Success with Barnes, Hornady or Nosler All copper/ Gilding Bullets in .308

[bluejay75]

Greetings Gents,

If you have had any success in load development for 308 with the Barnes, (TTSX, TSX, LRX 150, 165, 168) Hornady, (GMX 150 or 168) or the Nosler Etip in 150 or 168 please chime in and share your experiences in loading 308. Please include COAL.

I have been hit or miss with monolithic bullets and have burned a lot of money in trying to get them to shoot. To date I have only had one thats reliably sub MOA.

Maybe a more experienced reloader can share some tips. Please post pics of you have any. Any comments welcomed.

JB

 

[Bmghunter]

Same journey as you, ended up with hammer bullets being the only winner. Try them out.

 

[Hawk in WY]

I have had success with Barnes LRX bullets in a number of calibers.

These bullets are different in the amount of jump needed for best results.

Load Data - Barnes Bullets

Find reloading guidelines and data for your Barnes Bullets products.

www.barnesbullets.com

Good luck.

 

[brianf]

unless being used for hunting in a non lead state etc consensus is..

for pure accuracy/groups inside 1000 yards use cup core/"berger"

for use in ELR where the environmentals and BC are a much larger factor use monolithics

BR/f-class guys have all played around with mono's and none of them stuck with it..yet they keep trying

 

[memtb]

Greetings Gents,

If you have had any success in load development for 308 with the Barnes, (TTSX, TSX, LRX 150, 165, 168) Hornady, (GMX 150 or 168) or the Nosler Etip in 150 or 168 please chime in and share your experiences in loading 308. Please include COAL.

I have been hit or miss with monolithic bullets and have burned a lot of money in trying to get them to shoot. To date I have only had one thats reliably sub MOA.

Maybe a more experienced reloader can share some tips. Please post pics of you have any. Any comments welcomed.

JB

Not specifically .308.....but, mono related.

Going back to the early ‘90’s when the Barnes monos were just getting “out of the gate”.....they were a bit difficult to work with and required (for best performance) a barrel completely cleaned of any guilded metal fowling. Some of the original comments where to essentially treat them as though they were cast bullets! Often cast bullets do not shoot well when shot through a barrel with jacketed bullet fouling!

This was not as noticeable if your bore was pristine or nearly so. In other words, a very slick, polished bore or a match grade barrel seemed to be less sensitive to using monos behind gilded metal bullets. The newer Barnes’ are much better than the original X Bullet....different annealing, adding the grooves, and perhaps a slightly different alloy!

IMO you’ve got 2 options. Never attempt to mix your shooting (monos/gilded) without a thorough cleaning! Or, polish the heck out of your barrel or change-out your barrel to a match grade barrel.

I thoroughly polished the barrel on my wife’s .338 WM, and it still doesn’t like to change from gilded to monos without a good cleaning.....removing all gilded metal deposits!

I’ve just made it simple....we use “only” monos in our hunting rifles! memtb

 

[The Durk]

I have GMX 150's I use in my hunting loads. I have to seat them a whopping .080 off the lands to get good accuracy. They shoot 1/2" at 100 yards. It's a heavily compressed load but works well with no pressure signs. These bullets are longer so they take up way more space in the case. I'd almost consider "upping" in caliber to use these types of bullets to get more powder in the case ala 30-06 in the future.

 

[Diver160651]

OP you probably need to ask yourself "why" you NEED to shoot solids, then "why" your choice is Barnes. I'm going to type more than I should in order to illustrate why I don't use Barnes unless I "have to". You can skip my attempt to talk you out of using Barnes Tipped solids as at the bottom, I give you load data that shoots 1 raged hole out of my 308 in a Krieger 1/10.

