PRS Talk Still Wobbly - Can't break the Shakes

[MDof2]

I feel like a dope fiend who's drying up on match day with the shakes when trying to get on target on certain barricades. So I'm reaching out to the local community for some pointers on dry fire practice and or live fire drills to work out some kinks.

Me: Shot a fair bit of F Class and Bench rest. I do well on the prone style COF's so long as generally speaking I'm off a bipod and a fairly stable footing (laying down / sitting / etc.) but not kneeling or standing. I understand wind calls, dialing dope, I've got good dope, kestrel, decent gear, fortune cookies and game changers, etc. but when I get to a stage with a COF that reaches out 500+ and 8" steels or whatever and I'm not in a locked down prone position, I bounce all over. A couple stages in various matches (humbling as they have been) I didn't get a single shot off because I wasn't confident I was going to impact.
After my first match or two I took the advice I gave my son as a coach for him in baseball. (he's a little swing happy). To which I said, if you're going to strike out, fine. But you *better* be striking out on strikes, not balls. So my advice to myself, was I'd rather time out with 4 rounds fired & 4 impacts, rather than time out with 10 rounds fired and 4 impacts. (if that makes any sense)

I've looked at a few of the dry fire systems like the DFS Focus Adapter with the range poster that hangs on the wall, buried myself in youtube videos, studied others for technique, spectated several matches just to watch and learn. I'm looking at live training on PRS disciplined shooting, and planning it once someone has something
scheduled within a few hundred miles of me (MI / IN / OH / KY / WI / PA).

So in the meantime, anyone that can offer some tips, pointers, or ideas on working out the shakes, I'd be most appreciative. Until the next training class is scheduled within few hour drive, or I can hire someone local for a couple cash hundoballs to spend a couple hours with me at the range, I'm building a proper barricade to practice on to get some dry fire exercise.

Appreciate any tips or pointers in the right direction.

 

[samb300]

Wide angle lens:

Go to the range, or your basement with a DFAT, without ammo and test everything for yourself to see what your wobble looks like on a 2 moa target.

The things I have found that mattered, which can be VERY subtle
- Rifle balance (want it 3-ish inches in front of the magwell)
- Rifle fit
——- Length of pull (Usually too long)
——- Cheek piece (Usually too high)
——- Hand placement (usually trigger finger isn’t 90 degrees)
- Bag (test every bag you have on every prop you can find. You might be surprised which ones are more stable with your rifle stock)
- Support hand placement (on top of the scope objective vs in front on the stock/bridge/barrel). If the rifle is really butt-heavy it will make this way more difficult.
- Body placement: subtle changes can make big differences. Squaring up and pressing into the barricade vs blading and using a soft shoulder. Foot/hip placement when in a “one knee up” position like the lower portion of a barricade. I have found moving my foot and hip and make a difference, and also depends on your flexibility.
- Natural point of aim: your wobble might be a shitty NPA resulting in you fighting it the whole time. Easy way to check is get into position and on target through the scope. Close your eyes for a breath, then open your eyes. If you’re off the target, shift your body placement and repeat.

 

[MDof2]

- Natural point of aim: your wobble might be a shitty NPA resulting in you fighting it the whole time. Easy way to check is get into position and on target through the scope. Close your eyes for a breath, then open your eyes. If you’re off the target, shift your body placement and repeat.

I like this...... I like the other items, but this raises my eyebrows to see where I am on this....

 

[samb300]

I like this...... I like the other items, but this raises my eyebrows to see where I am on this....

Check your LOP and scope placement too. Shooting positional requires a shorter LOP than dedicated prone.

It might be eye opening in both prone and positional to check your NPA. Closing your eyes for a breathing cycle in any position will really expose your body placement. Once you get a feel for it, you’ll start to inherently reduce your wobble. Then you can start to practice getting into a position quickly and having your NPA be on target already. It will then make more sense when you see guys cranking off 10 impacts from 5 positions in 90 seconds.

Good luck!

 

[MDof2]

LOP I'm pretty confident on the geometry being correct but will revisit. From prone, NPA I'm confident on and shoot about what I'd expect on those COF's, but this coming from shooting a fair amount of prone / long range in the past. Getting into positional COF's off barricades, rocks, barrels, hood of car, logs, etc. is what just kills me.

