to be properly established and maintained (through constant practice). Practice and be very critical of yourself to gain insight and feedback to what you are doing right or wrong. My main game is NRA hipower, service rifle and sometimes match rifle across the course. NRA Classified Master and Distinguished Rifle Badge. I also do Long Range, NRA High master. But do you know what really tightens up my shooting technique, routine, and discipline while on the sights and trigger? Its shooting smallbore prone, especially in a match setting with a little extra pressure. The 50 meter and 100 yd targets are not as forgiving as the hipower targets, and will not tolerate any sloppiness. That is a little off call shot, sling tension shifts, sloppy on the trigger or taking a shot when the sights start to blur because I took too long, change in NPA...it will be a 9. Its not a "flyer", as many would like to call it. If you're really self critical, you'll find that most "flyers" are a direct result of a breakdown of the fundamentals, no matter how small. It really reinforces the discipline a shooter has to have if you are really trying to shoot a clean. The basics of sight alignment, breath and trigger control,NPA and a solid position, are applicable to all the disciplines of rifle shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In an effort to improve my shooting skills I am wondering just how close to rock bottom should I begin to start all over the learning process, re-establishing the basics. Has anyone gone this route to attain a greater proficiency? </div></div>
I would say that the fundamentals of proper riflery has to be properly established and maintained (through constant practice). Practice and be very critical of yourself to gain insight and feedback to what you are doing right or wrong. My main game is NRA hipower, service rifle and sometimes match rifle across the course. NRA Classified Master and Distinguished Rifle Badge. I also do Long Range, NRA High master. But do you know what really tightens up my shooting technique, routine, and discipline while on the sights and trigger? Its shooting smallbore prone, especially in a match setting with a little extra pressure. The 50 meter and 100 yd targets are not as forgiving as the hipower targets, and will not tolerate any sloppiness. That is a little off call shot, sling tension shifts, sloppy on the trigger or taking a shot when the sights start to blur because I took too long, change in NPA...it will be a 9. Its not a "flyer", as many would like to call it. If you're really self critical, you'll find that most "flyers" are a direct result of a breakdown of the fundamentals, no matter how small. It really reinforces the discipline a shooter has to have if you are really trying to shoot a clean. The basics of sight alignment, breath and trigger control,NPA and a solid position, are applicable to all the disciplines of rifle shooting.
Re: Starting from scratch
Shooting is just as much mental strain as it is physical manipulation and muscle memory. Start with the simple stuff and go from there, professional training like what RO offers would be a good way to kick it off.
I hear that having your testicles removed makes you more tactical... mall ninjas all go with the ken crotch look.
Shooting is just as much mental strain as it is physical manipulation and muscle memory. Start with the simple stuff and go from there, professional training like what RO offers would be a good way to kick it off.
I hear that having your testicles removed makes you more tactical... mall ninjas all go with the ken crotch look.
Re: Starting from scratch
There is a common theme with most of the upper level HM shooters in NRA highpower, smallbore. They either started at a young age or they shoot a ton of it as an adult. a decent 22 rifle with almost any standard velocity ammo will shoot X's all day at 50 yards. I think people don't want to do smallbore practice because it takes away their excuses for bad shots. Once you can really group a smallbore rifle the center shots just start to come easily with a centerfire gun.
Top level shooters just work harder at position reinforcement, trigger perfection and wind reading to get where they are. I think people that start shooting don't realize how much work there is to do without actually shooting, i.e. dryfire, to be a top level shooter.
There is a common theme with most of the upper level HM shooters in NRA highpower, smallbore. They either started at a young age or they shoot a ton of it as an adult. a decent 22 rifle with almost any standard velocity ammo will shoot X's all day at 50 yards. I think people don't want to do smallbore practice because it takes away their excuses for bad shots. Once you can really group a smallbore rifle the center shots just start to come easily with a centerfire gun.
Top level shooters just work harder at position reinforcement, trigger perfection and wind reading to get where they are. I think people that start shooting don't realize how much work there is to do without actually shooting, i.e. dryfire, to be a top level shooter.
