Starting Load Workup With Factory Ammo?

[Cole440]

I've looked into this a bit, but haven't found any compelling thoughts, so I thought I would pose the question to you all.

Do you think there is any utility in testing different bullets in factory ammo?


Here's what I mean: I've decided the bullet I have been working up a load with just isn't cutting it, so I am going to move on to testing other projectiles. Should I buy a box of bullets like I have before, do a ladder, record velocity and group sizes etc, etc. Or, should I go out and buy a couple different boxes of match ammo (think Hornady match, Federal GM) in a few different weights, then shoot those and pick the best performer to start working up a load with?

I can see good reasoning on both sides, but I was wondering if anyone else does something like this? It would definitely save time, components, and would keep me from having a bunch of bullets I'm not going to use laying around. But it costs money and potentially an extra range trip!

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The easiest way is to just use high quality bullets. Berger if possible.

Unless you're looking for extreme precision, or there's something wrong with the barrel......barrels don't just up and decide to not shoot a bullet well that other barrels and similar chambers do.

So, I'd just buy one of the top bullets everyone uses in the same cartridge you are using and be done with it. If you can't make the top end bullets perform, it's your loading and not the barrel. You'll chase you tail using that old school method of trying every bullet in your inventory.

 

[Cole440]

In general I would tend to agree with you, but my experience in this case has been different.

For the details, Im shooting the 142 SMK in a 6.5 Creedmoor. I have seen some good groups, but accuracy in general isn't great. I'm running Single digit SD's and my highest ES numbers are still considerably below 20 FPS. I'm running a 26" Criterion Barrel.

I know the rifle shoots, I've seen better results with other loads (120 SMK) but I am really looking for something heavier.

 

[Aftermath]

Have you tried varying the seating depth?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

In general I would tend to agree with you, but my experience in this case has been different.

For the details, Im shooting the 142 SMK in a 6.5 Creedmoor. I have seen some good groups, but accuracy in general isn't great. I'm running Single digit SD's and my highest ES numbers are still considerably below 20 FPS. I'm running a 26" Criterion Barrel.

I know the rifle shoots, I've seen better results with other loads (120 SMK) but I am really looking for something heavier.

You can't have single digit SD and ES considerably below 20 unless you have an SD of 3.33 or better. So, your sample size is too low to see your actual real ES.

How much seating depth variation have you tried?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I'd just find some Berger 140 or Hornady 140eld and work with powder and seating.

If both of those bullets don't work, I'd throw the barrel in the garbage. Just not worth the time to play musical components.

 

[Cole440]

You can't have single digit SD and ES considerably below 20 unless you have an SD of 3.33 or better. So, your sample size is too low to see your actual real ES.

How much seating depth variation have you tried?

Academically I would agree, however I’m just talking about the 3-5 shots per group I shot. I’m sure the actual ES is higher. I’m also comparing numbers from different groups.

I’ve done some seating depth variation, not extensively. I can pull out my notes and see. I just finished shooting a second powder charge ladder at the best seating depth.


Here’s where I am though (and my school of thought might be wrong). I was hoping to have a bullet that shot reasonably well to begin with and then we fine tune. With this particular load I feel like I’m trying to find the needle in the haystack. Most of my ladder groups are up near an inch which I’m just not super stoked on. It’s not so much that I can’t find a good load as much as I see the loads in general being lackluster. With other combinations in other rifles I’ve seen more consistency.


Also preface this by saying I’m not a super experienced shooter. But I’m also not brand new. I’m pretty confident in my ability to shoot groups under an inch consistently.

 

[Cole440]

I'd just find some Berger 140 or Hornady 140eld and work with powder and seating.

If both of those bullets don't work, I'd throw the barrel in the garbage. Just not worth the time to play musical components.

That’s where I’m at. I know some people love the 142 smk but I’ve also heard some feedback that other people have had issues.

My next plan is to go to a proven performer and see. I’m already running other known quantities. Alpha Brass, Rem BR primers, H4350.

Redding dies and mandrel sizing the necks, I anneal every firing, etc… I’m pretty confident in my reloading practices and the numbers seem to agree.

 

[supercorndogs]

The easiest way is to just use high quality bullets. Berger if possible.

Unless you're looking for extreme precision, or there's something wrong with the barrel......barrels don't just up and decide to not shoot a bullet well that other barrels and similar chambers do.

So, I'd just buy one of the top bullets everyone uses in the same cartridge you are using and be done with it. If you can't make the top end bullets perform, it's your loading and not the barrel. You'll chase you tail using that old school method of trying every bullet in your inventory.

You have never seen a barrel that wouldn't shoot a certain bullet? This would be news to me and I though pretty much common knowledge that if a barrel wasn't shooting try a diffrent bullet. My Kreiger barrel 308 does not like 155 Nosler CC bullets.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You have never seen a barrel that wouldn't shoot a certain bullet? This would be news to me and I though pretty much common knowledge that if a barrel wasn't shooting try a diffrent bullet. My Kreiger barrel 308 does not like 155 Nosler CC bullets.