While a lot of animals have been taken with Barnes, I can test to many being lost as well. I hunt Pigs in Northern Ca and we've had bullshit anti-lead legislation for years. I know of many people who started losing animals after switching to solids. While all the animals I've shot have died, the difference in the wound channel is obviously on average much smaller, and often no blood on the ground. I started out when mandated with Barnes and was very unhappy with some of what I saw on pigs. I've use solids for ELR once places like Cutting Edge MTACs hit the market; while not hunting their BC consistency is steller. In my 6.5 pig gun, I'm finding the Hammer Hunter solids bring the consistency that the cutting edge bullets deliver. That said, I am still using magnums and Bergers out of state where I hunt Elk, and can't really compare and contrast on Elk.

As a long-range hunter, Barnes Plastic tipped bullets are not only one of the lower BC bullets in their class, but also the most inconsistent. Not only measuring the base to tip, base to ogive but you can see the groves and tips variances just eyeballing them. I know my ethical range would absolutely need to be rained way in as the long-range vertical consistency of the tipped Barnes is not something I trust. While not in my 308, just Friday I went out and tested my 7mm for this weekend's hunt. At 100 the Bergers are 1 raged hole and the Barnes are acceptable about 1/2 inch -- At 900 yards and ver light wind not much of an issue smacking an 8" plate with the Bergers, it's hit and miss with the Barnes due to elevation issues- No way can I use the Barnes nearly as far.

Here is the Cold bore and two follow-up shots sitting from my tripod on the Bergers from Friday. If you live in a state that allows you to use a better bullet that groups well and cause good organ damage why go to Solids? FWIW, the groups are between clicks, only .05mil left so SD is my friend

FWIW The Bergers are 168s going 3100; the Barnes are the 140TTSX going 3250: Where I hunt the Bergers would still be at around 2,000 fps and 1500ft-lbs and ultra-accurate, the Barnes only 1650 fps and unacceptably low energy at 870 ft-lbs.

FWIW in Ca I still use solids. Hammer Hunters are my go-to now, but also use Barnes and GMX. But this is a "have-to" situation.

If I still have not talked you out of the Barnes tipped for hunting here is the best load data I found for my 308.

308 Deviant 1-10 26”	Powder	Grains	Primmer	COAL	OGIVE	RIFLE LANDS	FPS LabRadar	FPS FFS/DROP
TRIM 2.005 Chamber 1.573	COAL	OGIVE
175gr SMK	Varget	43.5	FGMM	2.84	2.255	2.840	2.265	2730	2730
168gr Barnes TTSX	Varget	43.5	FGMM	2.83	2.173			2680
BUMP 1.572 TRIM Neck bushing 339 then 335 NOTE: Anneal 3.5 seconds Lapua Brass

 

[memtb]

If you plan on shooting game with a Barnes bullets beyond the range where velocity drops below 1800 fps or so.....then you probably should consider using one of the thin jacket, highly frangible cup and cores!

However, unless are willing to do a “reverse stalk”, putting lots of distance between you and the animal, or will pass on any close range shots where a lot of tissue and bone will be encountered..... then the monos will give you more shots on game!

In my testing of some of the popular long range, cup and core bullets fired at close range giving high velocity impacts....the cup and core penetration was measured in inches, while the monos were measured in feet. The cup and cores recovered were merely jacket shards.....with the monos giving near 100% bullet weight retained and at or near double caliber expansion!

A bonded cup and core may give the best of both worlds! However, the word “may” leaves me with only one choice.....mono’s! memtb

Obviously......you must determine how you choose to use the bullets chosen! memtb

 

[Bmghunter]

@Diver160651 I remember when I met you, I was introducing you to the hammer bullets at that time. You were talking about Barnes and GMX at that time, and looks like you've now adopted the hammer hunters too! I'm glad it works great for you too.

 

[memtb]

@Diver160651 I remember when I met you, I was introducing you to the hammer bullets at that time. You were talking about Barnes and GMX at that time, and looks like you've now adopted the hammer hunters too! I'm glad it works great for you too.

I haven’t made the transition yet....I have too many 250 grain TTSX’s to use up first! Hammer’s are certainly at the top of the list as a replacement!

