Sub-MOA ?

[PistonPete]

when you folks brag about "sub-moa", can you describe how you are obtaining this miraculous feat ?

is it off hand ? (hardly ha ha ha

)

or bench with sand bags/bi-pod ?

or is the gun clamped down in a vise like mechanism where the only movement is the trigger, disconnector, hammer, firing pin, bolt carrier and bolt plus the cartridge and fired case ?

actually i believe these brags of "sub-moa" is a dream in someones mind with "field" type weapons. i once competed in bench rest shooting with a 16 lb. fiberglass stock, 1.25" diameter, 24" barreled .222 Rem with 25X Unertl scope, i often got one hole groups, but they measured .120" to .175" average, the rifle was well bedded in sand bags, two minutes between shots and the extracted case was reloaded 5 times right there off the tail gate of my truck.

any questions ??

i have a few !

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when you folks brag about "sub-moa", can you describe how you are obtaining this miraculous feat ?
</div></div>
So, how is it done? that's your question?

Its done the same way as any other rifle I guess, work up the most accurate load you can for the rifle in question. And get a steady rest(bi-pod,sandbags, backpack,ect.) and then smooth steady consistent operation of the trigger.
This seems too obvious, so I wonder what the question really means?

 

[mgd45]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

You basically use the same basic marksmanship fundamentals as any other time you shoot. When I shoot, I normally just use a bipod and rear bag about 95% of the time. When I did some 700 yard shooting in a friends field, I had to shoot standing in the back of a truck & using the roof as my "bench"......I was pretty happy with the results!

Remember....obtain your Natural Point of Aim....relax...breath control....easy on the grip & then a smooth, easy trigger press straight backwards as your watching the reticule....

my rifle is the one sitting on the rear bag....

 

[mgd45]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

I just realized I posted this in the "semi-auto" section......sorry about that! I basically forgot which sub-forum I was in......apologies.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

How I do it is prone, off a bipod or sandbags under handguard and a small sand bag under the buttstock that I can squeeze to hold the reticle steady and isolate body movement. The gun(s) I use are a stock LMT MWS with a chrome lined barrel and a MK12 MOD 0 with a 20" heavy barrel(semi cloned). I use handloads and factory FGGM to do it.

Sub MOA is anything under 1.047 many people do it with field rifles. I would bet there are hundreds of sub moa groups happening as I write this. Im not one of them since Im stuck inside today.

Its not a dream to shoot field grade semi autos sub MOA. If your not doing it now you either dont know how to shoot a semi or your equipment isnt good enough. This is not to say your a bad shot, Lowlight and Others will attest to the fact that shooting a Semi is different than shooting a bolt. Their saying is that you can ride a bolt gun but you have to drive a gas gun. I learned this also when I got my LMT and I already had sub MOA results with my MOD 0.

Shooting a BR rifle is not the hard part, the hard part is getting to the point to pull the trigger.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just realized I posted this in the "semi-auto" section......sorry about that! I basically forgot which sub-forum I was in......apologies. </div></div>

That's okay MGD, your points are right on, whether its a bolt gun or a gassy the principle of marksmanship are the same.

 

[Neo]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

+ 1 On both post above. These pics are from my SH AR build I shot this AM. Working on load dev w/77 SMK's

Rifle Specs:
JD Machine Snipers Hide upper and lower
Dpms MK 12 1/8 18" barrel
Rock River NM parts kit and bolt
Dpms free float tube
Harris 6-9 notched w/Podlock
Falcon 5X25 ML 16
These are all 5 shot groups @ 100 Yards w/ bipod and rear bag.


2 worst groups out of 6 groups shot.

Best group of the morning.

Temp was 20 degrees w/ windchill. Wind @ 8:00 5-10 MPH

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when you folks brag about "sub-moa", can you describe how you are obtaining this miraculous feat ?

is it off hand ? (hardly ha ha ha

)

or bench with sand bags/bi-pod ?

or is the gun clamped down in a vise like mechanism where the only movement is the trigger, disconnector, hammer, firing pin, bolt carrier and bolt plus the cartridge and fired case ?

actually i believe these brags of "sub-moa" is a dream in someones mind with "field" type weapons. i once competed in bench rest shooting with a 16 lb. fiberglass stock, 1.25" diameter, 24" barreled .222 Rem with 25X Unertl scope, i often got one hole groups, but they measured .120" to .175" average, the rifle was well bedded in sand bags, two minutes between shots and the extracted case was reloaded 5 times right there off the tail gate of my truck.

any questions ??

i have a few ! </div></div>

This is a rhetorical question designed to feed a troll.
If you don't know how it is done PP, there are no words I can put together in any order to help you.