Keep it in context. I said high quality. Nosler is definitely not on the same level as berger.

I haver never seen a barrel that didn't have something wrong with it that won't perform with Berger Hybrids or similar Berger bullets. I've also never seen a barrel without issues that wouldn't shoot 140 eld, 108 eld, etc.



I'd challenge anyone to send me a barrel that won't shoot Berger bullets well. I promise you that if it doesn't, there's something wrong.


I'd also love to hear someone explain exactly how a barrel with same (obviously not exactly same) chamber, same bore size, etc......."doesn't like" a bullet that is universally proven to work for most everyone. The only way is if something is drastically different about the barrel.

 

[supercorndogs]

Keep it in context. I said high quality. Nosler is definitely not on the same level as berger.

I haver never seen a barrel that didn't have something wrong with it that won't perform with Berger Hybrids or similar Berger bullets. I've also never seen a barrel without issues that wouldn't shoot 140 eld, 108 eld, etc.



I'd challenge anyone to send me a barrel that won't shoot Berger bullets well. I promise you that if it doesn't, there's something wrong.


I'd also love to hear someone explain exactly how a barrel with same (obviously not exactly same) chamber, same bore size, etc......."doesn't like" a bullet that is universally proven to work for most everyone. The only way is if something is drastically different about the barrel.

@frankgreen

What are your thoughts on this?

Edit I guess my phone won't do that. Could someone else tag frank green?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

@frankgreen

What are your thoughts on this?

Edit I guess my phone won't do that. Could someone else tag frank green?

@Frank Green

Just to keep the conversation simple (too many tangents and what ifs if not specific) when you see a barrel that won't shoot Berger bullets, what's your assessment of the reason/s?

Personally, the only times I've had this happen, the barrel was just not shooting anything consistent and the manufacturer replaced the barrel blank. Less than a handful of times. The rest of the times, customer brought barrel or rifle in, and it did fine. Was either user error on shooting or user error on loading. Or some sort of mechanical issue (scope, etc).

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Here's a semi-decent article on the subject. Kinda takes the easy way out saying "just the way it is." Take note they aren't saying some barrels won't shoot Bergers well. Just that you may find something better.

To clarify, I'm not saying that you won't find a bullet that performs better than Berger in a specific barrel. I'm saying that when everything is working properly, you should always be able to get berger bullets to perform acceptably. Somewhere in the 1/2-3/4 moa for 10 shots. Which is why I don't waste my time on too many other bullets.

Tuning Your Rifle by Switching Bullets – Oldest Secret in Firearms

If you are a discerning rifle shooter, this is information you need to know (if you don’t know it already). It is time to cut through the marketing confusion and talk about the truth when it comes to bullet performance. Every brand of bullets (and components, but for this article I am going to...

bergerbullets.com

 

[Frank Green]

@frankgreen

What are your thoughts on this?

Edit I guess my phone won't do that. Could someone else tag frank green?

Barrel, bullets and powder.... these are the three main things that have to work together. I'm going to leave the powder out of this for now and just talk barrels and bullets.

Barrel....every process for making a barrel can make good and can make bad barrels per se.... but this is what I say... "the straighter the barrel blank, the more uniform the twist and the more uniform the bore and groove sizes are and the more stress free the barrel is the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. This is not arguable but facts. These tend to favor cut rifled barrels." Why? Twist uniformity is better than all the other methods as well as bore and groove size uniformity as well as cut rifling doesn't induce stress into the blank.

Bullets.... I'm not going to try and name this or that bullet maker but bullet quality and if you will specifically bullet sizes are very important. I know one bullet makers match type bullets hold they're bullet sizes to .0002" to .0004" (that's over the .0000" spec. or if you will on a .30cal bullet .3082" to .3084") but another bullet maker on some of they're match bullets is min spec of .0000" to .0009" and I'll just stick with 30cal bullets for even numbers of .3080" to a +.0009" for size and that is the same lot of bullets! So based on just that.... guess which bullet maker I tend to use more than the other. That's a big difference in tolerances.

Now keep those numbers on bullet sizes above in the back of your mind. Now we have to factor in a given barrels bore and groove sizes and we will leave all the other stuff I said out in the 2nd paragraph and we will just focus on the bore and groove sizes. I've asked a couple different bullet makers/ammo makers this question... "How much does a bullet obturate or if you will grow in size when you hit the base of the bullet with 60k psi and then it gets slammed into the rifling grow in diameter?" No one has had hard numbers as how do you measure it? The best thoughts I could get was the bullet probably grows in size about +.001" and then will squeeze down to the bore/groove size of the barrel. Is that across the board for all bullets? Match, hunting, solid type bullets etc...? I don't know but I will stick with a lead core match type bullet. If this is true I believe the bullets uniformity for size from one bullet to the next in a given lot or if you will from lot to lot and couple that with a barrel that is closer to min spec for size is very critical.

