I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable.
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Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
- Thread starter Bamf911
- Start date
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
LMT: Seems they make good stuff. I want to get the 10.5" barreled upper (probably the whole rifle). Just don't have the money just yet.
LMT: Seems they make good stuff. I want to get the 10.5" barreled upper (probably the whole rifle). Just don't have the money just yet.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beeshooter505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just some food for thought, you could look into a SA M1A socom-16. they're fairly expensive but very nice to handle and fire. </div></div> For "Something that is <span style="color: #FF0000">just as handy clearing a building</span> as going out to 300 yards or so." ? The M1 is about 6" longer than it needs to be, and with ammo/optic, about 3 pounds heavier.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beeshooter505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just some food for thought, you could look into a SA M1A socom-16. they're fairly expensive but very nice to handle and fire. </div></div> For "Something that is <span style="color: #FF0000">just as handy clearing a building</span> as going out to 300 yards or so." ? The M1 is about 6" longer than it needs to be, and with ammo/optic, about 3 pounds heavier.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I see CQB and outdoor shooting as two highly different applications.
For CQB, I strongly believe a youth-length barrel and stock on a 20ga shotgun is probably ideal. The short barrel allows movement in confined spaces, and the 20ga shotgun allows adequate firepower with reduced likelihood for overpenetration. The 20ga commercial buck loads use #3 or #4 buck, 20-22 pellets, and one shot is roughly equivalent to putting an entire 20rd mag from an AR ontarget simultaneously. 7/8oz and 5/8oz slugs are definitely adequate, yet have a more acceptable overpenetration factor than the more massive 12ga slugs. Recoil is very noticeably lower, and well suited to smaller operators, including females. The shorter youth stock is more compatible with smaller statures and protective body armor.
For outdoor use, I think a rifle does better with more barrel than is the current fad. Modern hunter and varmint rifles are well configured for outdoor LE applications, and in a pinch, a 20ga slug can be very effective out to at least 100yd.
Specialized/customized rifles can be problematic when their use leads to courtroom testimony. Any departures from 'common practice' will be sought out and attacked by defense counsel, requiring justification by the user and the procurer.
Greg
I see CQB and outdoor shooting as two highly different applications.
For CQB, I strongly believe a youth-length barrel and stock on a 20ga shotgun is probably ideal. The short barrel allows movement in confined spaces, and the 20ga shotgun allows adequate firepower with reduced likelihood for overpenetration. The 20ga commercial buck loads use #3 or #4 buck, 20-22 pellets, and one shot is roughly equivalent to putting an entire 20rd mag from an AR ontarget simultaneously. 7/8oz and 5/8oz slugs are definitely adequate, yet have a more acceptable overpenetration factor than the more massive 12ga slugs. Recoil is very noticeably lower, and well suited to smaller operators, including females. The shorter youth stock is more compatible with smaller statures and protective body armor.
For outdoor use, I think a rifle does better with more barrel than is the current fad. Modern hunter and varmint rifles are well configured for outdoor LE applications, and in a pinch, a 20ga slug can be very effective out to at least 100yd.
Specialized/customized rifles can be problematic when their use leads to courtroom testimony. Any departures from 'common practice' will be sought out and attacked by defense counsel, requiring justification by the user and the procurer.
Greg
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
If you end up with an AR...the LMT is an excellent option. Whether you go for the MRP variant or not is up to you depending on your needs/budget.
However, a 16" barrel, plus 2" of FH/brake, even with a collapsible stock, may get a little long depending on the CQB situation. Just to cut a little more length off, you may want to consider a 14.5" with a permanently attached FH that brings your total barrel length to 16.1" (just make sure the FH/Brake you decide on gives you the necessary length for legality). A 14.5" gives you all you will ever need from a 5.56 out to well beyond 300yds with acceptable accuracy and will serve the CQB role adequately as well.
Assuming you don't want to go the SBR route (which I'd highly recommend)...do the above. If you decide to sink a little more time (and money and paperwork) into the equation, we can talk SBR options later.
If you end up with an AR...the LMT is an excellent option. Whether you go for the MRP variant or not is up to you depending on your needs/budget.
However, a 16" barrel, plus 2" of FH/brake, even with a collapsible stock, may get a little long depending on the CQB situation. Just to cut a little more length off, you may want to consider a 14.5" with a permanently attached FH that brings your total barrel length to 16.1" (just make sure the FH/Brake you decide on gives you the necessary length for legality). A 14.5" gives you all you will ever need from a 5.56 out to well beyond 300yds with acceptable accuracy and will serve the CQB role adequately as well.
Assuming you don't want to go the SBR route (which I'd highly recommend)...do the above. If you decide to sink a little more time (and money and paperwork) into the equation, we can talk SBR options later.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... you may want to consider a 14.5" with a permanently attached FH that brings your total barrel length to 16.1" (just make sure the FH/Brake you decide on gives you the necessary length for legality). </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... you may want to consider a 14.5" with a permanently attached FH that brings your total barrel length to 16.1" (just make sure the FH/Brake you decide on gives you the necessary length for legality). </div></div>
+1
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
The most accurate 16" AR I've owned is a POF P415. They use good barrels... and they're a Piston gun which I think is a plus. Opinions will vary on that point.
The most accurate 16" AR I've owned is a POF P415. They use good barrels... and they're a Piston gun which I think is a plus. Opinions will vary on that point.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Market Garden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="color: #FF0000">just as handy clearing a building</span> as going out to 300 yards or so. </div></div>
Old School M203 40mm Grenade Launcher
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Market Garden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="color: #FF0000">just as handy clearing a building</span> as going out to 300 yards or so. </div></div>
Old School M203 40mm Grenade Launcher
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Just about any M4 type carbine is going to work well for both as that is what it was intended for.
At our last training we had some down time and just for shits an grins I dropped to a knee and slapped the 370 yard gong a couple times. It's a chest sized plate.