Oh, but then you do know how it's done as you go on to self-promote and describe your superior shooting escapades shooting small groups with a BR set-up.

What is a "field" type weapon anyhow?
Do you mean a non-benchrest rifle?

If so, then yes, it is done regularly in all positions (with the POSSIBLE exception of off-hand) by truly talented shooters with iron sights, let alone talented shooters with optics.

Yes PP, you are the cats ass when it comes to all things shooting.

Shankster isn't the only one who possesses google-fu.
I already know much about you.

You must be seeking some additional validation.
I'm here to help.

 

[Saito]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Yeah Piston Pete is definitely a homo. Why don't you go back to wherever you've been for the last year, ya douche. I'm sure 6br must have kicked ya off and you don't fit in here. Why not move on to arfcom with all of the other hide rejects?

As far as "sub-moa" goes, I've never had a problem keeping 5 rounds under an inch, or 1.047 inches....nuke it out. F you PP.

 

[BCP]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Must...resist...urge...to...feed the troll!

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Certainly the "troll" issue is a problem, but I'm a little more concerned about what happened to mgd45 (see pic).

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

"To get back to the warning that I received. You may take it with however many grains of salt that you wish. That the brown acid that is circulating around us isn't too good. It is suggested that you stay away from that. Of course it's your own trip. So be my guest, but please be advised that there is a warning on that one, ok?"

 

[aquinas]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You basically use the same basic marksmanship fundamentals as any other time you shoot. When I shoot, I normally just use a bipod and rear bag about 95% of the time. When I did some 700 yard shooting in a friends field, I had to shoot standing in the back of a truck & using the roof as my "bench"......I was pretty happy with the results!

Remember....obtain your Natural Point of Aim....relax...breath control....easy on the grip & then a smooth, easy trigger press straight backwards as your watching the reticule....

my rifle is the one sitting on the rear bag....

</div></div>

I LOVE IT. $10,000 bucks worth of rifle sitting on top of a $1500 pickup truck. Someone has their priorities straight!!!!

 

[aquinas]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

I think the original poster's gripe is legit and it comes from people only showing their best groups. I doubt every group from a gun that is sub-moa capable, is in fact, sub-moa. I think it means the gun has shot sub-moa level of accuracy.

And let's be honest, if someone could consistetly turn it that kind of performance, they'd see their name one place ahead of David Tubb or Carl Bernosky's at Camp David.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: himaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think the original poster's gripe is legit and it comes from people only showing their best groups. I doubt every group from a gun that is sub-moa capable, is in fact, sub-moa. I think it means the gun has shot sub-moa level of accuracy.

And let's be honest, if someone could consistetly turn it that kind of performance, they'd see their name one place ahead of David Tubb or Carl Bernosky's at Camp David. <span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">(it seems we have quite a few here who should have their names added to those of great fame, maybe my name should be there also, i once killed a running Snowshoe Hare at over 125 paces with my .54 cal. Flintlock Muzzle loader)</span></span>
</div></div>

Thank You Sir,
what you posted my friend is exactly what i was getting at but some how i did not get my point across sufficiently. from some of the derogatory replies these people seem to be saying that every group they shoot is a "sub-moa" and no one is better than they are.

then you got shit like this: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a rhetorical question designed to feed a troll. <span style="color: #FF0000">(NO, MR.Ignorance, it is a question designed to extract information from the X-spurts like yourself here so that i may also shoot .005" groups consistently as you do OK ?)</span>
If you don't know how it is done PP, <span style="color: #3333FF">there are no words I can put together in any order to help you.</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">(that is exactly what i thought, thank for admitting you are no help at all)</span></div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #3333FF">I already know much about you.</span></div></div>
you mean to say that you know about as much about me as i know about you ? that is fantastically awesome man !!

when someone starts calling names like "homo", i am very certain this person is one himself or he is a deranged psycho who may be the next Jared Loughner..., you worry me son, get your head right take your meds and mellow out OK ?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

This is Sniper's Hide not bench rest central, other than zeroing your rifle and diagnosing possible fundamental issues, what is the point of shooting a tactical rifle for groups?