The Hammer’s may be the OP’s best choice. Easy to develop a superb load, and the “petals” breaking off upon entrance increases the tissue damage above that of the typical mono! memtb

 

[Diver160651]

If you plan on shooting game with a Barnes bullets beyond the range where velocity drops below 1800 fps or so.....then you probably should consider using one of the thin jacket, highly frangible cup and cores!

However, unless are willing to do a “reverse stalk”, putting lots of distance between you and the animal, or will pass on any close range shots where a lot of tissue and bone will be encountered..... then the monos will give you more shots on game!

In my testing of some of the popular long range, cup and core bullets fired at close range giving high velocity impacts....the cup and core penetration was measured in inches, while the monos were measured in feet. The cup and cores recovered were merely jacket shards.....with the monos giving near 100% bullet weight retained and at or near double caliber expansion!

A bonded cup and core may give the best of both worlds! However, the word “may” leaves me with only one choice.....mono’s! memtb

Obviously......you must determine how you choose to use the bullets chosen! memtb

Who really cares if the Mono's hold all their weight, or penetrate until they reach Texas? I want the vitals smoked-

Shoot a ton of solids at a steel plate; let's say 600 -800 yards, look at the frag signature and energy dumped vs traditional jacketed and usually heavier bullet dumps; do the same for thousands of rounds with solids. You'll be blown away with the difference, same inside the vitals. Sure my solid might have stayed intact and exited, but usually, the solids just don't do as much carnage to the internals.

Now, if you plan for the worst shots, hitting the shoulder low, or in the spine, hit it in the ass, or really want the rib meat; sure solids will not damage as much meat - but why get less on the good shots to plan for the worst? BTW we kinda proved our own agreement right? They seem to do less meat damage when shot in less than an ideal location. Planning for a bad shot is the same argument we're seeing with Extreme-FOC archery using 700-grain arrows with people planning on what if I hit the bone.. VS High FOC guys. I say let's plan on better shots with high FOC using a moderately 500-gr heavy arrow with 200gr upfront that ultimately provides far better vertical forgiveness in terms of the yardage and the animal walking --

I hunt in the West, so maybe my view on long-range hunting is not in line with the way others hunt. But I am forced to use solids for a number of years as are all my hunting buddies, everyone "I" know will tell you they are not as effective in most cases as a good jacketed bullet.

 

[memtb]

Who really cares if the Mono's hold all their weight, or penetrate until they reach Texas? I want the vitals smoked-

Shoot a ton of solids at a steel plate; let's say 600 -800 yards, look at the frag signature and energy dumped vs traditional jacketed and usually heavier bullet dumps; do the same for thousands of rounds with solids. You'll be blown away with the difference, same inside the vitals. Sure my solid might have stayed intact and exited, but usually, the solids just don't do as much carnage to the internals.

Now, if you plan for the worst shots, hitting the shoulder low, or in the spine, hit it in the ass, or really want the rib meat; sure solids will not damage as much meat - but why get less on the good shots to plan for the worst? BTW we kinda proved our own agreement right? They seem to do less meat damage when shot in less than an ideal location. Planning for a bad shot is the same argument we're seeing with Extreme-FOC archery using 700-grain arrows with people planning on what if I hit the bone.. VS High FOC guys. I say let's plan on better shots with high FOC using a moderately 500-gr heavy arrow with 200gr upfront that ultimately provides far better vertical forgiveness in terms of the yardage and the animal walking --

I hunt in the West, so maybe my view on long-range hunting is not in line with the way others hunt. But I am forced to use solids for a number of years as are all my hunting buddies, everyone "I" know will tell you they are not as effective in most cases as a good jacketed bullet.

The “key words” in your diatribe.....”good bullet”! To “smoke” the vitals....the bullet has to get to the vitas!

I do not remember advocating “solids”! The topic was/is mono bullets for hunting! Mono bullets, while they may be of one material.....they are designed to expand. Thankfully, bullets accepted by the Geneva Convention are not required as hunting bullets.