My rifle is equipped with an Aimpoint, but the same is possible with iron sights, it's just harder to use holdovers with them.
Just about any M4 type carbine is going to work well for both as that is what it was intended for.
At our last training we had some down time and just for shits an grins I dropped to a knee and slapped the 370 yard gong a couple times. It's a chest sized plate.
My rifle is equipped with an Aimpoint, but the same is possible with iron sights, it's just harder to use holdovers with them.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Thanks a lot gentleman, great information. I will take a look at what LMT has to offer in a 14.5inch barreled weapon. I had considered going the Socom I route. I have not shot one but I have to believe the recoil management is quite a bit different then your average M4 type weapon.
Thanks a lot gentleman, great information. I will take a look at what LMT has to offer in a 14.5inch barreled weapon. I had considered going the Socom I route. I have not shot one but I have to believe the recoil management is quite a bit different then your average M4 type weapon.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I would have to agree with Greg. You can also pick up a Mossberg 500 for about 400 bucks, which is pretty affordable if you ask me. You can acquire and fire on targets very quickly, and missing with a 20ga is better than missing with a 5.56 IMO.
I would have to agree with Greg. You can also pick up a Mossberg 500 for about 400 bucks, which is pretty affordable if you ask me. You can acquire and fire on targets very quickly, and missing with a 20ga is better than missing with a 5.56 IMO.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Bamf,
Here's a couple questions to narrow down your search:
1. How familiar are you with the AR platform? (former military, LEO, etc? prior CQB training?)
2. What is your budget?
3. Are you shooting suppressed?
If you're just starting out, a decent RRA 16" carbine flattop and an EO Tech will probably suit you just fine. You can buy that stuff same day and start practicing. Then go get a good CQB course at one of the training centers (not sure what's available to civilians, but there's a lot of seminars and classes out there). Training > gear... always.
If, however, you're really familiar with CQB and want to go to the next level, then I'd go with a 10.5" piston gun that's threaded for a can. The shorties are SUPER handy, but the SBR tax, plus piston config, plus can, are going to set you back some coin.
If it were me, I'd probably get this: http://www.lwrci.com/p-103-m6a3-556-uppers.aspx with the 10.5" barrel. Yeah, this hobby gets pricey pretty quickly.
Bamf,
Here's a couple questions to narrow down your search:
1. How familiar are you with the AR platform? (former military, LEO, etc? prior CQB training?)
2. What is your budget?
3. Are you shooting suppressed?
If you're just starting out, a decent RRA 16" carbine flattop and an EO Tech will probably suit you just fine. You can buy that stuff same day and start practicing. Then go get a good CQB course at one of the training centers (not sure what's available to civilians, but there's a lot of seminars and classes out there). Training > gear... always.
If, however, you're really familiar with CQB and want to go to the next level, then I'd go with a 10.5" piston gun that's threaded for a can. The shorties are SUPER handy, but the SBR tax, plus piston config, plus can, are going to set you back some coin.
If it were me, I'd probably get this: http://www.lwrci.com/p-103-m6a3-556-uppers.aspx with the 10.5" barrel. Yeah, this hobby gets pricey pretty quickly.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, this hobby gets pricey pretty quickly. </div></div>
That is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year! Just ask my checkbook (but please don't ask my wife who has no idea HOW pricey things get)!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, this hobby gets pricey pretty quickly. </div></div>
That is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year! Just ask my checkbook (but please don't ask my wife who has no idea HOW pricey things get)!!!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable. </div></div>
Clearing a building is not an easy thing to do. Alone with a rifle, is even harder. Honestly, how much CQB are you actually going to be seeing? If these are legitimate concerns, your money is better spent on training and your time is better spent on acquiring a more appropriate mindset and better tactics.
As for the rifle.......
If you want a useful and handy rifle, I suggest you look into Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" concept which is theoretically similar to most of your requirements (0-300, little to no optic magnification, compact, light, and fast). Obviously, you can follow your own specs and preferences. I'm not saying buy a "Steyr Scout", just research the concept.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable. </div></div>
Clearing a building is not an easy thing to do. Alone with a rifle, is even harder. Honestly, how much CQB are you actually going to be seeing? If these are legitimate concerns, your money is better spent on training and your time is better spent on acquiring a more appropriate mindset and better tactics.
As for the rifle.......
If you want a useful and handy rifle, I suggest you look into Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" concept which is theoretically similar to most of your requirements (0-300, little to no optic magnification, compact, light, and fast). Obviously, you can follow your own specs and preferences. I'm not saying buy a "Steyr Scout", just research the concept.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I am a former marine. Currently in college working on a degree in Criminal Justice. I am really interested in going the SWAT route for a career. I am fairly familiar with the M16/M4 but I was not a spec ops guy or anything so I certainly need as much training as possible. One of the main reasons I am interested in getting a AR is so I will have a weapon to start attending some training courses with. On a side note I have a Benelli M4 and there is a defensive shotgun course near by later this month I plan on attending.
Thanks again for all the help.
I am a former marine. Currently in college working on a degree in Criminal Justice. I am really interested in going the SWAT route for a career. I am fairly familiar with the M16/M4 but I was not a spec ops guy or anything so I certainly need as much training as possible. One of the main reasons I am interested in getting a AR is so I will have a weapon to start attending some training courses with. On a side note I have a Benelli M4 and there is a defensive shotgun course near by later this month I plan on attending.
Thanks again for all the help.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
My 20ga collection includes a Mossberg bolt/rifled gun, and a Charles Daly semi with a home built scope mount converted from one originally made for an 870. It uses a Tasco dot.
I added an aftermarket Remchoke-compatible rifled choke tube. This choke works very well with simple Rem Slugger rifled slugs, and counterintuitively, also aids in dispersing a buck charge at short distances.
Instead of a 4-6" pattern at the length of a hallway, it spreads to cover a width equivalent to an entire hallway. So the choke's primary intuitive detriment actually becomes a useful advantage.