Shooting groups is a lesson in futility in most cases, at least in this discipline, which is why they have disciplines dedicated to shooting groups.

It about the first shot, or the second shot follow up that should be in the air within 3 seconds of the first or at least no later than 5 seconds. After that most bets are off.

If you want talk something like load development I would content every group should be sub MOA, anything not would be meaningless.

I don't shoot groups unless I am demonstrating something and with the rifles I use, it's all on the shooter to not shoot a sub MOA group. If you focus on the fundamentals it's really hard to not shoot sub MOA with most bolt guns today.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is Sniper's Hide not bench rest central, other than zeroing your rifle and diagnosing possible fundamental issues, what is the point of shooting a tactical rifle for groups?

Shooting groups is a lesson in futility in most cases, at least in this discipline, which is why they have disciplines dedicated to shooting groups.

It about the first shot, or the second shot follow up that should be in the air within 3 seconds of the first or at least no later than 5 seconds. After that most bets are off.

If you want talk something like load development I would content every group should be sub MOA, anything not would be meaningless.

I don't shoot groups unless I am demonstrating something and with the rifles I use, it's all on the shooter to not shoot a sub MOA group. If you focus on the fundamentals it's really hard to not shoot sub MOA with most bolt guns today. </div></div>

i agree 1,000%, i do not own any bolt action rifles, i gave them all to my son and started adding to my AR-15 collection, i am quite certain every one of them with a custom load will shoot one hole groups..., BUT !! that is not my idea of a tactical weapon/rifle/carbine, my main interest is being able to put 5 rounds in a humans head size target at 300 yds. and if the group is .500" or 5.75", all i care about is that my intended target is a dead muthafarker!!

i truely would like to know more about this photo,

such as powder type, 23.1 gr. of what ? what primer ? i have been working up a load using the 77 gr. SMK and BLC-2 and Ramshot TAC, the strange thing about this is when i get a load that is "sub-moa" in one rifle/carbine it ain't worth a crap in a different makers rifle/carbine with same twist, same bipod and rear sand bag on the same bench and same day within minutes.

but.., having fun, that is what shooting and reloading is all about, OK ?

also can we keep the name calling and flaming to a minimum, there is only one person on this forum who knows me personally and that is Tucsondave all others who claim to know me are LIARS and FOOLS

please keep in mind what we are all here for, learning from others, conversing civilly and having fun.....,<span style="font-size: 20pt"> <span style="color: #FF0000">OK ??? </span></span>

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually i believe these brags of "sub-moa" is a dream in someones mind with "field" type weapons.</div></div>

Are you serious?

Most of my "accuracy" shooting is from bipod and rear bag.

My cheap-ass Remington SPS-V turned in sub-moa groups (under 1.04") when it was brand new in the plastic stock. I usually shoot groups to test the rifle when it's new.

This week I thought I was having some issues with the AE MkII. I threw it on the bench and tossed five rounds of 168gr Gold Metal Match downrange into a half inch group. I then followed it up with ten shots on a dot drill. They were 3/8" dots and all shots were in. Not a single shot I fired that day including the cold bore shot were more than 1 minute of angle from the point of aim. Needless to say, there was no issue with the rifle. The deviation I was worried about was caused by the glass I was shooting through on the last evolution.

It really isn't that hard and I am not that great of a shot. Now I do think there is an amazingly vast number of 1/4 MOA "all day long" shooters and rifles on the internet. It's also interesting to note that I never see these shooters show up when there are prizes and money up for grabs.

I agree that shooting groups to shoot groups is not conductive to increasing your skill level. However sometimes it's just fun and I do believe it's useful to diagnose issues in the rifle and sometimes in the shooter.