Cast bullets are solids, in that they are of one bullet material. Cast bullets having a wide metplat kill with remarkable efficiency, yet are not practical for most hunters due to their range limitations. However, they will kill more effectively than a super high BC bullet, once the high BC bullet has dropped below it’s required expansion velocity. The problem with this scenario is that would be at extreme range, drop and wind drift would make an accurate shot very difficult! So, within reasonable hunting shot ranges.....it’s not reasonable to state that the cast is better than a rapid expansion cup and core bullet!

One thing is clearly obvious....we all have differing opinions of what “hunting” bullet best serves our needs/wants! The OP for whatever reason.....asked specifically about monos and opinions on how to make them work! Nowhere did he ask for a “replacement” bullet!

IMO, some bullets, because of their structural integrity or lack thereof, that must be regulated to near perfect shot placement at closer ranges, are impractical for the average hunter. Most hunters do not have the time in the field, or the self discipline to pass on anything less than the ideal shot!

The only real limiting factor with monos is their ability to expand at lower velocities.....which generally equate to quite a long distance. Long range hunting/shooting is pretty much a speciality, performed best by those that are qualified to shoot at extreme distances using speciality/specific bullets. Most “hunters” do not fall within that fairly narrow description! memtb

 

[Diver160651]

The “key words” in your diatribe.....”good bullet”! To “smoke” the vitals....the bullet has to get to the vitas!

I do not remember advocating “solids”! The topic was/is mono bullets for hunting! Mono bullets, while they may be of one material.....they are designed to expand. Thankfully, bullets accepted by the Geneva Convention are not required as hunting bullets.

Cast bullets are solids, in that they are of one bullet material. Cast bullets having a wide metplat kill with remarkable efficiency, yet are not practical for most hunters due to their range limitations. However, they will kill more effectively than a super high BC bullet, once the high BC bullet has dropped below it’s required expansion velocity. The problem with this scenario is that would be at extreme range, drop and wind drift would make an accurate shot very difficult! So, within reasonable hunting shot ranges.....it’s not reasonable to state that the cast is better than a rapid expansion cup and core bullet!

One thing is clearly obvious....we all have differing opinions of what “hunting” bullet best serves our needs/wants! The OP for whatever reason.....asked specifically about monos and opinions on how to make them work! Nowhere did he ask for a “replacement” bullet!

IMO, some bullets, because of their structural integrity or lack thereof, that must be regulated to near perfect shot placement at closer ranges, are impractical for the average hunter. Most hunters do not have the time in the field, or the self discipline to pass on anything less than the ideal shot!

The only real limiting factor with monos is their ability to expand at lower velocities.....which generally equate to quite a long distance. Long range hunting/shooting is pretty much a speciality, performed best by those that are qualified to shoot at extreme distances using speciality/specific bullets. Most “hunters” do not fall within that fairly narrow description! memtb

Didn't I provide the EXACT load detail for the 308 in the TTSX 168gr to make the small groups he asked for? Did you?

Yes, I took the time to indicate that small groups are not always enough and provided what I hope is food for thought to anyone thinking they "need" solids by asking "WHY"-

FWIW the last 10 elk my inadequate jacketed bullets shot at, none went more than maybe 20 yards, most less. Ranges from 150 to a hair over 900.. before you give me you need to get closer, our unit is ultra-steep as in often dangerously so and most shots are cross canyon.

Yep, I have seen a bunch of people over the years in California where solids are mandated; to have fewer recoveries -- not sure why you take issue with that.

 

[memtb]

Didn't I provide the EXACT load detail for the 308 in the TTSX 168gr to make the small groups he asked for? Did you?

Yes, I took the time to indicate that small groups are not always enough and provided what I hope is food for thought to anyone thinking they "need" solids by asking "WHY"-

FWIW the last 10 elk my inadequate jacketed bullets shot at, none went more than maybe 20 yards, most less. Ranges from 150 to a hair over 900.. before you give me you need to get closer, our unit is ultra-steep as in often dangerously so and most shots are cross canyon.

Yep, I have seen a bunch of people over the years in California where solids are mandated; to have fewer recoveries -- not sure why you take issue with that.