So we make our barrels min spec for size +.0005" for tolerance. So a standard bore size 30cal barrel (not a tight bore barrel) would be .3000" +.0005" for the bore and .3080" +.0005" for the groove.

Now what if you have a barrel that measures .3010" for the bore size and .3090" for groove size (Yes I've seen and measure supposed match quality barrels from other makers that actually measured like this) and then you load one bullet that is at .3082" to .3084" for size and another brand of bullet that measures any where from .3080" to .3089" for size in the same lot. Which will shoot the best? Which bullet might be subject to bullet failures or funky flight characteristics? Give me those two choices I'll take the bullet maker that his holding they're spec. to .3082" to .3084" any day of the week but either bullet could shoot like a million bucks but I'll take the tighter more consistent spec any day of the week as my go to choice.

Now lets bounce back to the barrels again....besides a tight or large bore size spec... lets say you have a barrel with tight/loose spots down the length of the bore of the barrel. Once that bullet swages down to the bore/groove size back at the throat and then say in a spot or several spots in the bore it gets bigger and then tighter again etc... once that bullet swages down to size it cannot and will not get bigger again to fit that loose spot in the bore because as the bullet travels down the bore of the barrel the pressure is dropping the whole time. There is nothing there per se to hammer it back bigger again when it hits a loose spot.

Uniformity of the bullets sizes and uniformity of the barrel are going to be king! No way around it.

Powder... don't know enough about it other than we all know some types of powder work better than other types of powder in a given cartridge and not to mention case fill capacity etc... for a given burn rate. I do feel myself right now... there is a shortage of powder as we all know and I also feel quality of powder is being questioned now more than ever but the powder along with the bullet and the barrel all have to work together.

Now some of you wonder why the crack pot short range bench shooters especially the guys at the top are making they're own bullets. They are trying to control one of the variables by making the bullet more consistent in sizes etc...

My .02 for the long winded reply!

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

On a similar note with this just last week I asked a ammunition/bullet maker what they see with our barrels in regards to consistency's with pressure and velocities. This is because another ammo maker is having problems with pressures and velocities and I told them It's not with the barrels because one of the test barrels was made 2.5 years before the others and all of them are doing the same thing. I told them I think you have a ammo problem. They agreed but wanted to send the barrels back to us to just double check/remeasure everything. So then I called another ammo maker about this and they said the same thing. Sounds like a ammo or a calibration issue with the equipment.

They said our barrels typically are with in a pressure correction of 1500psi and an average velocity of 15fps from one barrel to the next. That shows consistency in the barrel and quality etc... from barrel to barrel that we make.

So what I'm saying here is don't skimp on quality. Doesn't matter if it's bullets or barrels etc... skimp on quality and you will find more inconsistencies/issues.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

That echos our basic philosophy. We only use barrels known for being consist (lots of Bartlein obviously). We only use bullets known for consistency (almost always berger if we can). We only use powders well known to perform in the specific cartridge.

When you do that, it's very rare that your ammo won't perform well. So much so, that when it doesn't perform well, there is an issue with one or more of the components. Not just a random "every barrel is different." In our experience, if it seems different, it's because it is and not in a good way. Doesn't mean another bullet won't shoot as well or better. Just that the better bullets overwhelmingly work better across the board. If you're shooting a benchrest. discipline, that's different and you're going to be shooting custom bullets. F class, most teams have a bullet they like, and if it doesn't perform to their requirement, the sit the barrel aside and get another that works with the bullet. They are changing barrels, not the bullet. And it still shot well enough to easily be more than enough for practical shooting, just not their requirement for F class.


The end result: take a bullet out the yellow box, put it in a case that comes out a blue box, and put them in a barrel that came from Wisconsin.

If it doesn't shoot plenty well for non BR/F class disciplines, you're either doing something wrong with the ammo, or one or more component has an issue.

 

[Ledzep]

As Frank said, it's largely a game of component matching powder, bullets, and barrels. The minutia of it all is dizzying sometimes and frankly I'm not aware of anyone that knows exactly the fundamental "Why" of what makes a particular combination of components awesome or horrible. There is some chemistry involved that is over my pay grade for getting consistent temperature and velocity spread performance from powders. Stuff like the new StaBall Match/HD ball powders and the Hodgdon Extreme line from ADI are a couple great examples of top-level performance in that regard, but I've still seen Varget produce knotholes in one barrel, and shotgun patterns in the next (okay not really, but 1.5-2.5 MOA... Not "pretty" for precision rifle work).

Just as an example, here's snippets from our 200yd acoustic target. The bullets are 6.5mm 135gr A-tips from the same lot (same box) in a 6.5 Creedmoor. Same bullets, same barrel, similar velocity, not horrible velocity ES on either, but different powders and very different levels of dispersion performance.

