Supertrickler settings thread

[secondofangle2]

Just got mine 3 days ago (and I LOVE this thing which is rivaled only by my AMP annealer as an object of technological reloading awesomeness), and have spent about 4 hours each night trying to use human intelligence to improve upon the artificial intelligence settings. I will revise this OP as I learn more how to do it (and what errors I'm currently making), but here's a start to how I have painstakingly arrived at some pretty impressive improvements on the AI, and some of my settings. I welcome others to post their settings here too for the benefit of all. General notes and process:

• I read the entire 74 page manual
• I set realistic rational goals - for me that means a 10% overthrow rate with the fastest times possible; and an error tolerance (+/- 0.02 vs 0.04 grains) that is proportional to the kernel size and charge weight. For my 50 BMG charges, I set +/- 0.04
• Make sure scale is level, flourescent lights and fans off - you don't want to spend 20-30 minutes tuning an unleveled ST
• I highly recommend you set up and use the ST in a climate controlled environment. The fine motor is highly temperature sensitive, and moving to a hotter or colder environment will wreak havoc on your settings and drop times
• Keep at least 1/2 pound of powder in the trickler at all times to minimize variable loading of the tubes. Because you cannot see the level, just throw in a pound and top off every so many rounds. It doesn't take much longer to empty 1 pound than it does 1/2 pound. If you're getting aberrations in your throws, first make sure the hopper has not emptied too far
• I adjust the pulse as per manual so that the 100% setting does not allow powder to spill out of the cup, and the 1% setting barely allows any to trickle out. Also, as per below, the vibratory motor is sensitive to heat and tube loading. If you're getting aberrations in throws, ask yourself, has the fine/pulse had time to equilibrate to the new powder flows and the new operating temperature (which may fluctuate during a reloading session as the motor heats up). Finally, if you're using a load that has a bulk tube dispensation, set the max powder flows with a "bed" of powder in the cup. you will get a higher "max" vibration speed (which is better) with a bed of powder that minimizes kernels bouncing out of the empty cup
• I start with the AI to get the basic settings; also, do not interfere with the settings until the purple hat turns on (although page 69 of the manual shows how you can tell based on the instrument colors which ones are still being programmed by AI.)
• All the while I observe where the machine seems to be inefficient, how it's dispensing powder, looking at the tubes and the readouts on the screen including the bulk, fine, and pulse inflights which are recorded after each drop, see below
• I first go in and reduce the "wait (stabilization) times" from the AI generated times (for Bulk, fine, and pules) which tend to be >500ms, and I take them down to ~300-350ms to see if I can get away with that by trying 10 throws to observe what's happening. You can especially reduce the bulk stable time down to about 350ms if there is a fine with an offset and pulse after that (which there should be). HOWEVER, if you're too aggressive reducing the stable times, variable inflights may result. This is bad - you need consistent inflights.
• Speaking of inflights, if you are having trouble getting consistent ones, first check if your hopper is full; next make sure it's not soon after a change in the settings, because it will take 5-10 throws for them to equilibrate; then of course make sure your stable times are sufficient. For inconsistent pulse inflights consider changing the cautious time off optional feature.
• For both Bulk and Fine, you generally want the inputted "inflight weights" (yellow) to approximate the iteratively measured weights by the machine (in grey) so it can anticipate what's happening with the next throw and make adjustments in real time - so you can basically leave these alone unless they're markedly divergent (the grey one will vary from throw to throw because of stochastic variance; you can see the last inflights on the screen for the last drop after it stablizes, see above and below). Also, pay attention to the last pulse inflights as they may be a clue to overthrows with the last pulse