If every COF were 'shooter starts standing, bag in hand, etc. then drop to prone, shoot it / rinse repeat" then it'd be a different conversation.

And maybe this is something that once you do several thousand times it's natural muscle memory. I've shot 6 matches, RO'd 3 or 4, spectated a couple others. So dry fire drills, repetition, etc. I'm hoping will build this skillset for me.

Appreciate the tips!

 

[E-Tool]

Avoid caffeine, or anything with it. Last weekend I had a tins unit on my neck while trying to zero... was hilariously stupid with my neck twitching.

While yes your rifle should be a balanced as possible, when dealing with barricades sometime this isn't possible. What physical shape are you in, maybe you need to do some strengthening exercises?

 

[samb300]

Sure thing. Only reason I bring up prone is your past experience with F class and BR, I wasn’t sure how much “loading the bipod” you shot versus a free recoil-ish with a rifle that slides in a front rest. From what I see, more and more this game is about seeing your own hits and misses, so from the prone if you’re moving more than a mil or two off target while looking through the scope during recoil, your NPA could possibly be tweaked.

One other suggestion to maybe ease into positional stuff. I like to practice positional off a bench or table since it’s 100% solid compared to a wobbly barricade. I put my game changer on its side (which is key) and put my rifle forend on that. It will be rock solid but obviously not using a bipod or rear bag. Work on your body position and NPA and get your wobble dialed in to essentially prone-stable. Then work your way to a more unstable prop next.

 

[Snuby642]

Sorry

 

[littlepod]

Are F-Class shooters still doing a very bladed stance? If you have a strong tendancy to do bladed kind of stances then that's definitely going to fight your NPOA in positional shooting off barricades. You want to be square up which is generally NPOA. I know when I'm fighting NPOA my wobble zone goes way up... I did a stage the other day, first time running, I cleaned it. Second time I put the rifle on a different spot on the barricade and was fighting NPOA the whole time since my body / position of rifle was just off and it kept causing me to push into it/sway it into the right position and missed half my shots.

 

[MDof2]

What physical shape are you in, maybe you need to do some strengthening exercises?

Not in horrible shape. 6'2", 200 lbs, exercise regularly but not all yoked or anything.

Sure thing. Only reason I bring up prone is your past experience with F class and BR, I wasn’t sure how much “loading the bipod” you shot versus a free recoil-ish with a rifle that slides in a front rest. From what I see, more and more this game is about seeing your own hits and misses, so from the prone if you’re moving more than a mil or two off target while looking through the scope during recoil, your NPA could possibly be tweaked.

One other suggestion to maybe ease into positional stuff. I like to practice positional off a bench or table since it’s 100% solid compared to a wobbly barricade. I put my game changer on its side (which is key) and put my rifle forend on that. It will be rock solid but obviously not using a bipod or rear bag. Work on your body position and NPA and get your wobble dialed in to essentially prone-stable. Then work your way to a more unstable prop next.

Yes, was taught loading the bipod coming out of BR and F shooting when I took a couple long range precision classes or what would be dubbed "LR 1, and 2" loosely speaking from training course descriptions.
A bench (your image / or something similar) I'm not horrible off, but again, sitting prone. Not where I want to be, but not horrible.
Where I'm a disaster is standing or kneeling.

 

[Snuby642]

Has anyone tried moving through a target?

 

[E-Tool]

Your in better shape than I home for sure.

 

[samb300]

Best advice I can give for kneeling (i.e. strong side knee up, weak side knee on the ground) is to stretch your hips if you’re tight, and when practicing play around with your knee position, hip/leg angle, and how close you are to the barricade. Find the sweet spot for your ergonomics.

For standing it’s either square up and bend at the waist with locked knees for a solid barricade, or some version of “soft” loading or free-ish recoil with a more blades upper body if the barricade is super wobbly.

 

[kriller134]

How’s your breathing? I used to hold my breath a lot. Now I consciously tell myself to breathe before I break a shot. It’s helped out dramatically, but I still suck, so take that for what it is.

 

[MDof2]

Are F-Class shooters still doing a very bladed stance?