 

[Neo]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Load for that group:
Winchester weight sorted brass (2nd reload)
CCI std primer
23.1 XBR 8208
77 Gr. SMK
OAL 2.255

 

[samnev]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

I agree I think most of us post our best groups as a matter of pride, not saying that the rifle (or us) consistantly shoots that well all the time.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

I have two AR's right now, one in 6.5 G and that's a .5 moa gun and a LMT/Del-Ton carbine in 5.56 that is about a 1 MOA gun with me behind it and a decent optic on top. With iron sights I can only group around 1.5 MOA with it. Before that, I had a RRA 'A2 in 5.56 that was about a .5 MOA (with optic) and another 6.5G heavy barrel that was a .25 MOA gun. All those guns were shot from a bench or prone on bipod. I don't shoot sub-MOA anything from the offhand position. But, that's me, not the rifle.

So what's your point? That someone who has a really good shooting AR doesn't really have a good shooting rifle because you don't see it? Because they have other things to do in their life than go around proving to everyone they say the have a good shooting rifle to.

I can understand LL not liking to shoot groups. However, I do. And that's how I measure the accuracy of my rifle. Not by how well I can call wind @ 1k. I take as much of myself out of the shooting equation as I can and let the rifle do the work. It's true that once you've proven a rifle will shoot sub-moa (or better) it may be a waste of time/bullets to shoot groups at an already known distance. But, one thing I like to see is consistency of a load. The real skill of tactical shooting is calling your shot and being within 1 MOA when you do it. I call that being my accuracy, not the rifles. I'll be honest with you in that when I do that I'm not even close to how well my rifle(s) can shoot. Good enough for a kill? Most times. Not within MOA hardly ever. But, that isn't my rifles fault now is it?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Only cause i posted it yesterday... so I have it handy.

In competition, meaning on demand in the field. Unimproved ground, bipod, factory ammo, 5 shots, after shooting at distance all day.

As far as ARs go, most people are shooting them from standing, usually unsupported so I dont' see where "groups" come into play with an AR, so apples and oranges.

As far as confirming accuracy, sure at distance I will hit a target more than once to make sure it wasn't a fluke or to make sure the shooter didn't stumble on the hit. Consistency for sure, but I dont' go and record the "group" the hit is enough and honestly those who do the "dot drill" will tell you, that drill with one per target tells you more than a group will do. In a lot of cases you fine tune you hits to make sure you have a solid number to record for the conditions but again, not groups, simply getting center on the target so you can say, on Monday the rifle wanted 3.6Mils at 500 yards for these conditions, on Tuesday it might be 3.5 mils, etc... but that doesn't constitute "groups" to me. A group implies going for a number which gets in the shooters head which he will blow because he is over thinking it.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Lowlight, what rifle and ammo did you use to do the impossible? Where were you aiming???

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

I shot this with my DPMS/GAP 260R at the SHC 2009.
I could not see the holes past 100yds because of the mirage, so I did not make any corrections in elevation and windage(USO SN3 @ 22x)

Shot prone from 400 to 100yds if I remember correctly.
Bipod/monopod

I know the rifle/ammo can shoot, I just need more trigger time...
You can take this as an excuse or a reason to spend more time at the range

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

That was the point, I was just quartering the entire target / white and didn't watch the impacts, well I did, and basically thought i blew it, but just held center and shot. Clearly my zero was off a bit. LOL

GAP SHR #33 I think I was using factory Lapua 185gr at the time, though it could have been anything from Lapua 155 to 170gr but I know it was Lapua ammo.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

How is that Lapua ammo? Is it more consistent than FGMM? Is it better at longer range? Thanks!

 

[Graham]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Sub-MOA in the field at 700 yards, from a bi-pod, to confirm dope and measure vertical spread on a load.

Sub-MOA testing a new lot of ammo, prone off a bi-pod at 100:

Sub-MOA testing a new rifle prone off a bi-pod at 500 meters (to prove that the fifth shot was shooter, not rifle):

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

I would take this thread more serious if it was started by someone who shoots their rifles instead of calling BS to everyone else who shoots theirs.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Don't mean to cause a fuss, please don't take offense.

I don't put much faith in Sub MOA Groups. I've seen a lot of them posted but I've see few cleaned targets on the 600 & 1000 yard targets. The X-10 ring is about 2 MOA.

We can't say its because I'm a High Power Guy. In NRA 1000 yard matches they have a class for Any Rifle/Any Sights.

I'm more impressed if some one comes close to cleaning a 200 yard standing slow fire target, that's about 3.5 MOA.

In the winter I use to shoot small bore to keep in shape for high power. It was nothing for me to clean the ISU targets prone, even setting (but that was on NRA Small Bore), but when it came to kneeling and standing it was a completely differant ball game.