Load data.....no! Generally I don’t load monos in anything that small, and have limited experience with the smaller calibers!

Another misleading statement: I never said that your bullets were “inadequate” merely quite specialized in there use!
I take issue with your obviously biased, inaccurate depiction of mono hunting bullets.! I will attempt to convince myself that it’s merely accidental inaccurate description.....and not intentionally misleading!

Yes, they are solid, but only in that they are not made of dissimilar metals! Not solids, in the industry accepted description of solids as in those of the African hunters. So, for the sake of accurate bullet terminology, may they be referred to as monos.....as accepted by the hunting/shooting industry! Thanks, memtb

 

[memtb]

bluejay75, I apologize for your thread getting “derailed”! Hopefully you can glean some valuable information from suggestions given! memtb

 

[bluejay75]

It’s not derailed. It’s good reading. Main reason for solids is lead fragments in meat. Twice last season I caught a stray piece of lead or jacket when grinding meat. No telling how much lead I have eaten over my lifetime, but to feed meat that I process to my 5 year old makes you think.

I use Varget in my Nosler ETip 168 load at 43.5 grains. It shoots 3/4 minute from two of my rifles. I will make sure my barrel is clean and run a few patches of Iasso paste through it before I try them again. This is from a 16.75 inch barrel.

 

[Diver160651]

^ that’s a great reason btw

 

[Diver160651]

Load data.....no! Generally I don’t load monos in anything that small, and have limited experience with the smaller calibers!

Another misleading statement: I never said that your bullets were “inadequate” merely quite specialized in there use!
I take issue with your obviously biased, inaccurate depiction of mono hunting bullets.! I will attempt to convince myself that it’s merely accidental inaccurate description.....and not intentionally misleading!

Yes, they are solid, but only in that they are not made of dissimilar metals! Not solids, in the industry accepted description of solids as in those of the African hunters. So, for the sake of accurate bullet terminology, may they be referred to as monos.....as accepted by the hunting/shooting industry! Thanks, memtb

I am intentionally using "solids" synonymous with the three examples the OP gave, nothing more, all of which I’ve shot a lot. Remember we've been forced to use these three specific lines starting in 2007! First, we only had Barnes, then in late 2007 E-Tips showed up, and just before 2010, we started actually seeing the GMX bullets. Of course, in almost 15 years, the accepted companies producing approved non-lead bullets have grown from the three brands of the first accepted by CA. Because of the 2007 Condor mandate, we have a lot of time with these three lines in .243/6mm, .264, 284 to 30 cals. Despite the CA list rapidly growing, these tend still to have a huge market share in CA, so we get a lot of feedback amongst our group. I have far less experience with the newer Hammer hunters, although early results look promising especially in BC consistency and they seem to be fairly forgiving to load. This is the information I'm trying to share so people can investigate if these specific lines are truly the best choice, (if they have a choice) for their needs.

Again no offense intended to anyone; you have a specific need, you’ve obviously then answered the big question, “why”. my primary point. We both agree 100% that there are different reasons. Ya, I use hard-cast in my slower-moving closer range guns, heck even in my 10mm sidearm- That said, a lot of people on here certainly think they'll automatically get bone-crushing knockdown results with solids rifle bullets in that caliber family we've been discussing in every situation. First and foremost the bullet needs to land in the correct place, if the load doesn't shoot well or the inconsistent BC affects your chances, you need to consider that. I hope my time has at least given pause for anyone in a thread like this to ask "why" they are using a specific bullet and truly investigate all the tradeoffs. BTW on this specific site, I think you will find more long-range hunters than you might think.

I hope this helps clarify any misunderstanding as to my motive.. etc. In full transparency, yes I am biased as a longer-range hunter, I do not prefer a lighter solid over a high BC jacketed hunting bullet. That was solely intended as an example of my "why". Well, I do bow hunt at shorter ranges, oh no, I am using Iron Will Solid Single bevel-- ok bad attempt a being funny

PS looks like you're in Winchester -- I have a house in Laramie.