So do I think the OP's idea is a good one? Not really.

Occasionally you will find a combination of bullet and barrel that just loves each other so much that you can toss any amount of any combustible material in the case and it will pound knotholes, but most of the time you can see the variation as shown above by swapping through the list of powders that load data exists for.

You can see the exact same behavior by picking a powder and swapping through different bullet types. You can very easily run into combinations of bullet+barrel that will not shoot good groups regardless of what powder you use, but I have barrels that will shoot 108 ELD-M's at 1.25-1.5 MOA with Varget, but will knothole 110's and 109's with the same charge weight into .6-.7 MOA.

So by swapping through various types of factory ammo, you're not holding anything steady. You're testing random powder and bullet combinations, and odds are you don't know what powder is being used in the factory ammo. You're more lost than you currently are.

When approaching a new barrel and/or new cartridge, this is what I do to sort it out.

- Pick 2-3 powders for that cartridge that seem popular (they probably are for a reason)
- Pick a few bullets I think I'd like to shoot
- Load 10x rounds of however many combinations I care to try 1-2gr under book max load

Shoot those 10-shot groups and those will tell you which combinations are going to "try" to work for you. Do further powder charge testing or seating depth testing from there.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

As Frank said, it's largely a game of component matching powder, bullets, and barrels. The minutia of it all is dizzying sometimes and frankly I'm not aware of anyone that knows exactly the fundamental "Why" of what makes a particular combination of components awesome or horrible. There is some chemistry involved that is over my pay grade for getting consistent temperature and velocity spread performance from powders. Stuff like the new StaBall Match/HD ball powders and the Hodgdon Extreme line from ADI are a couple great examples of top-level performance in that regard, but I've still seen Varget produce knotholes in one barrel, and shotgun patterns in the next (okay not really, but 1.5-2.5 MOA... Not "pretty" for precision rifle work).

Just as an example, here's snippets from our 200yd acoustic target. The bullets are 6.5mm 135gr A-tips from the same lot (same box) in a 6.5 Creedmoor. Same bullets, same barrel, similar velocity, not horrible velocity ES on either, but different powders and very different levels of dispersion performance.

View attachment 8324628
View attachment 8324629

So do I think the OP's idea is a good one? Not really.

Occasionally you will find a combination of bullet and barrel that just loves each other so much that you can toss any amount of any combustible material in the case and it will pound knotholes, but most of the time you can see the variation as shown above by swapping through the list of powders that load data exists for.

You can see the exact same behavior by picking a powder and swapping through different bullet types. You can very easily run into combinations of bullet+barrel that will not shoot good groups regardless of what powder you use, but I have barrels that will shoot 108 ELD-M's at 1.25-1.5 MOA with Varget, but will knothole 110's and 109's with the same charge weight into .6-.7 MOA.

So by swapping through various types of factory ammo, you're not holding anything steady. You're testing random powder and bullet combinations, and odds are you don't know what powder is being used in the factory ammo. You're more lost than you currently are.

When approaching a new barrel and/or new cartridge, this is what I do to sort it out.

- Pick 2-3 powders for that cartridge that seem popular (they probably are for a reason)
- Pick a few bullets I think I'd like to shoot
- Load 10x rounds of however many combinations I care to try 1-2gr under book max load

Shoot those 10-shot groups and those will tell you which combinations are going to "try" to work for you. Do further powder charge testing or seating depth testing from there.

Have you ever found known combinations to completely not work?

IE:

BR or BR variant with varget and 105/109 berger
6cm with 4350 and 105/109 berger
6.5cm with 4350 and 140 berger
300 prc with N570 and berger and/or atip

Etc etc.


Not asking if you found something that might shoot better in a specific barrel. But that it just doesn't work enough you're changing bullets and/or power.

 

[Ledzep]

Have you ever found known combinations to completely not work?

IE:

BR or BR variant with varget and 105/109 berger
6cm with 4350 and 105/109 berger
6.5cm with 4350 and 140 berger
300 prc with N570 and berger and/or atip

Etc etc.


Not asking if you found something that might shoot better in a specific barrel. But that it just doesn't work enough you're changing bullets and/or power.

You've asked a Hornady guy about a bunch of Berger performance

We've shot a bunch of everyone's bullets of the years for various different projects/reasons, but I don't have enough data in those combinations to really tell you anything. I've tried Bergers in some of my rifles and they shot a little better than the load I'd worked up with ELD-M's, but I've also shot Bergers and had it considerably worse. It's not a problem with the bullet-- again it's the total combination of bullet+powder+barrel. That could be best in a given rifle with Berger, Sierra, Hornady, Lapua..... Just gotta try stuff out and run with what works best. Obviously I'm in a position to make Hornady work for me.