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a common theme with most of the upper level HM shooters in NRA highpower, smallbore. They either started at a young age or they shoot a ton of it as an adult. a decent 22 rifle with almost any standard velocity ammo will shoot X's all day at 50 yards. I think people don't want to do smallbore practice because it takes away their excuses for bad shots. Once you can really group a smallbore rifle the center shots just start to come easily with a centerfire gun.
Top level shooters just work harder at position reinforcement, trigger perfection and wind reading to get where they are. I think people that start shooting don't realize how much work there is to do without actually shooting, i.e. dryfire, to be a top level shooter. </div></div>
Five drywall buckets worth of .308 for me to get my HM club pin.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a common theme with most of the upper level HM shooters in NRA highpower, smallbore. They either started at a young age or they shoot a ton of it as an adult. a decent 22 rifle with almost any standard velocity ammo will shoot X's all day at 50 yards. I think people don't want to do smallbore practice because it takes away their excuses for bad shots. Once you can really group a smallbore rifle the center shots just start to come easily with a centerfire gun.
Top level shooters just work harder at position reinforcement, trigger perfection and wind reading to get where they are. I think people that start shooting don't realize how much work there is to do without actually shooting, i.e. dryfire, to be a top level shooter. </div></div>
Five drywall buckets worth of .308 for me to get my HM club pin.
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In an effort to improve my shooting skills I am wondering just how close to rock bottom should I begin to start all over the learning process, re-establishing the basics. Has anyone gone this route to attain a greater proficiency? </div></div>
i don't know how it can actually be accomplished other than shooting support side. if you are already shooting, and want to literally "start from scratch" it's already a bit late, human nature will take over and you'll repeat the same stuff you've already been doing.
we've been shooting a support side rimfire match here in the rimfire section, and it has opened my eyes to how important the fundamentals are, as it now more or less is starting from scratch on the support side.
i'd have to say get a lot of trigger time in exclusively on the support side (economical with a rimfire) for a few weeks, then go back to the "normal side", making notes of what now feels "strange". this might lead to where you've slacked off on the fundamentals. support side would probably be as close as you can get to starting over again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In an effort to improve my shooting skills I am wondering just how close to rock bottom should I begin to start all over the learning process, re-establishing the basics. Has anyone gone this route to attain a greater proficiency? </div></div>
i don't know how it can actually be accomplished other than shooting support side. if you are already shooting, and want to literally "start from scratch" it's already a bit late, human nature will take over and you'll repeat the same stuff you've already been doing.
we've been shooting a support side rimfire match here in the rimfire section, and it has opened my eyes to how important the fundamentals are, as it now more or less is starting from scratch on the support side.
i'd have to say get a lot of trigger time in exclusively on the support side (economical with a rimfire) for a few weeks, then go back to the "normal side", making notes of what now feels "strange". this might lead to where you've slacked off on the fundamentals. support side would probably be as close as you can get to starting over again.
Re: Starting from scratch
I work on the basics with trigger pull and over all form in different platforms.
It does help to have someone else with you so they can watch and make suggestions on form and actions when shooting.
I watch others at the range as well to see what they shoot and some other smalls actions they make.
Most important is just have fun.
I work on the basics with trigger pull and over all form in different platforms.
It does help to have someone else with you so they can watch and make suggestions on form and actions when shooting.
I watch others at the range as well to see what they shoot and some other smalls actions they make.
Most important is just have fun.
Re: Starting from scratch
People like to pimp the flat range/traditional shooting sports like NRA/CMP Highpower, smallbore, and bullseye pistol, but for reinforcement of the fundamentals that transfer over to many other sports I challenge you to produce a better set of disciplines.
I've managed to scrape by and pick up HM cards with the service rifle at full course (200,300,600) and using the palma rifle at long range (800,900, 1k) in the last 9 months. Both are directly attributed to smallbore prone with the Anschutz as well as the 22 Service Rifle upper.
Once you begin to understand how repeatable pressure on the rifle affects its ability to produce a repeatable point of impact, the rest of your shooting will start to fall into place. Because of the increased barrel time of 22LR, even with its reduced recoil it produces enough rifle movement to make it MORE PICKY than center fire as far as pressure on the rifle goes.