The buck's effectiveness dissipates pretty quickly as distance opens, but that's where the slugs become truly advantageous. Aternating buck and slug in the magazine takes advantage of both loads.
As a carbine, I have long coveted the Marlin Camp 45.
Greg
My 20ga collection includes a Mossberg bolt/rifled gun, and a Charles Daly semi with a home built scope mount converted from one originally made for an 870. It uses a Tasco dot.
I added an aftermarket Remchoke-compatible rifled choke tube. This choke works very well with simple Rem Slugger rifled slugs, and counterintuitively, also aids in dispersing a buck charge at short distances.
Instead of a 4-6" pattern at the length of a hallway, it spreads to cover a width equivalent to an entire hallway. So the choke's primary intuitive detriment actually becomes a useful advantage.
The buck's effectiveness dissipates pretty quickly as distance opens, but that's where the slugs become truly advantageous. Aternating buck and slug in the magazine takes advantage of both loads.
As a carbine, I have long coveted the Marlin Camp 45.
Greg
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a former marine. Currently in college working on a degree in Criminal Justice. I am really interested in going the SWAT route for a career. I am fairly familiar with the M16/M4 but I was not a spec ops guy or anything so I certainly need as much training as possible. One of the main reasons I am interested in getting a AR is so I will have a weapon to start attending some training courses with. On a side note I have a Benelli M4 and there is a defensive shotgun course near by later this month I plan on attending.
Thanks again for all the help. </div></div>
Yeah, I think a good starter carbine and an optic (EO Tech or Aimpoint) are in your future. The market is starting to become glutted with backordered ARs starting to be delivered so you should be able pick one up a good one for around $900-1000. I don't like doing CQB with irons, that's just personal preference. CQB is a lot of reflexive firing, but I do think optics can enhance your capabilities, especially in low light situations. Just my 2 cents.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a former marine. Currently in college working on a degree in Criminal Justice. I am really interested in going the SWAT route for a career. I am fairly familiar with the M16/M4 but I was not a spec ops guy or anything so I certainly need as much training as possible. One of the main reasons I am interested in getting a AR is so I will have a weapon to start attending some training courses with. On a side note I have a Benelli M4 and there is a defensive shotgun course near by later this month I plan on attending.
Thanks again for all the help. </div></div>
Yeah, I think a good starter carbine and an optic (EO Tech or Aimpoint) are in your future. The market is starting to become glutted with backordered ARs starting to be delivered so you should be able pick one up a good one for around $900-1000. I don't like doing CQB with irons, that's just personal preference. CQB is a lot of reflexive firing, but I do think optics can enhance your capabilities, especially in low light situations. Just my 2 cents.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable. </div></div>
Clearing a building is not an easy thing to do. Alone with a rifle, is even harder. Honestly, how much CQB are you actually going to be seeing? If these are legitimate concerns, your money is better spent on training and your time is better spent on acquiring a more appropriate mindset and better tactics.
As for the rifle.......
If you want a useful and handy rifle, I suggest you look into Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" concept which is theoretically similar to most of your requirements (0-300, little to no optic magnification, compact, light, and fast). Obviously, you can follow your own specs and preferences. I'm not saying buy a "Steyr Scout", just research the concept. </div></div>
Except it's a bolt action rifle...not really what most would consider ideal for "room clearing"!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable. </div></div>
Clearing a building is not an easy thing to do. Alone with a rifle, is even harder. Honestly, how much CQB are you actually going to be seeing? If these are legitimate concerns, your money is better spent on training and your time is better spent on acquiring a more appropriate mindset and better tactics.
As for the rifle.......
If you want a useful and handy rifle, I suggest you look into Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" concept which is theoretically similar to most of your requirements (0-300, little to no optic magnification, compact, light, and fast). Obviously, you can follow your own specs and preferences. I'm not saying buy a "Steyr Scout", just research the concept. </div></div>
Except it's a bolt action rifle...not really what most would consider ideal for "room clearing"!
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I will argue until the end of time that a shotgun is not the best choice for CQB. The shotgun is a weapon for certain individuals and for roles that allow specific limitations.
Concerning the original question I will echo the M4/AR platform suggestion. Rock River, Stag, LMT, Bravo Company, Noveske, Larue, Colt, CMMG.... Any of the companies I mentioned will do it really boils down to how much you have/want to spend. LMT is on several of my go to ARs. The LMT, MRP is one of the most versitile uppers on the market and really isn't out of line as far as price goes.
Functionality of the AR platform is great. Easy to learn, easy to keep up, tons of great and tested mods on the market. Research ammo and find what will suit your needs. Lastly, train and train often.
I will argue until the end of time that a shotgun is not the best choice for CQB. The shotgun is a weapon for certain individuals and for roles that allow specific limitations.
Concerning the original question I will echo the M4/AR platform suggestion. Rock River, Stag, LMT, Bravo Company, Noveske, Larue, Colt, CMMG.... Any of the companies I mentioned will do it really boils down to how much you have/want to spend. LMT is on several of my go to ARs. The LMT, MRP is one of the most versitile uppers on the market and really isn't out of line as far as price goes.
Functionality of the AR platform is great. Easy to learn, easy to keep up, tons of great and tested mods on the market. Research ammo and find what will suit your needs. Lastly, train and train often.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
The problem with optics isn't shooting it's seeing. It isn't hard to hold within a foot in the field with an aimpoint and military ammo out to 300, but seeing a target to shoot can be difficult, hence the interest in magnifiers.
The problem with optics isn't shooting it's seeing. It isn't hard to hold within a foot in the field with an aimpoint and military ammo out to 300, but seeing a target to shoot can be difficult, hence the interest in magnifiers.