From our line-up, absolutely I've seen 110's and Varget not work in a 6mm ARC barrel, so I've swapped to 108's and it worked much better. I've seen in a 6.5 creedmoor 140 ELD-M's and H4350 not work so great, but RL-16 hammers. I have had a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel that didn't work with Varget, RL-16, H4350 and 2 different match bullets so I threw it away. And I've done the same with a 6mm ARC barrel that gave no love with 2 good powders and 3 good bullets. Maybe I could have found something different/better but I wasn't in the mood (They were 'budget' match-grade barrels) Now in between those failures are probably 10-15 barrels that ran 140's and H4350 or 110's and Varget like you'd expect.

The "Go-to" combinations usually work, but occasionally a barrel will flunk the go-to combination and still be capable of shooting the same bullets very well with a different powder or visa versa.

Hopefully that's clear as mud and answers your question.

 

[Ledzep]

As an aside, a guy should stockpile a few pounds of the following when/where you can for various cartridges:

Temp stable:
Benchmark
H322
H4895
Varget
H4350
H4831
H1000
Retumbo
RL-16
RL-26
Sta-Ball Match
Sta-Ball HD

A little less temp stable, but
IMR 4064
IMR 4895
8208 XBR
RL-19
RL-23

ETA: Vhitavouri is out of my wheel-house. Just never messed with them personally but I know they've got great potential.

 

[Frank Green]

If it hasn't been mentioned here but it has been mentioned in the past... don't always be a velocity whore. I know we all like the highest velocity etc... but go for the accuracy first. If the gun shoots 1/3moa but you are running it at a 100fps slower velocity. I'll take that over the higher velocity but the gun shoots .8moa.

I wanted to beat a guy on the phone one time when at 2775 to 2800fps his 180 Bergers being shot out of a 280AI hunting rifle shot around 1/3moa but he wanted 2900fps and when he pushed it to 2900fps it shot bigger than 3/4moa and he wanted me to replace the barrel and didn't like it when I told him... it's not the barrel. It's your load and the tune window your in/out of for that load combination. He was all worried that he needed the higher velocity to shoot whitetail deer with the rifle and insisted that he needed 2900fps! Just killing me on the phone!

I told him the deer isn't going to know the difference of a 100fps on the bullet slamming into it. Put a couple extra clicks on the scope and run with it!

I still told him I wasn't replacing the barrel. LOL! He didn't like me!

 

[Cole440]

As Frank said, it's largely a game of component matching powder, bullets, and barrels. The minutia of it all is dizzying sometimes and frankly I'm not aware of anyone that knows exactly the fundamental "Why" of what makes a particular combination of components awesome or horrible. There is some chemistry involved that is over my pay grade for getting consistent temperature and velocity spread performance from powders. Stuff like the new StaBall Match/HD ball powders and the Hodgdon Extreme line from ADI are a couple great examples of top-level performance in that regard, but I've still seen Varget produce knotholes in one barrel, and shotgun patterns in the next (okay not really, but 1.5-2.5 MOA... Not "pretty" for precision rifle work).

Just as an example, here's snippets from our 200yd acoustic target. The bullets are 6.5mm 135gr A-tips from the same lot (same box) in a 6.5 Creedmoor. Same bullets, same barrel, similar velocity, not horrible velocity ES on either, but different powders and very different levels of dispersion performance.

View attachment 8324628
View attachment 8324629

So do I think the OP's idea is a good one? Not really.

Occasionally you will find a combination of bullet and barrel that just loves each other so much that you can toss any amount of any combustible material in the case and it will pound knotholes, but most of the time you can see the variation as shown above by swapping through the list of powders that load data exists for.

You can see the exact same behavior by picking a powder and swapping through different bullet types. You can very easily run into combinations of bullet+barrel that will not shoot good groups regardless of what powder you use, but I have barrels that will shoot 108 ELD-M's at 1.25-1.5 MOA with Varget, but will knothole 110's and 109's with the same charge weight into .6-.7 MOA.

So by swapping through various types of factory ammo, you're not holding anything steady. You're testing random powder and bullet combinations, and odds are you don't know what powder is being used in the factory ammo. You're more lost than you currently are.

When approaching a new barrel and/or new cartridge, this is what I do to sort it out.

- Pick 2-3 powders for that cartridge that seem popular (they probably are for a reason)
- Pick a few bullets I think I'd like to shoot
- Load 10x rounds of however many combinations I care to try 1-2gr under book max load

Shoot those 10-shot groups and those will tell you which combinations are going to "try" to work for you. Do further powder charge testing or seating depth testing from there.

Good stuff, and you answered the question. I was thinking the same, I could also throw another powder under the current bullet and see what happens, but I have 8# of H4350 so I'd really rather change bullets.

 

[Cole440]

@Frank Green check this out.

This was my thread BTW and this is the same rifle. These are the things that start to make me wonder.

Gunsmithing - Marks in Barrel

You know what they say don't you? Don't start looking in there with a borescope or you'll find something! Anybody have any ideas what this mark is? if I didn't know any better I would say it looks like porosity in the blank or something... This is a button rifled barrel from a reputable mfg...

www.snipershide.com

Here is an updated link to the video since the old one appears to have died

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green check this out.