I recently picked up the Ball gun and am having immediate success with it, just because I have the basics drilled into me coupled with a few discipline-specific techniques shared by a good pistol shooter. As far as basics transferring over to other disciplines, I can go shoot for fun about anything locally - precision rifle, action pistol, etc. - and put up scores in the top third of the pack, again because the basics carry me.
There are always the dedicated and gifted fanatics in the top single digit percent of the sport locally that run off and leave the rest. Being around them is an opportunity you should not pass up if your desire is to improve.
As I shared with the original poster via SB, the only secret to shooting is - there ARE NO secrets. Absolute mastery of the fundamentals and the ability to call on them upon demand is the chief skill set the top shooters possess. A big part of that is self diagnosis of issues with a deep tool kit of corrective measures, applied before the projectile leaves the muzzle, results in the consistent high scores.
People like to pimp the flat range/traditional shooting sports like NRA/CMP Highpower, smallbore, and bullseye pistol, but for reinforcement of the fundamentals that transfer over to many other sports I challenge you to produce a better set of disciplines.
I've managed to scrape by and pick up HM cards with the service rifle at full course (200,300,600) and using the palma rifle at long range (800,900, 1k) in the last 9 months. Both are directly attributed to smallbore prone with the Anschutz as well as the 22 Service Rifle upper.
Once you begin to understand how repeatable pressure on the rifle affects its ability to produce a repeatable point of impact, the rest of your shooting will start to fall into place. Because of the increased barrel time of 22LR, even with its reduced recoil it produces enough rifle movement to make it MORE PICKY than center fire as far as pressure on the rifle goes.
I recently picked up the Ball gun and am having immediate success with it, just because I have the basics drilled into me coupled with a few discipline-specific techniques shared by a good pistol shooter. As far as basics transferring over to other disciplines, I can go shoot for fun about anything locally - precision rifle, action pistol, etc. - and put up scores in the top third of the pack, again because the basics carry me.
There are always the dedicated and gifted fanatics in the top single digit percent of the sport locally that run off and leave the rest. Being around them is an opportunity you should not pass up if your desire is to improve.
As I shared with the original poster via SB, the only secret to shooting is - there ARE NO secrets. Absolute mastery of the fundamentals and the ability to call on them upon demand is the chief skill set the top shooters possess. A big part of that is self diagnosis of issues with a deep tool kit of corrective measures, applied before the projectile leaves the muzzle, results in the consistent high scores.
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humongo Spheres</div><div class="ubbcode-body">_9H, I am no amatuer having been a shooter/reloader for nearly 50 years, a worldwide sucessful hunter on several continents, worked for several years as a pistolsmith and firearms training officer during a very brief LEO stint. Business/capitalism just paid way better, and money is freedom of choice.
I really do appreciate your position and advice also I agree that trigger time in demanding conditions is all important to the finished product. As you also are well aware the final results on a target do not lie, I am not seeking excuses but rather method. I believe that has been provided here, once again thanks.</div></div>
I've trained a few folks, who, coming into the course I teach, were looking for refreshment. These folks thought they knew all there was to know about good shooting. But, usually, after the dust settles and the smoke clears, these folks are aware that, coming into the course, they actually did not know the first two things about good shooting. I think starting from scratch is a good idea-it's mature.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humongo Spheres</div><div class="ubbcode-body">_9H, I am no amatuer having been a shooter/reloader for nearly 50 years, a worldwide sucessful hunter on several continents, worked for several years as a pistolsmith and firearms training officer during a very brief LEO stint. Business/capitalism just paid way better, and money is freedom of choice.
I really do appreciate your position and advice also I agree that trigger time in demanding conditions is all important to the finished product. As you also are well aware the final results on a target do not lie, I am not seeking excuses but rather method. I believe that has been provided here, once again thanks.</div></div>
I've trained a few folks, who, coming into the course I teach, were looking for refreshment. These folks thought they knew all there was to know about good shooting. But, usually, after the dust settles and the smoke clears, these folks are aware that, coming into the course, they actually did not know the first two things about good shooting. I think starting from scratch is a good idea-it's mature.