G
Guest
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Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable. </div></div>
Clearing a building is not an easy thing to do. Alone with a rifle, is even harder. Honestly, how much CQB are you actually going to be seeing? If these are legitimate concerns, your money is better spent on training and your time is better spent on acquiring a more appropriate mindset and better tactics.
As for the rifle.......
If you want a useful and handy rifle, I suggest you look into Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" concept which is theoretically similar to most of your requirements (0-300, little to no optic magnification, compact, light, and fast). Obviously, you can follow your own specs and preferences. I'm not saying buy a "Steyr Scout", just research the concept. </div></div>
Except it's a bolt action rifle...not really what most would consider ideal for "room clearing"! </div></div>
The OP was describing more of utility rifle in the original post more so than a fighting carbine.
Because let's be honest here, how many times does some nut stumble on here wantin' an AR for house clearin'. There is an entire forum of these clowns. Since the author later expressed interest of taking courses, law enforcement and SWAT, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I'm just getting tired of seeing those getting into shooting or expanding to other areas of shooting getting too caught up with popularity vs. practicality....and find what would best suit their actual requirements and not their mall ninja fantasies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been doing a lot of reading and searching but it still seems to be a lot of apples and oranges. If anyone would be kind enough to pass along any info on whats best for the money I would appreciate it. I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so. I have pretty much settle on a 16 inch barrel with flash hider just to avoid the paper work. Probably a aimpoint type sight. Rest is pretty much open. Really looking for the most cost effective parts that are still reliable. </div></div>
Clearing a building is not an easy thing to do. Alone with a rifle, is even harder. Honestly, how much CQB are you actually going to be seeing? If these are legitimate concerns, your money is better spent on training and your time is better spent on acquiring a more appropriate mindset and better tactics.
As for the rifle.......
If you want a useful and handy rifle, I suggest you look into Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" concept which is theoretically similar to most of your requirements (0-300, little to no optic magnification, compact, light, and fast). Obviously, you can follow your own specs and preferences. I'm not saying buy a "Steyr Scout", just research the concept. </div></div>
Except it's a bolt action rifle...not really what most would consider ideal for "room clearing"! </div></div>
The OP was describing more of utility rifle in the original post more so than a fighting carbine.
Because let's be honest here, how many times does some nut stumble on here wantin' an AR for house clearin'. There is an entire forum of these clowns. Since the author later expressed interest of taking courses, law enforcement and SWAT, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I'm just getting tired of seeing those getting into shooting or expanding to other areas of shooting getting too caught up with popularity vs. practicality....and find what would best suit their actual requirements and not their mall ninja fantasies.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Quote:
Originally Posted By: ZLBubbaYeah, this hobby gets pricey pretty quickly.
That is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year! Just ask my checkbook (but please don't ask my wife who has no idea HOW pricey things get)!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted By: ZLBubbaYeah, this hobby gets pricey pretty quickly.
That is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year! Just ask my checkbook (but please don't ask my wife who has no idea HOW pricey things get)!!!
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP was describing more of utility rifle in the original post more so than a fighting carbine.</div></div>
Pointblank, The original post is looking for a fighting carbine. Here is a quote...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP was describing more of utility rifle in the original post more so than a fighting carbine.</div></div>
Pointblank, The original post is looking for a fighting carbine. Here is a quote...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am basically looking at building a handy 300-400 yard and in carbine. Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so.</div></div>
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
It appears that no one is really addressing the long range aspect of the equation. I see this in real life as well. Few know the limitations of the M4. The only short AR's I have seen that shoot anything that could be called a group at 300 yards are Les Baer. The Colt M4's, Bushmasters etc shoot in about a foot or more at 100 yards. What 400 yard target are you going to hit with that? When clean my suppressed 16" Les Bare will shoot 3" 5 shot groups with regularity. Some at 1/2 that. I use a NF 2.5x10 x24, with Surefire can.
It appears that no one is really addressing the long range aspect of the equation. I see this in real life as well. Few know the limitations of the M4. The only short AR's I have seen that shoot anything that could be called a group at 300 yards are Les Baer. The Colt M4's, Bushmasters etc shoot in about a foot or more at 100 yards. What 400 yard target are you going to hit with that? When clean my suppressed 16" Les Bare will shoot 3" 5 shot groups with regularity. Some at 1/2 that. I use a NF 2.5x10 x24, with Surefire can.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that no one is really addressing the long range aspect of the equation. I see this in real life as well. Few know the limitations of the M4. The only short AR's I have seen that shoot anything that could be called a group at 300 yards are Les Baer. The Colt M4's, Bushmasters etc shoot in about a foot or more at 100 yards. What 400 yard target are you going to hit with that? When clean my suppressed 16" Les Bare will shoot 3" 5 shot groups with regularity. Some at 1/2 that. I use a NF 2.5x10 x24, with Surefire can. </div></div>
It is all in how you drive the rifle. I have instructed numerous classes, Mil and LE that all have shot at 100 yards and are far less than a 12 inch group. My Mil classes all shoot IPSC sized steel out to 600 yards with ELCAN, Aimpoint, ACOG and Iron sights. The last class we had a good group of shooters and were able to shoot movers out to 300 and if I recall correctly, we were shooting chest plate sized steel.
My agency as mid length RRA with iron sights. Last month every officer in my department were instructed on the use of the paddy squat position and completed a stage of fire consisting of 5 rounds at 50 yards and 10 rounds at 115 yards. The target at 115 yards was an 8 inch steel plate, we had numerous officers hit 100% on it and only a few officers went under a 50% hit rate on the 115 yard target.