• I usually put in an offset in the Bulk settings so that it stops far enough away from the final charge that the fine setting can do a major portion of the "catch up" rather than the pulse. (If the final bulk dispensation is too close to the target weight, the fine tube won't kick in and it will "pulse" up the final charge. This is much slower). Usually the offset is on the order of 1 grain, but varies
• I markedly reduce the ramp down weight in the fine setting that AI has set so that it doesn't start to slow down till its damn near the final charge. Like 0.1 or 0.4 grains. With a "stabalize time" on the order of 300ms
• For the fine profile I leave the high at 100% unless I'm getting a kernel bouncing out more than occasionally - then I take it to 90%; for the minimal setting, I have some (like RL15) at 70% minimum (this is the "speed" that it "ramps down" to in the fine cycle). For RL50, the minimum is 20% so it may turn out that it depends on grain size. For some charges (like Accurate 2015), I have the low speed at 5%!
• For the "pulse on" time, it depends on how much powder comes out with a pulse at the set pulse motor speed. For RL15 I have it at 145ms, for RL50 I have it at about 70ms. For the "pulse off time" I'm converging on a value of about 250-300ms - I don't want it to pulse and wait and pulse and wait. I want the pulses in relatively rapid succession. however it may need longer for the larger powders.
• When you start to tinker with it, it takes a while to understand what is happening. But, just like the Hornady podcast 50 says, you can see quickly what DOESN'T work (major caveat here; because changing settings can change powder density in the tube and therefore inflight weight, you have to throw at least 5 charges after a setting change to allow it to equilibrate. If you change something and get an immediate overthrow, don't abandon the new settings until you see what happens 5 throws down the road after everything equilibrates.). Once you think you have it tuned, I encourage you to record 20 consecutive drop times and average them to check and see if you're really achieving anything. For my RL15 308 load tonight, I dicked around for a long time trying to beat 7 seconds for 45 grains, and then I started logging my times for 20 drops and averaging them and realized I was chasing my tail - my tweaks were all converging on the optimal result (7 seconds, I think?) and fixing one problem created another. There is irreducible stochastic variance in dropping powder charges.
• It was then that I realized that the "optimal" settings for 45gr of RL15 were not optimal for 25gr of RL15; my times for 25 grains were greater than those for 45 grains! I had to adjust the inflight weights, the ramp down weight, the low motor speed in the fine setting and the pulse settings; doing so nearly halved my throw times for 25 grains compared to the settings that worked for RL15 with 45 grain weights.
• If you have good speeds but you're getting excessive overcharges, look at the fine tube to see what it's doing. Also check the screen where it tells you under the charge time the contributions of the bulk fine and pulse. Is the fine overshooting with inflight? or the pulse? If it's the fine, try adding an offset to the bulk on the order of 1 grain. Or you can increase the ramp down weight or change the low motor speed. Personally I don't think its likely to be the stable time as long as that's over 300ms. If it's the pulse, try to figure out if the pulses are too big; if they are, change the pulse on time or the motor speed. If they're too frequent, increase the pulse off time.
• Under the time for the last drop once it stabilizes, there will be bulk, fine, and pulse times (if each function was used). Those are the inflights for that last drop. If you had an overage or a very fast or slow one, those times can guide you as to the cause of the deviation. Was the inflight for the fine motor or pulse higher than average? That may be the source of an overthrow. Were they smaller than average? That could cause a long drop.
• Confirmed observations show that the vibrator motor needs to "warm up". So if you change environments or get it tuned for when its hot and let it cool off, you may need to let it warm up again to duplicate your previous settings. Or increase the motor speed and monitor the inflights and decrease vibrator speed as the motor warms up.