I guess if one is into bench rest, then sub moa groups are the norm.

Anyway its my opinion that matches are won or lost on your hind legs, not your belly.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

No offense. How do you expect someone to clean targets shooting 10 rounds in 60 seconds and 10 rounds at 300 in 70 seconds without pulling a few shots? Its not apples to apples with what were talking about.

The question was posed that nobody can shoot 3-5 rounds sub MOA with any consistancy if at all. Unless he meant 40 rounds within MOA.(who made the rules for rounds per MOA anyway?).

I dont know Lowlight personally but I bet he can duplicate the "imposible" feat he posted above with regularity and he is a stickler for 5 round groups. I have no idea how long it took him to do it, but I would guess longer than 60 seconds for 5 rounds.

In HP they have any rifle any sight except you cant use a bipod or a rear bag can you? That would be apples to oranges.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

All due respect back Kraig,

Tactical Rifles are not designed to be shoot in the offhand position and while it can be done for a few shots, its really a waste of everyone's time except in situations of snap shots.

Coming from the USMC I did all that, and shot Expert, more than a few times. Standing at 200, sitting kneeling prone to 500yards with an M16 and open sights, been their done that, got the T Shirt & a shiny award for my chest... yea, that and $2.85 I can get a Grande Americano at Starbucks


But again, this is Sniper's Hide, not Service RIfle Hide, or Palma Party... so let's keep things in the context they are meant. Here is me at Raton in Michelle Gallagher's Shooting Jacket with her Rifle, and her showing me the Bondage Ropes:

At the same time, we do shoot a lot of alternate positions, however we support the front of 15+lbs rifles. We get up off our bellies, in fact a few years ago the Fall Shooter's Bash only had 1 prone shot for the entire match. Everything else was run & gun, and alternate positions. We shoot a lot from the support side too, so you want to impress me, try shooting offhand in the context of an injury drill... we have done barricades, 1 hand, from the support side... can you do that offhand ?

Most of our standing is supported though,

I don't shoot slow and I dick up shots all the time. Especially now when I am sticking a camera in my own face. Moving things around, back and forth, narrating the shots, takes my focus away more than I like, but it's my choice.

However when the works needs to be put in, if my rifle and I can't shoot sub MOA it's time for a new barrel. Everything tends to hover around .5 MOA which is my happy spot. I consider anything under .5 MOA a lucky day, depending on the rifle of course.

My 600 yard target, 308, factory 170gr Lapua Ammo, held a little over 1 mil of wind.

They key to all this is, can you do it on demand, under field conditions.


But still I consider shooting groups to be silly for a tactical rifle shooter.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

15,000 posts and still has time to shoot.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

15,000, I talk to much, for the rest of the week I am going to the range... heavy focus on Handgun if that counts. LOL

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Re25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">15,000 posts and still has time to shoot.</div></div>

It was a good post for # 15,000....

<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:

And I noticed too, he's got the BCG's on again in that shot W/Michelle Gallagher.

Edit II:

I think you're gonna single handedly bring that style back.

</span>

 

[aquinas]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Lowlight-cool post.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Neoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load for that group:
Winchester weight sorted brass (2nd reload)
CCI std primer
23.1 XBR 8208
77 Gr. SMK
OAL 2.255 </div></div>


thank you sir, i just happen to have all those components, so i'll load up a hundred or so and give it a try then let you know how it goes, i have 5 favorite rifles/carbines to try the loads in, i think this may turn out to be a lot of fun.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take this thread more serious if it was started by someone who shoots their rifles instead of calling BS to everyone else who shoots theirs. </div></div>

Sir, i shoot my rifles quite regularly, about 500 rnds a week, i shoot mostly for accuracy, NOT groups, if you know what i mean ? do you ? as far as the BS goes, i call it as i see it, which means that some members seem to be saying their rifles are THE most accurate ever produced, and their skills are far above any other living human.

just for once i would love to see someone post a terrific one hole or any group less than .500" target, then say, "WoW ! this is a first ever for me, every thing was working perfectly this day, i am so happy"

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't mean to cause a fuss, please don't take offense.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3333FF">(you are not causing any fuss my friend, i am in total agreement with you, at our range, i have seen many targets brought back from the 100 & 200 yd. ranges, my shooting position is in front of where the target stands are stored, when the shooters return with their targets from 200 yd., they are in the 2 to 8 inches and larger, mine are usually in a 4 inch group.)</span></span>

I don't put much faith in Sub MOA Groups. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3333FF">(same here my friend)</span></span> I've seen a lot of them posted but I've see few cleaned targets on the 600 & 1000 yard targets. The X-10 ring is about 2 MOA.