Bottom line is the fundamentals of marksmanship are key. Many times these rifles will shoot better than we can make them. The weak link in the system is often the shooter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that no one is really addressing the long range aspect of the equation. I see this in real life as well. Few know the limitations of the M4. The only short AR's I have seen that shoot anything that could be called a group at 300 yards are Les Baer. The Colt M4's, Bushmasters etc shoot in about a foot or more at 100 yards. What 400 yard target are you going to hit with that? When clean my suppressed 16" Les Bare will shoot 3" 5 shot groups with regularity. Some at 1/2 that. I use a NF 2.5x10 x24, with Surefire can. </div></div>
It is all in how you drive the rifle. I have instructed numerous classes, Mil and LE that all have shot at 100 yards and are far less than a 12 inch group. My Mil classes all shoot IPSC sized steel out to 600 yards with ELCAN, Aimpoint, ACOG and Iron sights. The last class we had a good group of shooters and were able to shoot movers out to 300 and if I recall correctly, we were shooting chest plate sized steel.
My agency as mid length RRA with iron sights. Last month every officer in my department were instructed on the use of the paddy squat position and completed a stage of fire consisting of 5 rounds at 50 yards and 10 rounds at 115 yards. The target at 115 yards was an 8 inch steel plate, we had numerous officers hit 100% on it and only a few officers went under a 50% hit rate on the 115 yard target.
Bottom line is the fundamentals of marksmanship are key. Many times these rifles will shoot better than we can make them. The weak link in the system is often the shooter.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Yeah...it is a poor carpenter that blames his tools for a bad job done.
I think that cowboy_bravo is on to it. The nut behind the butt is just as big a part of the equation as the rifle itself. To rth1800...if you have guys that can't shoot any better than 1 foot groups at 100yds with stock Colt M4s, BMs, etc., then you've got bigger problems than the rifles!!!
The OP's stated purpose of longest ranges being 300-400yds, an M4 carbine, with the right driver and ammo, is capable of minute of man hits at that range.
Yeah...it is a poor carpenter that blames his tools for a bad job done.
I think that cowboy_bravo is on to it. The nut behind the butt is just as big a part of the equation as the rifle itself. To rth1800...if you have guys that can't shoot any better than 1 foot groups at 100yds with stock Colt M4s, BMs, etc., then you've got bigger problems than the rifles!!!
The OP's stated purpose of longest ranges being 300-400yds, an M4 carbine, with the right driver and ammo, is capable of minute of man hits at that range.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Specialized/customized rifles can be problematic when their use leads to courtroom testimony. Any departures from 'common practice' will be sought out and attacked by defense counsel, requiring justification by the user and the procurer.
Greg </div></div>
You know, I had an LEO tell me the same sort of thing when doing a CHP class, stating "only load your carry weapon with ammo that is "self-defense" ammo, and keep the box. Sure it might be virtually the same as a given brand's "police ammo" but you don't want to justify to a court of know-nothings why you use "police ammo" and not "self defense" ammo while walking about town.
On the topic of CQB, I follow the argument that LE across the board pretty much came to the conclusion that SBR's of the AR form factor fit the bill. I'm perfectly comfortable being a lemming on that decision vs inviting a few 1000 guys to try and escape me in my home and see what works best. I haven't decided what caliber I want to do at this point, but converting an AR to an SBR is high on my to-do list.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Specialized/customized rifles can be problematic when their use leads to courtroom testimony. Any departures from 'common practice' will be sought out and attacked by defense counsel, requiring justification by the user and the procurer.
Greg </div></div>
You know, I had an LEO tell me the same sort of thing when doing a CHP class, stating "only load your carry weapon with ammo that is "self-defense" ammo, and keep the box. Sure it might be virtually the same as a given brand's "police ammo" but you don't want to justify to a court of know-nothings why you use "police ammo" and not "self defense" ammo while walking about town.
On the topic of CQB, I follow the argument that LE across the board pretty much came to the conclusion that SBR's of the AR form factor fit the bill. I'm perfectly comfortable being a lemming on that decision vs inviting a few 1000 guys to try and escape me in my home and see what works best. I haven't decided what caliber I want to do at this point, but converting an AR to an SBR is high on my to-do list.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I agree that the shooter can make a difference. When I say that I have shot several Colt and Bushmaster rifles and none would stay in a foot an 100 yards, I am the same guy shooting .375 at 100, with the one that shoots. I do not think my shooting is responsable for the other 11 5/8 plus. Guess we will never know now, as I sold all the no shooting POS's. And I can also say that at the range, no one I see shoots them well. IMO, the people who shoot them are happy if they go bang. Group shooting is a vague concept to most of them. Since I mostly shoot crows and coyotes at 300 yards and expect one shot kills, no rifle shooting "minute of man" is interesting to me.
I agree that the shooter can make a difference. When I say that I have shot several Colt and Bushmaster rifles and none would stay in a foot an 100 yards, I am the same guy shooting .375 at 100, with the one that shoots. I do not think my shooting is responsable for the other 11 5/8 plus. Guess we will never know now, as I sold all the no shooting POS's. And I can also say that at the range, no one I see shoots them well. IMO, the people who shoot them are happy if they go bang. Group shooting is a vague concept to most of them. Since I mostly shoot crows and coyotes at 300 yards and expect one shot kills, no rifle shooting "minute of man" is interesting to me.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree that the shooter can make a difference. When I say that I have shot several Colt and Bushmaster rifles and none would stay in a foot an 100 yards, I am the same guy shooting .375 at 100, with the one that shoots. I do not think my shooting is responsable for the other 11 5/8 plus. Guess we will never know now, as I sold all the no shooting POS's. And I can also say that at the range, no one I see shoots them well. IMO, the people who shoot them are happy if they go bang. Group shooting is a vague concept to most of them. Since I mostly shoot crows and coyotes at 300 yards and expect one shot kills, no rifle shooting "minute of man" is interesting to me. </div></div>
If what you are saying were really the case, our troops would be throwing their m16's with a cable attached ala a hammer throw as a more reliable way to hit the enemy, or peppering them with golf balls.