So here you go. For RL15 at 25 grains, my 20 drop average time, according to Excel, was 4.79 seconds with one overthrow among 20 and these settings:
Bulk profile
Speed 100%
Ramp 500ms
Motor 1200 mA
Inflight 5.5 (set) 5.4 (measured - it varies drop to drop; that was the last one on the screen when I recorded the settings)
Setpoint offset 0.8gr
Stable time 325ms
Fine Profile:
High 100%
Ramp down 0.10 grains
Stable time 300ms
Low 70%
Inflight 0.36 set 0.45 measured on the last throw
Pulse profile:
Speed 65%
On 145 ms
Off 225ms
Cautious time 400ms

For RL15 at 45 grains (308 caliber size) 7.05 second average across 20 drops with no overages (I could probably make it faster)
Bulk profile
Speed 100%
Ramp 500ms
Motor 1200 mA
Inflight 5.9 (set) same as measured
Setpoint offset 0.8gr
Stable time 325ms
Fine Profile:
High 100%
Ramp down 0.10 grains
Stable time 300ms
Low 40%
Inflight 0.30 (same as measured)
Pulse profile:
Speed 60%
On 140 ms
Off 225ms
Cautious time 500ms

For RL50 at 236 grains: (I didn't put it in Excel but it was averaging about 14 seconds I estimate)

Bulk Profile:
Speed 100%
Ramp up 500ms
motor 1200mA
Inflight 7.6/7.6
Setpoint offset 1.5gr
Stable time 325ms
Fine profile:
High 90%
Ramp down 0.35gr
Stable time 325
Low Speed 20%
Inflight 0.10 grains set/measured
Pulse profile:
Speed 60%
On time 100ms
off time 250 ms
cautious time 500ms

Accurate 2015 at 24.5 grains; average over 20 throws (2 overthrows) was 4.785 seconds
Bulk profile:
speed 100%
ramp 500 ms
current 1200
inflight 4.93
setpoint offset 0.75gr
stable time 325 ms

Fine profile
high 100%
ramp 0.3gr
stable time 350 ms
Low speed 1%
inflight .25 yellow .27 grey

pulse profile
speed 75%
pulse on 150 ms
pulse off 225 ms
cautious time 600 ms

VARGET 25 grains; 20 drops no failures average time 5.8 seconds
It also seems to work for 44 grains with average ~7seconds and 5% failure rate.

Bulk:
100% motor
500 ms
1200 mA
Inflight 6.5/6.7
setpont offset 0.8 grains
stable time 350 ms

Fine:
High/Low speed 100/59%
Ramp down 0.30 gr/Inflight 0.35/0.35gr
Stable time 384ms

Pulse:
Speed 70%
Pulse on 130/ Pulse off 300ms
cautious time 700ms

RETUMBO - 8.2 seconds 90% success rate over 40 throws, 92.5 grains (for 338LM), a very difficult powder to dispense. Took hours to achieve this. Consider it an extreme limit of the possible. And make sure your vibratory settings are spot on before you apply these settings. Indeed, if these settings don't work, FIRST check your vibrator settings.) For a powder like this, you're going to sacrifice a TON of speed for >90% success rate, and I don't think it's worth it, you will be faster with 8 second throws and 1/10 discards. Interestingly, I redid these settings pretty much from scratch 2 weeks later and wound up with almost identical settings. A couple of tweaks allowed me to shave off 2 full seconds.

BULK
6.5 yellow inflight
Offset 1.1gr
Stable time 350ms
ramp 500ms

FINE
High 90%
Low 40%
Ramp 0.30gr
Inflights ..38
Stable time 400

PULSE
High 100%
Nominal 50%
Time ON 125ms
Time OFF 250 ms
Cautious time 800ms

AR-Comp 41 grains 7.5 seconds average 94% success over 50 throws (about the same time and success rate for 22 grains; I did adjust down the bulk and fine inflight times as they were lower with the reduced cycle time).
Bulk
100%
inflight 5.5
ramp 500ms
offset 1.0gr
current 1200
stable time 300

Fine
High 100%
Low 95%
Ramp down .3
Inflight .5
stable time 350ms

Pulse
High 100%
Nominal 90%
Pulse on 130
PUlse off 250
Cautious time 600ms

CFE223 50 drops 98% accuracy (+/- 0.02gr) 25 grain charge

Bulk
Speed 100%
Inflight 5.0 gr
Ramp 500ms
Offset 1.5 gr
Current 1200
Stable time 300ms

Fine
High 100%
Low 75%
Ramp down .55 gr
Inflight .35 (varies; 0.4-.45 may be a better setting)
Stable time 325ms

Pulse
Hi limit 100%
Nominal 75%
Pulse on 110ms
Pulse off 250 ms
Cautious time off 500 ms (could probably go lower)

Hope this helps! Please list your observations and settings in this thread to help others!