We can't say its because I'm a High Power Guy. In NRA 1000 yard matches they have a class for Any Rifle/Any Sights.

I'm more impressed if some one comes close to cleaning a 200 yard standing slow fire target, that's about 3.5 MOA.

In the winter I use to shoot small bore to keep in shape for high power. It was nothing for me to clean the ISU targets prone, even setting (but that was on NRA Small Bore), but when it came to kneeling and standing it was a completely differant ball game.

I guess if one is into bench rest, then sub moa groups are the norm.

Anyway its my opinion that matches are won or lost on your hind legs, not your belly.

</div></div>

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take this thread more serious if it was started by someone who shoots their rifles instead of calling BS to everyone else who shoots theirs. </div></div>

Sir, i shoot my rifles quite regularly, about 500 rnds a week, i shoot mostly for accuracy, NOT groups, if you know what i mean ? do you ? as far as the BS goes, i call it as i see it, which means that some members seem to be saying their rifles are THE most accurate ever produced, and their skills are far above any other living human.

just for once i would love to see someone post a terrific one hole or any group less than .500" target, then say, "WoW ! this is a first ever for me, every thing was working perfectly this day, i am so happy" </div></div>
I think the problem is with all that top secret missions you have been on "Most of which I cannot discuss" along with $20,000 dollor rifles and such and still you cannot for any reason shoot anything better than a 1 1/2 MOA shot. A person with your "background" should be able to shoot six flying ducks from 900 yards out. I know just about everyone who shoots with me can shoot better than, not an attack but a simple fact since they all shoot under 1 moa at 100 yards. If I have a gun that shoots worse than 1 MOA then I figure out what went wrong. I sight in for groups so I know my gun will hit where I need it to under the stress of competition. I don't shoot 500 rounds a week but I do make my shot times matter. I had a DPMS LR-308 that shot under half MOA with match ammo every single time I pulled that trigger. My AR-15 shoots 1/2-1 MOA with good ammo and 2-3 MOA with wolf. Since you posted this in the Semi-Auto section I figured I would post that even semi guns can do what you think is a miracle. If my gun shot all over the place and only on "one day" it shot a good group I would get a new barrel because I know when its me shooting wrong and when the gun can no longer keep up with me. Keep up the practice then one day maybe you will see a group under 1 MOA and then we can all call BS and say nope that only happens when there is a miracle.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But again, this is Sniper's Hide, not Service RIfle Hide, or Palma Party... so let's keep things in the context they are meant.</div></div>

If snipershide were to consist of only snipers with snipery posts, there would be a lot less online activity here.

The Gallagher's are an amazing bunch.
IMO an honor to have her loan you her stuff and spot for you.
Her younger sister Sherri is a precision shooting machine.
HP shooters are a great bunch, many just need an extra excuse to go out and shoot, and HP delivers.
Then, many come on here and "Blah blah blah guns, blah blah bullets, MOA blah, etc...."

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take this thread more serious if it was started by someone who shoots their rifles instead of calling BS to everyone else who shoots theirs. </div></div>

Sir, i shoot my rifles quite regularly, about 500 rnds a week, i shoot mostly for accuracy, NOT groups, if you know what i mean ? do you ? as far as the BS goes, i call it as i see it, which means that some members seem to be saying their rifles are THE most accurate ever produced, and their skills are far above any other living human.