This was my thread BTW and this is the same rifle. These are the things that start to make me wonder.

Gunsmithing - Marks in Barrel

You know what they say don't you? Don't start looking in there with a borescope or you'll find something! Anybody have any ideas what this mark is? if I didn't know any better I would say it looks like porosity in the blank or something... This is a button rifled barrel from a reputable mfg...

www.snipershide.com

Here is an updated link to the video since the old one appears to have died

Well it looks like it's just past the throat. Could be cleaning damage or from when the barrel was made.

If it's shooting good.... don't look at it. If the barrel is giving you fits.... that's probably your problem.

Later, Frank

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

@Frank Green check this out.

This was my thread BTW and this is the same rifle. These are the things that start to make me wonder.

Gunsmithing - Marks in Barrel

You know what they say don't you? Don't start looking in there with a borescope or you'll find something! Anybody have any ideas what this mark is? if I didn't know any better I would say it looks like porosity in the blank or something... This is a button rifled barrel from a reputable mfg...

www.snipershide.com

Here is an updated link to the video since the old one appears to have died

This is what I'm describing. If you're running known loads with known bullets that seem to work for everyone.......and you're having an abnormally hard time, something is wrong.

 

[Cole440]

This is what I'm describing. If you're running known loads with known bullets that seem to work for everyone.......and you're having an abnormally hard time, something is wrong.

In a sense I see what you're saying, but I also fail to see how testing one bullet and powder combination is dispositive of a barrels overall ability.

Especially when I have seen the same setup shoot under 1/2 inch with a different combination of components. Sure, maybe that half inch wasn't going to be repeatable over hundreds of rounds, and maybe my random book load magically hit all of the sweet spots; but the odds of getting a defective barrel that shoots ~1 inch consistently and shooting a >3 shot group that's under a half an inch seems statistically improbable to me. Especially not when all of the "ifs" have to line up in my favor.

I'm not opposed to trying a box of Bergers but I've been casually looking for 144 and 140 hybrids since the Spring of 2021 and have yet to see any. I have a hard time spending $0.75 a projectile and the cost to work up a load when they aren't even something I can get consistently.

Square all that with the fact that I'm not competing and just doing this for fun. I don't need a barrel that shoots this bullet well, I don't have a stake in this particular bullet or load, and I don't need the groups as tight as the F Class guys. I just want to see my moneys worth from this rifle. If that means shooting a different projectile, then I'm fine with that.

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone.

 

[Ledzep]

This is what I'm describing. If you're running known loads with known bullets that seem to work for everyone.......and you're having an abnormally hard time, something is wrong.

In general, I would say it's cause for some concern, but not an outright "This barrel is fucked". A bad/"meh" H4350 experience is RL-16 away from being a hammer in many cases IME. Now if Bergers, Hornady, and Sierras all shoot like shit with H4350, RL-16, and an appropriate VV powder, you're in trouble.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

In general, I would say it's cause for some concern, but not an outright "This barrel is fucked". A bad/"meh" H4350 experience is RL-16 away from being a hammer in many cases IME. Now if Bergers, Hornady, and Sierras all shoot like shit with H4350, RL-16, and an appropriate VV powder, you're in trouble.

I'm sure I, and our shop is the product of a small sample size. Even if it's hundreds of barrels, that's still not even close to two numbers right of a decimal of the amount of barrels out there.

But, thus far, out of any fairly modern cartridge (disclaimer, we don't do many .270, 30-06, 25-06 or almost any Weatherby cartridges and the like) the only time we've ever had an issue with any common powder/bullet combo was with some .30 cal solids (which is a whole other thing anyway). Or it wouldn't shoot anything and barrel was replaced (very rare).

Most of that is with Bergers, but we also do a fair amount of A-tips and the occasional ELD. Decent amount of ELD-X since we do mostly hunting rifles. For 6.5 and 6cm, it's always N160 or H4350 and have never needed to switch, just use whatever we can find or have enough to do a batch with. All 6br variants, 6gt, 6x47 have been with Varget (have plenty n150 and n140, just haven't cracked it open). And all the PRC and larger N570, N568, N165.

Obviously a company such as your employer is going to see quite a few more barrels than most anyone. So it's very possible we have just been fortunate with our variance and the math may kick us in the teeth at some point in the future. (and final disclaimer, we are only looking for around .5moa and obviously anything better is a bonus. We aren't attempting to stay in the .25-.3 or less area).

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Especially when I have seen the same setup shoot under 1/2 inch with a different combination of components. Sure, maybe that half inch wasn't going to be repeatable over hundreds of rounds, and maybe my random book load magically hit all of the sweet spots; but the odds of getting a defective barrel that shoots ~1 inch consistently and shooting a >3 shot group that's under a half an inch seems statistically improbable to me.