Depending on who's teaching / shooting. I was taught square. I naturally lay down squared up to the rifle.

 

[littlepod]

When you watch PRS videos, do you notice anything differently in their positioning and your own?

 

[Dthomas3523]

You’ll need to post some pics/videos, or get some local instruction. As we will just be throwing out tips and info, not necessarily what you are doing right or wrong.

Common errors I see when helping shooters new to positional shooting off props:

Not square behind rifle (bladed. Might me LoP. Your LoP for positional rifle is typically shorter than prone).

Poorly balanced rifle or the shooter isn’t letting the rifle balance (lots of front of rifle on barricade and trying to support the buttstock with support hand like they see on tv and sniper pictures)

Improper footing. You want to be a tripod of sorts if the prop allows. Spread legs instead of bending knees. When you can’t spread legs anymore, then it’s time for single or double knee

Improper natural point of aim. Muscling rifle. This comes from one or many of the above issues.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Look up Dave Preston’s “athlete” page on Facebook.

Watch his shooting videos. Do what he does. Probably about the best example out there with readily accessible videos.

 

[MDof2]

When you watch PRS videos, do you notice anything differently in their positioning and your own?

I do and I don't. But it's one of those things that you see it, then try it, try again, etc. to see what your results are. I can get in the same position as someone and still have the muzzle wobble 20MOA down range.
practice practice practice I guess?

You’ll need to post some pics/videos, or get some local instruction. As we will just be throwing out tips and info, not necessarily what you are doing right or wrong.

Completely agree. Someone well seasoned in PRS / Positional type shooting who can work hands on with me and see real world where I need to focus or what I'm doing right/wrong.

The above replies do have me thinking about some tips to concentrate on.
And yes, need some video of a stage / COF I perform poorly on which can be reviewed for technique and skill assessment.

 

[HousePlant]

I'm no PRS god (I'm a god in bed, but not PRS... yet) but I have overcame a few things to stay on-target better. The first and foremost thing that I learned is that if I'm shaking and wobbling and I can't keep the crosshair where I need it to be, then my position is wrong. There's a series of videos on YouTube of experienced PRS competitors shooting and they put a camera on the scope. Every... single... time the crosshair doesn't (or barely) budges once they're set up in position. Those videos do a pretty okay job of showing that competitors position. But you have to pause it and look at how they're set up, how they're using the shape of their chassis/gun, how they're using their bipod, where they lean body weight, etc.

It's your position, is what I'm trying to say. There is always a way to stabilize. It's harder for some than it is for others.

Well, there are stages or props that just make it impossible to truly get stable. Maybe it's because you have a bad back. Or -- and this is an issue for me -- the $100 fancy pants bag you bought is no better than a sock filled with rice, even worse in some respects. Whatever. You have to learn how to use the wobble, to start controlling the wobble, to time the trigger pull right as you cross your intended aim point. It's more coarse, but it can get you some points if you simply aren't successful at positioning. And the ONLY way to practice this is to fire off-hand. My suggestion in this respect is to do 100 yard "NRA High Power Rifle" competitions -- you can bring an AR or some old gun but it has to be iron sights only. You learn to get as stable as you can in muliple positions without the allowance of fancy bags and bi/tripods. And you learn how to fire just as you cross the target.

If anything, those iron sight only competitions have helped me the MOST, including in hunting. In the rare situation where I actually do see a deer, for example, I can just raise the gun and quickly fire. Because I have confidence from those matches I know what my body is doing and can target. Am I perfect, no. I'm just saying... practicing stuff outside of PRS develops skills for PRS. For me, anyway.

Essay over.

 

[littlepod]

If you get a chance, put up a dot drill at 100 yards, and do some of your standing/kneeling. I'd be curious what your actual wobble zone is. I know you're exaggerating by 20moa, but still something good to see on paper as paper doesn't lie.

Just curios what is your rifle setup?

 

[MDof2]

All good advice and input. Appreciate it.
Will post up some drills / video as I do them for feedback.

 

[Sheldon N]

I've joked with non-shooting friends that the sport of shooting is just the fine art of holding really still.