just for once i would love to see someone post a terrific one hole or any group less than .500" target, then say, "WoW ! this is a first ever for me, every thing was working perfectly this day, i am so happy" </div></div>
I think the problem is with all that top secret missions you have been on "Most of which I cannot discuss" along with $20,000 dollor rifles and such and still you cannot for any reason shoot anything better than a 1 1/2 MOA shot. A person with your "background" should be able to shoot six flying ducks from 900 yards out. I know just about everyone who shoots with me can shoot better than, not an attack but a simple fact since they all shoot under 1 moa at 100 yards. If I have a gun that shoots worse than 1 MOA then I figure out what went wrong. I sight in for groups so I know my gun will hit where I need it to under the stress of competition. I don't shoot 500 rounds a week but I do make my shot times matter. I had a DPMS LR-308 that shot under half MOA with match ammo every single time I pulled that trigger. My AR-15 shoots 1/2-1 MOA with good ammo and 2-3 MOA with wolf. Since you posted this in the Semi-Auto section I figured I would post that even semi guns can do what you think is a miracle. If my gun shot all over the place and only on "one day" it shot a good group I would get a new barrel because I know when its me shooting wrong and when the gun can no longer keep up with me. Keep up the practice then one day maybe you will see a group under 1 MOA and then we can all call BS and say nope that only happens when there is a miracle. </div></div>


+1

PP, your B.S. is legendary.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But again, this is Sniper's Hide, not Service RIfle Hide, or Palma Party... so let's keep things in the context they are meant.</div></div>

If snipershide were to consist of only snipers with snipery posts, there would be a lot less online activity here.

The Gallagher's are an amazing bunch.
IMO an honor to have her loan you her stuff and spot for you.
Her younger sister Sherri is a precision shooting machine.
HP shooters are a great bunch, many just need an extra excuse to go out and shoot, and HP delivers.
Then, many come on here and "Blah blah blah guns, blah blah bullets, MOA blah, etc...."</div></div>

You completely misunderstand the point...

Sniper's Hide meaning you don't put things in context of Bench rest central...

Sniper's Hide meaning you don't shoot your rifle like a service rifle shooter

The people are irrelevant and I have the number people here I do because I understand these things...

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

Lowlight,

Was that 600 yd target shot with the Gladius?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight,

Was that 600 yd target shot with the Gladius?</div></div>

No the Harbinger, first time out with it, I was using Lapua 170gr HPS... this was all pre-Gladius. The Harbinger was actually finished for this match I believe, at least very close to this match.

The group above it was the Harbinger too...

 

[Graham]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sir, i shoot my rifles quite regularly, about 500 rnds a week, i shoot mostly for accuracy, NOT groups, if you know what i mean ? do you ? as far as the BS goes, i call it as i see it, which means that some members seem to be saying their rifles are THE most accurate ever produced, and their skills are far above any other living human.</div></div>If you are shooting five hundred rounds a week you are wasting ammo because you are not dry-firing enough. It would take me ten day-long trips to the range to fire five hundred rounds - five hundred meaningful rounds, anyway.

 

[okiefired]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

The OP did kind of a bad job trying to make his point...I think. While sub moa guns aren't quite as rare as hens teeth, especially when talking about modern customs, they're certainly not as commonm as some try and lead us to believe. I think a lot of people confuse a ... "I've shot some sub moa groups with it" rifle with one that is actually a sub moa rifle. A sub moa rifle will ALWAYS average sub mao groups IF the driver is capable....and there in lies the big question. Many simply dont have the skills, training, or both to know exactly what thier rifle is capable of. I've got a .5moa rifle and believe it or not, its a factory barreled rifle. When it dosn't shoot .5 moa, its because I've blown the trigger pull or wasn't on the rifle right. I can call it damn near every time. Yeah, it happens more than I like to admit. But I've shot enough to know......that its a very good factory rifle. But, like Frank said, on this forum its pretty much a non issue.

okie

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take this thread more serious if it was started by someone who shoots their rifles instead of calling BS to everyone else who shoots theirs. </div></div>

Sir, i shoot my rifles quite regularly, about 500 rnds a week, i shoot mostly for accuracy, NOT groups, if you know what i mean ? do you ? as far as the BS goes, i call it as i see it, which means that some members seem to be saying their rifles are THE most accurate ever produced, and their skills are far above any other living human.