Clearly you had a bunch of rifles that you personally couldn't control or rifles that were severely damaged. I can't shoot what you claim @300, because I'm quite new to this and need practice, but I can still shoot less than 1/4 of your claimed performance @ 100 on every AR I've tried. 12" is simply outlandish, even with Wolf, Tula, whatever. You are approaching musket accuracy with that claim.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree that the shooter can make a difference. When I say that I have shot several Colt and Bushmaster rifles and none would stay in a foot an 100 yards, I am the same guy shooting .375 at 100, with the one that shoots. I do not think my shooting is responsable for the other 11 5/8 plus. Guess we will never know now, as I sold all the no shooting POS's. And I can also say that at the range, no one I see shoots them well. IMO, the people who shoot them are happy if they go bang. Group shooting is a vague concept to most of them. Since I mostly shoot crows and coyotes at 300 yards and expect one shot kills, no rifle shooting "minute of man" is interesting to me. </div></div>
If what you are saying were really the case, our troops would be throwing their m16's with a cable attached ala a hammer throw as a more reliable way to hit the enemy, or peppering them with golf balls.
Clearly you had a bunch of rifles that you personally couldn't control or rifles that were severely damaged. I can't shoot what you claim @300, because I'm quite new to this and need practice, but I can still shoot less than 1/4 of your claimed performance @ 100 on every AR I've tried. 12" is simply outlandish, even with Wolf, Tula, whatever. You are approaching musket accuracy with that claim.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I did not "claim" anything. I stated it as a fact. These were new boxed rifles. I would suggest you shoot one and get the poi just right, then heat it up with about 50 rds and see what the total group looks like. I am guessing you will be all over the paper. But what do I know, I only owned 4 of them. I may have had very bad ones.
As far as our troops shooting, how many rounds do you think they shoot per kill. I would guess about 100,000.
I will say this, You will never shoot better than your equiptment. This is not a "claim" either, it is a fact. If yours shoots to your ability and satisfaction, good enough. I can tell you that no Colt carbine will shoot to mine without a lot of work.
I did not "claim" anything. I stated it as a fact. These were new boxed rifles. I would suggest you shoot one and get the poi just right, then heat it up with about 50 rds and see what the total group looks like. I am guessing you will be all over the paper. But what do I know, I only owned 4 of them. I may have had very bad ones.
As far as our troops shooting, how many rounds do you think they shoot per kill. I would guess about 100,000.
I will say this, You will never shoot better than your equiptment. This is not a "claim" either, it is a fact. If yours shoots to your ability and satisfaction, good enough. I can tell you that no Colt carbine will shoot to mine without a lot of work.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Ok...ok. We get it. You are a good shot...you shoot well with a particular rifle at a particular range on crows/yotes, with a scope, etc., etc. We'll accept those as "facts" for the purposes of this discussion.
Here are some more facts for your consideration:
1) the OP (you know...the guy who started the thread) wanted a firearm for CQB and one also capable of reaching a target accurately at 300yds. Your rifle that you continue to use as an example and compare to an M4 may be a fine rifle in the field, but won't be worth a tinker's damn in a CQB setting. It isn't a multi-role rifle in that regard. An M4 or similar rifle as recommended...WILL.
2) every M4 I have ever fired (several hundred over the years...civilian M4 variants and military select-fire issue) has been capable of 2MOA (or better) accuracy right out of the box with 55gr ball ammo (and obviously not in F/A). Yes, you can get some accuracy decline once the weapon goes through a few mag dumps or more...generally nowhere in the range of 12MOA like what you are describing.
3) no Colt (or other) M4 carbine, out of the box, was EVER designed to compete with a Les Baer M4, railed HG, scoped with a NF 2.5-10x scope...stop comparing apples to freaking oranges already. We get the "fact" that you have a nice AR that meets your needs. M4 carbines are battle rifles and will achieve accuracy accordingly, including out to ranges of 500-600yds in the hands of a qualified shooter with proper ammo.
4) the rifles you encountered amazingly sub-standard accuracy with are the EXCEPTION, not the RULE.
5) Finally, many (most) of the problems you are claiming to be the result of the rifle can be tied directly to the shooter or a bad rifle (exception...not rule), inadequate training/understanding of the weapon system, or inadequate maintenance of the weapon system.
Ok...ok. We get it. You are a good shot...you shoot well with a particular rifle at a particular range on crows/yotes, with a scope, etc., etc. We'll accept those as "facts" for the purposes of this discussion.
Here are some more facts for your consideration:
1) the OP (you know...the guy who started the thread) wanted a firearm for CQB and one also capable of reaching a target accurately at 300yds. Your rifle that you continue to use as an example and compare to an M4 may be a fine rifle in the field, but won't be worth a tinker's damn in a CQB setting. It isn't a multi-role rifle in that regard. An M4 or similar rifle as recommended...WILL.
2) every M4 I have ever fired (several hundred over the years...civilian M4 variants and military select-fire issue) has been capable of 2MOA (or better) accuracy right out of the box with 55gr ball ammo (and obviously not in F/A). Yes, you can get some accuracy decline once the weapon goes through a few mag dumps or more...generally nowhere in the range of 12MOA like what you are describing.
3) no Colt (or other) M4 carbine, out of the box, was EVER designed to compete with a Les Baer M4, railed HG, scoped with a NF 2.5-10x scope...stop comparing apples to freaking oranges already. We get the "fact" that you have a nice AR that meets your needs. M4 carbines are battle rifles and will achieve accuracy accordingly, including out to ranges of 500-600yds in the hands of a qualified shooter with proper ammo.
4) the rifles you encountered amazingly sub-standard accuracy with are the EXCEPTION, not the RULE.