I might be reading this wrong, but if you're saying that a "bad" barrel that usually shoots 1moa or worse won't sometimes shoot smaller groups.....I can assure you that is definitely not the case.

I can show you targets that were shot with almost completely shot out barrels, tons of throat erosion, fire cracking throughout.......that you would shoot several groups with and you'd still get one here and there that is a ragged hole .5 or less.

As you have to keep in mind, if it's shooting say 1.5 moa......that means every shot fired can land somewhere randomly inside that 1.5moa. So, the odds of a string of shots landing very close together inside that 1.5moa is not very low. It will and does happen quite often. That's the nature of dispersion which if nothing else, I'm sure Ledzep would agree mostly.


Just the mere fact that the barrel in question is shooting 1.5 or 1moa normally.....by default means that you *have* to have some shot strings that group very tight as they are included in that 1.5 or 1moa.

Thinking about it this way, what would actually be statistically improbable would be the barrel never or almost never shoots .5 or better. Since that would mean all the shots always group on the outer limits of the angular circle.....and never towards the center. That would be the improbable part.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Here's a very crude illustration. Let's say the upper left is 1.5moa and that's how the rifle shoots. For whatever reason, doesn't matter.

All those 3 and 5 shot groups you see to the right were just copy/pasted out of the big group. And they are all groups you may see when you shoot 3 or 5 shots. As they are all included in the dispersion.

So, it may sound counterintuitive that a rifle shooting 1.5moa may quite often, or at least not rarely, produce good groups.

 

[Cole440]

Here's a very crude illustration. Let's say the upper left is 1.5moa and that's how the rifle shoots. For whatever reason, doesn't matter.

All those 3 and 5 shot groups you see to the right were just copy/pasted out of the big group. And they are all groups you may see when you shoot 3 or 5 shots. As they are all included in the dispersion.

So, it may sound counterintuitive that a rifle shooting 1.5moa may quite often, or at least not rarely, produce good groups.


View attachment 8326086

Again, academically I agree with you. But I think we’re talking past each other. I’m happy to elaborate more but that’s not my largest concern because I don’t want to shoot that other load anyway.

Let me pose the question to you then, what would you do given the situation as you see it? Try a new bullet? New powder? Or rebarrel?

 

[Ledzep]

I'm sure I, and our shop is the product of a small sample size. Even if it's hundreds of barrels, that's still not even close to two numbers right of a decimal of the amount of barrels out there.

But, thus far, out of any fairly modern cartridge (disclaimer, we don't do many .270, 30-06, 25-06 or almost any Weatherby cartridges and the like) the only time we've ever had an issue with any common powder/bullet combo was with some .30 cal solids (which is a whole other thing anyway). Or it wouldn't shoot anything and barrel was replaced (very rare).

Most of that is with Bergers, but we also do a fair amount of A-tips and the occasional ELD. Decent amount of ELD-X since we do mostly hunting rifles. For 6.5 and 6cm, it's always N160 or H4350 and have never needed to switch, just use whatever we can find or have enough to do a batch with. All 6br variants, 6gt, 6x47 have been with Varget (have plenty n150 and n140, just haven't cracked it open). And all the PRC and larger N570, N568, N165.

Obviously a company such as your employer is going to see quite a few more barrels than most anyone. So it's very possible we have just been fortunate with our variance and the math may kick us in the teeth at some point in the future. (and final disclaimer, we are only looking for around .5moa and obviously anything better is a bonus. We aren't attempting to stay in the .25-.3 or less area).

Yeah between bullet accuracy test barrels, ammo P&V barrels, and radar/GP barrels we keep Frank and a couple others busy

Outright duds are exceptionally rare, but I've seen a handful now that didn't like our 'standard' accuracy load, but when tried with different powders shot just fine. Those usually end up being radar test barrels or on one of the shoulder-fired test rigs. Most work pretty consistently with the standard, though.

 

[Cole440]

Let me pose the question to you then, what would you do given the situation as you see it? Try a new bullet? New powder? Or rebarrel?

@Rio Precision Gunworks

I saw you over on the Labradar thread, fun stuff. Reminded me of this. Thanks for the insight by the way.

 

[Cole440]

Well, I have a box of Berger 140 Hybrids on the way to try.

 

[Cole440]

 

[Cole440]

Well here is the data from the range now that I had a chance to get out and shoot the Bergers.

So here's the thing. I used the Eric Cortina "jam method" to find the oal, then I backed off 20 thou from there, and that didn't really work out. Somehow I ended up with some bullets that were off the lands and quite a few that were jammed. So I'm not sure if I was just right on the edge and some were hitting and some weren't. Another possibility is that the tips of the Bergers are hitting the inside of the seating stem on my seating die. So I need to look into that more.