just for once i would love to see someone post a terrific one hole or any group less than .500" target, then say, "WoW ! this is a first ever for me, every thing was working perfectly this day, i am so happy" </div></div>
I think the problem is with all that top secret missions you have been on "Most of which I cannot discuss" along with $20,000 dollor rifles and such and still you cannot for any reason shoot anything better than a 1 1/2 MOA shot. A person with your "background" should be able to shoot six flying ducks from 900 yards out. I know just about everyone who shoots with me can shoot better than, not an attack but a simple fact since they all shoot under 1 moa at 100 yards. If I have a gun that shoots worse than 1 MOA then I figure out what went wrong. I sight in for groups so I know my gun will hit where I need it to under the stress of competition. I don't shoot 500 rounds a week but I do make my shot times matter. I had a DPMS LR-308 that shot under half MOA with match ammo every single time I pulled that trigger. My AR-15 shoots 1/2-1 MOA with good ammo and 2-3 MOA with wolf. Since you posted this in the Semi-Auto section I figured I would post that even semi guns can do what you think is a miracle. If my gun shot all over the place and only on "one day" it shot a good group I would get a new barrel because I know when its me shooting wrong and when the gun can no longer keep up with me. Keep up the practice then one day maybe you will see a group under 1 MOA and then we can all call BS and say nope that only happens when there is a miracle. </div></div>

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #009900">WoW !! talk about someone talking out their ass.., man ! you are a Champion Class A1 5 Star ***** ass talker, take your trash and sell it somewhere else, you have impressed no one with your drivel.

to me you are nothing but a dogs dick fly !</span></span>

 

[PistonPete]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

[quote=Piston

PP, your B.S. is legendary. </div></div>

really ? well clue me in my friend, i would love to read my biography, who is the author ?

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take this thread more serious if it was started by someone who shoots their rifles instead of calling BS to everyone else who shoots theirs. </div></div>

Sir, i shoot my rifles quite regularly, about 500 rnds a week, i shoot mostly for accuracy, NOT groups, if you know what i mean ? do you ? as far as the BS goes, i call it as i see it, which means that some members seem to be saying their rifles are THE most accurate ever produced, and their skills are far above any other living human.

just for once i would love to see someone post a terrific one hole or any group less than .500" target, then say, "WoW ! this is a first ever for me, every thing was working perfectly this day, i am so happy" </div></div>
I think the problem is with all that top secret missions you have been on "Most of which I cannot discuss" along with $20,000 dollor rifles and such and still you cannot for any reason shoot anything better than a 1 1/2 MOA shot. A person with your "background" should be able to shoot six flying ducks from 900 yards out. I know just about everyone who shoots with me can shoot better than, not an attack but a simple fact since they all shoot under 1 moa at 100 yards. If I have a gun that shoots worse than 1 MOA then I figure out what went wrong. I sight in for groups so I know my gun will hit where I need it to under the stress of competition. I don't shoot 500 rounds a week but I do make my shot times matter. I had a DPMS LR-308 that shot under half MOA with match ammo every single time I pulled that trigger. My AR-15 shoots 1/2-1 MOA with good ammo and 2-3 MOA with wolf. Since you posted this in the Semi-Auto section I figured I would post that even semi guns can do what you think is a miracle. If my gun shot all over the place and only on "one day" it shot a good group I would get a new barrel because I know when its me shooting wrong and when the gun can no longer keep up with me. Keep up the practice then one day maybe you will see a group under 1 MOA and then we can all call BS and say nope that only happens when there is a miracle. </div></div>

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #009900">WoW !! talk about someone talking out their ass.., man ! you are a Champion Class A1 5 Star ***** ass talker, take your trash and sell it somewhere else, you have impressed no one with your drivel.

to me you are nothing but a dogs dick fly !</span></span> </div></div>
You can say whatever you wish but I am only saying what you have posted in the past.
Please don't send me a PM about how much you wish for me to stop and how you are just kidding to make everyone think your some top secret A-team because there isn't anyone buying it. Don't make me pull the old posts piston you lost all respect with the full of shit ass thumping whatever you did over seas BS. Problem with a lie is the hole grows so big you find your way back into it

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Sub-MOA ?

You lost when you first posted this,
Piston Petes good ole words of wisdom.
to whom it may concern.., i have 5 of these "Dark Ops" scopes, all are "product overruns" two of them on very high recoil rifles three of them on 5.56mm NATO chambered rifles, the number of rounds thru the rifles/carbines range from 200 to 2,000+, the one high recoil carbine has nearly 1,000 rnds thru it and she still holds point of aim out to 350 yds.

just my OPINION, but i consider these Counter Sniper scopes to be top notch, that is why i have 5 of them and plan on buying at least three more.