5) Finally, many (most) of the problems you are claiming to be the result of the rifle can be tied directly to the shooter or a bad rifle (exception...not rule), inadequate training/understanding of the weapon system, or inadequate maintenance of the weapon system.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I do appreciate the response. I am not sure about the appropriate terminology for the type of rifle it would be considered. I do know you train like you fight. So what you want to train with is the exact weapon your gonna fight with. In hometown America I think it is more likely the majority of engagements A LE type officer will face are from 300 yards and in most likely even shorter then that, common sense and some articles I have read tell me that. The shooter certainly has more to do with it then the rifle and training, training, training. The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in war. To clarify what I am interested in is, if a Federal LE agency or a state agency were to issue me a carbine what would it be? Thats the type of weapon I want to train with because that is what I will use in the fight. Now I have heard some agency allow you to use your own weapon, so buying something now to train with that later could be used as a duty weapon would be Ideal. Lets say the price range is from 1500-2500, from everything I have seen thats what it takes to get a decent quailty rifle like you would pretty much want it out of the box.
Keep it coming guys, and thanks for your time and help.
On a side note if there are any individuals out there that have worked for Federal law enforement or SWAT teams and you feel like sharing some of the Pro's and con's of the career,please shoot me a IM.
Henry Ferguson
I do appreciate the response. I am not sure about the appropriate terminology for the type of rifle it would be considered. I do know you train like you fight. So what you want to train with is the exact weapon your gonna fight with. In hometown America I think it is more likely the majority of engagements A LE type officer will face are from 300 yards and in most likely even shorter then that, common sense and some articles I have read tell me that. The shooter certainly has more to do with it then the rifle and training, training, training. The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in war. To clarify what I am interested in is, if a Federal LE agency or a state agency were to issue me a carbine what would it be? Thats the type of weapon I want to train with because that is what I will use in the fight. Now I have heard some agency allow you to use your own weapon, so buying something now to train with that later could be used as a duty weapon would be Ideal. Lets say the price range is from 1500-2500, from everything I have seen thats what it takes to get a decent quailty rifle like you would pretty much want it out of the box.
Keep it coming guys, and thanks for your time and help.
On a side note if there are any individuals out there that have worked for Federal law enforement or SWAT teams and you feel like sharing some of the Pro's and con's of the career,please shoot me a IM.
Henry Ferguson
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
Well, there's a good number of LEOs on the site and I'm sure they'll point you toward a solid, dependable AR platform. I'm almost positive you won't have to worry about making a shot at 300 yards as an LEO. I've got a buddy that's on a midsize city's SWAT team. He's and his buddy are the sniper team and they're the only ones that really practice a lot of distance engagements. The breaching team has way more people, and they're practicing for engagements unde 50 yards, usually less than 20 yards.
That's why I told you, if it's a strictly CQB platform, I'll always take an EOTech. I don't like them for ranged work, but for CQB I prefer it. The great news is that there's a lot of good AR choices for you and most of them will give you the "train like you fight" experience. Hell, I envy you. I always enjoy going out and buying a rifle for a specific purpose, and the AR platform gives you the chance to tailor the rifle EXACTLY like you want to. Enjoy the shopping/building experience!
Well, there's a good number of LEOs on the site and I'm sure they'll point you toward a solid, dependable AR platform. I'm almost positive you won't have to worry about making a shot at 300 yards as an LEO. I've got a buddy that's on a midsize city's SWAT team. He's and his buddy are the sniper team and they're the only ones that really practice a lot of distance engagements. The breaching team has way more people, and they're practicing for engagements unde 50 yards, usually less than 20 yards.
That's why I told you, if it's a strictly CQB platform, I'll always take an EOTech. I don't like them for ranged work, but for CQB I prefer it. The great news is that there's a lot of good AR choices for you and most of them will give you the "train like you fight" experience. Hell, I envy you. I always enjoy going out and buying a rifle for a specific purpose, and the AR platform gives you the chance to tailor the rifle EXACTLY like you want to. Enjoy the shopping/building experience!
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not "claim" anything. I stated it as a fact. These were new boxed rifles. I would suggest you shoot one and get the poi just right, then heat it up with about 50 rds and see what the total group looks like. I am guessing you will be all over the paper. But what do I know, I only owned 4 of them. I may have had very bad ones.
As far as our troops shooting, how many rounds do you think they shoot per kill. I would guess about 100,000.
I will say this, You will never shoot better than your equiptment. This is not a "claim" either, it is a fact. If yours shoots to your ability and satisfaction, good enough. I can tell you that no Colt carbine will shoot to mine without a lot of work. </div></div>
Your guess is about as far off as the reality of the 12" groups you are peddling. It took an average of 50,000 rds from a infantryman in Vietnam for 1 kill. Training and doctrine are light years ahead of that today, that kind of recklessness is a thing of the past.
I've had loose barrels on some hideous AR's shoot tighter than 12" at 200 yards. Send me one that shoots 12" at 100, if indeed it shoots as you are stating without anything being loose or broken, I will buy it off you for double what you paid.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not "claim" anything. I stated it as a fact. These were new boxed rifles. I would suggest you shoot one and get the poi just right, then heat it up with about 50 rds and see what the total group looks like. I am guessing you will be all over the paper. But what do I know, I only owned 4 of them. I may have had very bad ones.
As far as our troops shooting, how many rounds do you think they shoot per kill. I would guess about 100,000.
I will say this, You will never shoot better than your equiptment. This is not a "claim" either, it is a fact. If yours shoots to your ability and satisfaction, good enough. I can tell you that no Colt carbine will shoot to mine without a lot of work. </div></div>
Your guess is about as far off as the reality of the 12" groups you are peddling. It took an average of 50,000 rds from a infantryman in Vietnam for 1 kill. Training and doctrine are light years ahead of that today, that kind of recklessness is a thing of the past.
I've had loose barrels on some hideous AR's shoot tighter than 12" at 200 yards. Send me one that shoots 12" at 100, if indeed it shoots as you are stating without anything being loose or broken, I will buy it off you for double what you paid.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
My suggestion. This...
https://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=141
My suggestion. This...
https://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=141
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... The only short AR's I have seen that shoot anything that could be called a group at 300 yards are Les Baer. The Colt M4's, Bushmasters etc shoot in about a foot or more at 100 yards.... </div></div>
Sorry, but I just can't let that statement stand. I've well over a thousand rounds through my "stock" Bushmaster Upper on Cav Arms lower, and accuracy is quite acceptable. This one has 14.5" "M4" contour barrel w/ pinned YHM FH. Assuming your statement is "fact", then the best that I should possibly hope for would be 3"+ at 25M?