Some of the flyers I was able to predict as soon as I closed the bolt and knew I was smashing the bullet into the lands when none of the others in that group were touching. I think the higher SD and ES than I was running with the last bullet might also be related to that issue. I'm pretty damn confident I didn't pull the flyer in the 42 group. Certainly not that far out.

In any case, I see some promising areas to investigate, and I think it will only get better with the OAL worked out. I'll probably just run with powder at 41.7 and go mess with OAL.

Any thoughts on what I'm seeing here?

 

[Frank Green]

Well here is the data from the range now that I had a chance to get out and shoot the Bergers.

So here's the thing. I used the Eric Cortina "jam method" to find the oal, then I backed off 20 thou from there, and that didn't really work out. Somehow I ended up with some bullets that were off the lands and quite a few that were jammed. So I'm not sure if I was just right on the edge and some were hitting and some weren't. Another possibility is that the tips of the Bergers are hitting the inside of the seating stem on my seating die. So I need to look into that more.

Some of the flyers I was able to predict as soon as I closed the bolt and knew I was smashing the bullet into the lands when none of the others in that group were touching. I think the higher SD and ES than I was running with the last bullet might also be related to that issue. I'm pretty damn confident I didn't pull the flyer in the 42 group. Certainly not that far out.

In any case, I see some promising areas to investigate, and I think it will only get better with the OAL worked out. I'll probably just run with powder at 41.7 and go mess with OAL.

Any thoughts on what I'm seeing here?

Besides measuring the oal of the bullet itself... check and measure the base to ogive dimension and see how consistent they are.

The seating stem of your die could be causing a variance in how consistent you are with the bullet in relation to where it is to the throat of the chamber but the bullets themselves could be varying quite a bit as well and will effect your seating depth in relation to the throat.

 

[RUN8]

The end result: take a bullet out the yellow box, put it in a case that comes out a blue box, and put them in a barrel that came from Wisconsin.

If it doesn't shoot plenty well for non BR/F class disciplines, you're either doing something wrong with the ammo, or one or more component has an issue.

Not to side track this but I have a question maybe you can help me with in regards to bullets from the yellow box in brass from the blue box, and their relationship with a barrel from Wisconsin.

So I have this AT-X in 6.5mm Creedmoor, barrel is a Bartlein. I bought a quantity of Berger factory ammo to build up some Lapua brass, figuring why not get brass that way and test out Berger 140gr and 144gr OTM hybrids?

I also bought some various weights of Hornady ELD-M.

So far the Hornady ELD-M stuff is more consistent and tighter grouping than the Berger factory ammo.

For example this is pretty representative of what the Berger 140gr or 144gr will typically do:

While Hornady 140gr ELD-M produce results like this:

I would like to try loading some Berger bullets, but I’m curious where you would start with seating depth vs the factory ammo? Are the Berger OTM hybrids more sensitive to seating depth than Hornady ELD-M? Did I just stumble onto a favorable factory ammo loaded length that this barrel and chamber really like in the case of the ELD-M and not so much with the Berger?

 

[Cole440]

Not to side track this but I have a question maybe you can help me with in regards to bullets from the yellow box in brass from the blue box, and their relationship with a barrel from Wisconsin.

So I have this AT-X in 6.5mm Creedmoor, barrel is a Bartlein. I bought a quantity of Berger factory ammo to build up some Lapua brass, figuring why not get brass that way and test out Berger 140gr and 144gr OTM hybrids?

I also bought some various weights of Hornady ELD-M.

So far the Hornady ELD-M stuff is more consistent and tighter grouping than the Berger factory ammo.

For example this is pretty representative of what the Berger 140gr or 144gr will typically do:

View attachment 8347300

While Hornady 140gr ELD-M produce results like this:

View attachment 8347303

I would like to try loading some Berger bullets, but I’m curious where you would start with seating depth vs the factory ammo? Are the Berger OTM hybrids more sensitive to seating depth than Hornady ELD-M? Did I just stumble onto a favorable factory ammo loaded length that this barrel and chamber really like in the case of the ELD-M and not so much with the Berger?

My guess, based on my experience and what everyone has offered in this thread, is that you probably just stumbled onto a favorable load.

My OAL with the bergers is problematic as I mentioned and I’m still getting groups at 5/8. They’re notoriously not super sensitive to oal changes.

Now if you’re not dead set on bergers you could definitely work up a load with Hornady bullets and save some $!

 

[Cole440]

Besides measuring the oal of the bullet itself... check and measure the base to ogive dimension and see how consistent they are.

The seating stem of your die could be causing a variance in how consistent you are with the bullet in relation to where it is to the throat of the chamber but the bullets themselves could be varying quite a bit as well and will effect your seating depth in relation to the throat.

Yup, I’m currently basing everything on a base to ogive length. Good tips, when I have more time I’m going to go to town with the caliper and see what’s up.

I’m just happy to see that I’ve got some groups around 5/8 with known issues. I’m hoping if I fix the issues and mess with seating depth a little I can clean those up even more!