For PRS and barricade shooting with the guns and bags we run the ability to reduce wobble is amazing. Put the bag down on the barricade, put the gun down and point it at the target and let go. It sits there all by itself with a zero MOA wobble, dead center on target. All we have to do is pull the trigger straight back without moving the rifle.

You can start out with the cheater "free recoil" option where you do just that, let the rifle do everything and you don't touch it so you don't make it wobble. Not ideal, ultimately not competitive because you can't easily see where your shots go or control the recoil of the rifle. So you want to add yourself (shoulder to buttstock) back into the mix, but without adding any wobble.

When the gun is on the barricade in position, you want to find the body position that allows you to connect your shoulder to the rifle, but stack your body so that you're not using muscle to hold that position, and so you're not relying on the rifle/barricade to create the stability. Stacked bones, relaxed muscles, shoulder connected to rifle with clean contact but not heavy pressure. This is natural point of aim.

Best thing you can do is work a barricade building shooting positions in this fashion, finding out for yourself how best to stack your body so that you can hold really still and relax. You build up a repetoire of body positions that are solid, then when you get to a match you look at something and can easily see where you want to put your own body in relation to the rifle. At the pro level they are doing the same thing, but are building those positions with speed and accuracy... gun goes in exactly the right place, body goes in exactly the right place, everything is relaxed and is already pointing at the target.

 

[MDof2]

Thank you Sheldon. Stacking bones is a great description of the process / skill I need to build/refine. :hattip:

 

[lte82]

There's really four positions on barricades. High standing, low standing, high kneeling, and low kneeling. The low positions are the hardest because your back is angled down and you have muscle tension in your lower back to keep you upright, and muscle tension is what causes the wobble. The more neutral the position, the less muscle tension and less wobble.

Practice building each of those positions at home, keeping muscle tension low, and that should straighten out the wobble.

Here’s a video from the weekend. Classic high & low standing (spreading your legs to lower your body is much more stable than bending your knees or bending your back excessively), and a low kneeling shot.

 

[MakeSawdust]

The advice above is good. I started shooting free recoil and the wobble zone was very small with that technique. I had poor recoil control and could not see where my shots were going. When I made the correct wind call I hit everything. When it was wrong I missed everything.

After that I began practicing a ton from barricades. I started dryfiring for around an hour a day with a dfat and using half moa dots. I did it all last winter. By the time spring rolled around, I could hold my wobble inside half moa from most positions with a game changer bag and squeeze the trigger. I found I could put some body behind the gun and spot almost every shot I sent downrange. I practiced on one moa targets and found I was surprisingly consistent at hitting them in steady winds.

The basics to building positions as well as having a gun that is balanced correctly have been laid out well above. After that it is just practice. I bet when I started shooting prs style matches my wobble zone was 2-3 moa when I was calm and 5-10 moa when I was spun up. Now, as long as the barricade is solid, I can hold inside a half moa wobble. Some guys have virtually no wobble. By practicing a ton you will learn what works for you and the little nuances about how much pressure to put where and at what angle to reduce wobble and control recoil. It is frustrating at first, but after awhile it is amazing what you can hit with a gamechanger from a barricade. You just have to keep at it. It literally takes tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of repetitions.

 

[salks]

Adjusting my rifle helped me a good bit. I spent 1/2 a day in my backyard moving stuff around basically LOP so that when I am behind the rifle I have a good view in the scope without any strain in my head and neck. I just went out and experimented with every adjustment I had to see what would make a difference.

 

[Danattherock]

Lots of great advice above, need to work on NPA more myself, and being square. I recently adjusted LOP down to better accomplish this. Bigger guy, long LOP felt natural, but forced me open and I think it's been a real issue on positional stages. Free recoil, got away with it a bit, but shouldering rifle more I paid the piper.

One thing I will add, or reiterate. A heavier rifle will make your positional shooting easier. Not sure what you shoot, but there are now weight options for many popular chassis and stocks. I added the MPA weight kit to two of mine, and just two weeks ago added a weight kit to the foundation stock. It helps, assuming your rifle is balanced fore and aft.

Lastly, while I initially wasn't a huge fan, add a Gray Ops plate. I found it really helped a lot, especially on the harder positional stages where I used to have big wobble zones. Many use the mini plate, I have the larger offering. There are now some bag offerings from Armageddon Gear, Cole Tac, etc that attach to the plates. Many just use the game changer of course. Either way, from reading above, you should consider adding a plate.