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humongo Spheres</div><div class="ubbcode-body">_9H, I am no amatuer having been a shooter/reloader for nearly 50 years, a worldwide sucessful hunter on several continents, worked for several years as a pistolsmith and firearms training officer during a very brief LEO stint. Business/capitalism just paid way better, and money is freedom of choice.
I really do appreciate your position and advice also I agree that trigger time in demanding conditions is all important to the finished product. As you also are well aware the final results on a target do not lie, I am not seeking excuses but rather method. I believe that has been provided here, once again thanks. </div></div>
I think you should just lighten your trigger a lil bit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humongo Spheres</div><div class="ubbcode-body">_9H, I am no amatuer having been a shooter/reloader for nearly 50 years, a worldwide sucessful hunter on several continents, worked for several years as a pistolsmith and firearms training officer during a very brief LEO stint. Business/capitalism just paid way better, and money is freedom of choice.
I really do appreciate your position and advice also I agree that trigger time in demanding conditions is all important to the finished product. As you also are well aware the final results on a target do not lie, I am not seeking excuses but rather method. I believe that has been provided here, once again thanks. </div></div>
I think you should just lighten your trigger a lil bit.
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humongo Spheres</div><div class="ubbcode-body">_9H, I am no amatuer having been a shooter/reloader for nearly 50 years, a worldwide sucessful hunter on several continents, worked for several years as a pistolsmith and firearms training officer during a very brief LEO stint. Business/capitalism just paid way better, and money is freedom of choice.
I really do appreciate your position and advice also I agree that trigger time in demanding conditions is all important to the finished product. As you also are well aware the final results on a target do not lie, I am not seeking excuses but rather method. I believe that has been provided here, once again thanks. </div></div>
I think you should just lighten your trigger a lil bit.
</div></div>
ROTFL! Can you get them to go any lighter or crisper?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humongo Spheres</div><div class="ubbcode-body">_9H, I am no amatuer having been a shooter/reloader for nearly 50 years, a worldwide sucessful hunter on several continents, worked for several years as a pistolsmith and firearms training officer during a very brief LEO stint. Business/capitalism just paid way better, and money is freedom of choice.
I really do appreciate your position and advice also I agree that trigger time in demanding conditions is all important to the finished product. As you also are well aware the final results on a target do not lie, I am not seeking excuses but rather method. I believe that has been provided here, once again thanks. </div></div>
I think you should just lighten your trigger a lil bit.
ROTFL! Can you get them to go any lighter or crisper?
Re: Starting from scratch
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling,
I dont' get what your saying. I don't know what a drywall bucket is? Did you shoot zero .22 and your saying it doesn't help?</div></div>
It's a bucket which originally contained drywall mud.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling,
I dont' get what your saying. I don't know what a drywall bucket is? Did you shoot zero .22 and your saying it doesn't help?</div></div>
It's a bucket which originally contained drywall mud.
Re: Starting from scratch
The thing to understand is that the bullet, the target, the rifle, the shooter, and the environment consititue a closed system. Any inconsistency in any part between shots will alter the outcome.
We can only alter the environment via heroic measures, but we <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> exercise reasonable control over all the other factors.
Charles Ludwig/Sterling Shooter renders it all down to it's irreducible common denominator when he tells us that the bullet always goes where the barrel is pointed. Understanding how to get it pointed precisely identical as the bullet emerges from the muzzle for each shot is the goal. Understanding why it doesn't always do this is the lesson that renders the most value. Once this value is reaped, the resulting consistent performance can be applied against a closely observed changing environment.
Greg
The thing to understand is that the bullet, the target, the rifle, the shooter, and the environment consititue a closed system. Any inconsistency in any part between shots will alter the outcome.
We can only alter the environment via heroic measures, but we <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> exercise reasonable control over all the other factors.
Charles Ludwig/Sterling Shooter renders it all down to it's irreducible common denominator when he tells us that the bullet always goes where the barrel is pointed. Understanding how to get it pointed precisely identical as the bullet emerges from the muzzle for each shot is the goal. Understanding why it doesn't always do this is the lesson that renders the most value. Once this value is reaped, the resulting consistent performance can be applied against a closely observed changing environment.
Greg