With your "claim" in mind, I decided to video my monthly "Quick and Dirty" Army Qualification Test (AQT), shot late yesterday afternoon w/S&B 55 gn FMJ. It is not a "timed" event, the focus is on marksmanship. Video is not that great, but serves the purpose (no "cheating").
It will easily do 3" or better at 100 yrds with ball ammo....
Cheers,
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... The only short AR's I have seen that shoot anything that could be called a group at 300 yards are Les Baer. The Colt M4's, Bushmasters etc shoot in about a foot or more at 100 yards.... </div></div>
Sorry, but I just can't let that statement stand. I've well over a thousand rounds through my "stock" Bushmaster Upper on Cav Arms lower, and accuracy is quite acceptable. This one has 14.5" "M4" contour barrel w/ pinned YHM FH. Assuming your statement is "fact", then the best that I should possibly hope for would be 3"+ at 25M?
With your "claim" in mind, I decided to video my monthly "Quick and Dirty" Army Qualification Test (AQT), shot late yesterday afternoon w/S&B 55 gn FMJ. It is not a "timed" event, the focus is on marksmanship. Video is not that great, but serves the purpose (no "cheating").
It will easily do 3" or better at 100 yrds with ball ammo....
Cheers,
Bill
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so..</div></div>
Call in Artillery...
I would suggest open iron sights to start out with. Assuming that you want the CQB rifle for personal protection and home protection, anything with a 16" barrel will get the job done, standard M4 or AR15 platform will do it. As far as accuracy out to 300 yards (hunting?), again 16" 1:7 twist rate barrels will let you throw the heavy rounds down-range hard. As said before, use iron sights, you can see out to 300 yards through irons and hit a target accurately with practice.
Practice whatever you get in all shooting situations, knowing your weapon is better than having the best weapon!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bamf911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Something that is just as handy clearing a building as going out to 300 yards or so..</div></div>
Call in Artillery...
I would suggest open iron sights to start out with. Assuming that you want the CQB rifle for personal protection and home protection, anything with a 16" barrel will get the job done, standard M4 or AR15 platform will do it. As far as accuracy out to 300 yards (hunting?), again 16" 1:7 twist rate barrels will let you throw the heavy rounds down-range hard. As said before, use iron sights, you can see out to 300 yards through irons and hit a target accurately with practice.
Practice whatever you get in all shooting situations, knowing your weapon is better than having the best weapon!
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will easily do 3" or better at 100 yrds with ball ammo....</div></div>
Bill:
So does my Bushmaster Modular carbine with 55 grain ball. And I have no problem at 300 yards hitting a 12" plate, with an Eotech for a sight.
The notion of 12" groups at 100 yards is simply silly. I can do that with a stock Glock.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will easily do 3" or better at 100 yrds with ball ammo....</div></div>
Bill:
So does my Bushmaster Modular carbine with 55 grain ball. And I have no problem at 300 yards hitting a 12" plate, with an Eotech for a sight.
The notion of 12" groups at 100 yards is simply silly. I can do that with a stock Glock.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
I might suggest a different avenue of approach. The use of one weapon to try to fill the needs of all engagements seems like an unneccesary undertaking. To insist on using an AR platfrom to do CQB work is not neccesarily the best choice of weapon if a handgun is readily available. A lot of clearing drills/classes today involve clearing empty rooms and crossing uncluttered avenues of approach. Anyone who has really done this type of work knows how hard it is to clear under a bed or in a closet with two hands full of rifle. A good handgun with light attached (we use HK USP 45's) makes it a lot easier to clear areas in a true CQB type environment (furniture, clothing on the floor, closets, pantry's etc). And when you end up engaging someone the 45 has always been enough to put down what shows up. Plus if it goes from force on force encounter to arrest/detainment it is definately easier to engage hands on with a cover officer while holstering rather than slinging an AR. A good AR in a perimeter position or if dogs are to be encountered as an initial entry guy with a suppressor attached (there is no joy in hearing an AR go off in tight quarters I can tell you!) That would be my way to go. Train hard with the right equipment, survive the next encounter. Just my .02 Good Luck.
I might suggest a different avenue of approach. The use of one weapon to try to fill the needs of all engagements seems like an unneccesary undertaking. To insist on using an AR platfrom to do CQB work is not neccesarily the best choice of weapon if a handgun is readily available. A lot of clearing drills/classes today involve clearing empty rooms and crossing uncluttered avenues of approach. Anyone who has really done this type of work knows how hard it is to clear under a bed or in a closet with two hands full of rifle. A good handgun with light attached (we use HK USP 45's) makes it a lot easier to clear areas in a true CQB type environment (furniture, clothing on the floor, closets, pantry's etc). And when you end up engaging someone the 45 has always been enough to put down what shows up. Plus if it goes from force on force encounter to arrest/detainment it is definately easier to engage hands on with a cover officer while holstering rather than slinging an AR. A good AR in a perimeter position or if dogs are to be encountered as an initial entry guy with a suppressor attached (there is no joy in hearing an AR go off in tight quarters I can tell you!) That would be my way to go. Train hard with the right equipment, survive the next encounter. Just my .02 Good Luck.
Re: Suggestions on a CQB type carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSmokeRolls</div><div class="ubbcode-body">POF gas piston 16"
.......SmokeRolls </div></div>
+1. accurate and reliable
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSmokeRolls</div><div class="ubbcode-body">POF gas piston 16"
.......SmokeRolls </div></div>
+1. accurate and reliable
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