 

[BigdaddyWSM]

I'm the same way, I'm 58 & I really need to stretch, drink plenty of water before any match or I get stiff & crampy. I also am learning to relax & stop rushing shots which really screws me up. better to breathe normal, make good hits & move on. mostly comes with practice on the clock using 2 minutes to make good clean shots count instead of rushing and getting done fast with lots of missed/rushed shots.

 

[Northfl]

I live in a neighborhood with the range being an hour away so time there is limited. Having the same issue as the op, i built a barricade for the back yard. I have a privacy fence around it so no pesky neighbors to start complaining about a weapon.
i drew some real small dots on some of the fence pickets and numbered them say 1-6.
i dial everything down so i can see them and run dryfire practice that way. Give myself a stage course of fire in my head. Say Dot 1,3,4 and 6. Two shots 4 positions.
i set a timer on my phone for 92 seconds.Get setup just like i would on a stage. Hit the timer, throw the phone in a chair and run the stage. Over and over and over. Change up the dot #’s and run it some more. change it up and keep running different stages. If you arent holding on the dot dont break the trigger and start over again. It has improved my wobble zone quite a bit.
the dots i drew are 1/4” or so and the barricade is about 25 yds away from them

 

[Northfl]

Got tired of getting my ass handed to me on the stairs stages we seem to shoot alot of where i shoot so i built a set of those to dryfire off of as well different set of dots lower on the fence same drill. Make up a stage and run it.

 

[HellcatActual]

what helped me in my instance. square to the gun 100% of the time.. this changed my NPA (actually giving my NPA) but also required my setup to be tweaked so everything fit again correctly.

additionally, adding weight and spending considerable amount of time on finding the balance point of the weapon. and I marked it and every time I set it down I make sure on im on the money.

these made some considerable increases for me as far as steadiness

oh. I also stopped getting absolutely shit housed drunk the night before a match. and limit to one cup of coffee in the morning of the match and lower my nicotine consumption during the match.

basically I stop doing all the fun shit I love to make the fun shit I love more funner


ETA: also look up and understand the term "free recoiling". im not promoting or condoning the practice but how to get to free recoil may give you some insight on your issues

 

[Darkside-Six]

I’m a big advocate for dry firing. These Indoor Dryfire Systems have been awesome. Great piece of equipment for the money. During the winter months I spend a lot of time just working on building different positions off different objects.

 

[Northfl]

I’m a big advocate for dry firing. These Indoor Dryfire Systems have been awesome. Great piece of equipment for the money. During the winter months I spend a lot of time just working on building different positions off different objects.

View attachment 7507990

Tried the top of that belgians head yet??should be interesting to say the least. Lol. Gorgeous dog

 

[Dthomas3523]

And as always, if the answer to “have you taken an in depth class on fundamentals from someone like Frank or Jacob” is no.......you’re doing cart before the horse.

Every position off your belly uses the exact same fundamentals. Some may be compromised in certain positions, but you need to know what to and not to compromise.

It’s extremely rare that I see anyone (first few matches are always bad, no matter what) with long term stability/wobble issues, who also have great fundamentals.

First questions I ask are “have you taken a good fundamentals class” and “can you tell me the fundamentals of Marksmanship and how they apply in the position you are attempting to make”.

Very rarely do I get a yes and/or explanation.

The fundamentals *are* the “tricks.”

 

[Junco Grande]

I think building a good position is paramount, the rest is fundamental process of elimination from there. I've never lost respect for a man who stopped, backed up and rebuilt a shitty position to finish a stage with good shots.

 

[MDof2]

I appreciate everyone's input. Good food for thought to churn on and practice while not in a match. I've got materials sitting in the garage to build a barricade to do some dry fire practice, and singed up for some add'l training later in the month. In the mean time, random dryfire off a barstool in the shop, table edge, etc. working on NPA, etc.

I think my next few matches I'm going to drag a GoPro along on another tripod and record as many of the stages I can / remember / to go back and analyze / review later.

Again, appreciate all the info, suggestions, and feedback.