 

[secondofangle2]

RETUMBO settings were very difficult to achieve and required a "trick" with the vibratory settings: If I set it at 130 there were no kernels bouncing out but it was too slow. 140 had kernels bouncing out a lot. With 130 setting, the fine tube was too slow. SO I set it at 140 but put the max on the fine tube at 90%. Of course this affects the pulse too, but can be dealt with in the pulse settings. Also, I could not get good times if the "low" vibration setting had dithering at 40, so I set it at 50 which had a steady stream flowing out. I don't want the machine to "think" that a dithering tube is the minimum.

With RETUMBO, if you're under 10 seconds you're doing great by the way. I have a hard time repeating my 8 second drops.

 

[tydex21]

I’m still waiting on my ST, but just wanted to say thanks for the informative post as well as the time you’ve put into this so others may benefit. Thanks!

 

[dttheliman]

RETUMBO settings (very hard to achieve. I logged 40 rounds, 90% success rate, 9.9 seconds average drop after HOURS of tweaking, fiddling, tuning. Consider it an extreme limit of the possible. And make sure your vibratory settings are spot on before you apply these settings. Indeed, if these settings don't work, FIRST check your vibrator settings.)

BULK
7.49 grey 7.20 yellow inflight
Offset 1.0gr
Stable time 400ms

FINE
High 100%
Low 92%
Ramp 0.65gr
Inflights .44 gray .38 yellow
Stable time 425 ms

PULSE
High 90%
Low 35%
Time ON 115ms
Time OFF 400 ms
Cautious tiime 800ms

Agreed Retumbo is funky- quick question did you leave bulk at 100%?, because following your settings , I got way more overthrows until I dialed bulk back to 85% , but speed suffered

 

[secondofangle2]

I had bulk 100%. However I’m running a (beta) firmware update made specifically to deal with “flow waves” in the big tube so that right there may be the difference. I should have mentioned that above

 

[Cornerstonearmory]

I’m still waiting on my ST, but just wanted to say thanks for the informative post as well as the time you’ve put into this so others may benefit. Thanks!

This^

Thanks for compiling all this info. I just ordered mine and can’t wait to get it set up. @secondofangle2

 

[secondofangle2]

FYI guys many of these settings are riding the razor's edge and will need tweaking by individual users, especially with different versions of firmware which can change things.

 

[tydex21]

Finally got mine in and am playing with it. Do you find most of the above still applies to v2.3.1? Thanks!

 

[secondofangle2]

I'm not sure because I'm working from a beta 3.0 version. I think it will get you close though. If not we can troubleshoot here or via PM

 

[jthor]

great concept, but the way it performed I did not like, sold within 2 months of owning. The AI is honestly poor and settings even required tweaking from one loading session to the next.
Shouldn’t have to spend several minutes a load session having to tweak for a powder or spend even more having to redo settings for a powder I’ve already worked with.

Back to the V4 AutoTrickler and this was prior to the V4 software update.

 

[category_theory]

I hope someone here can help me!

I recently picked up a Supertrickler V2 and I have an FX120i. I install the new platen and I get an “E” on the display. Obviously enough since the platen is so much smaller. I then try to do a recalibration w a precision 100gm weight but I keep getting a “cal e” error! I’ve reset the machine, I’ve warmed it up. Etc. I replaced the original platen and recalibrated and it worked fine. What am I doing wrong???!

 

[akh223]

I hope someone here can help me!

I recently picked up a Supertrickler V2 and I have an FX120i. I install the new platen and I get an “E” on the display. Obviously enough since the platen is so much smaller. I then try to do a recalibration w a precision 100gm weight but I keep getting a “cal e” error! I’ve reset the machine, I’ve warmed it up. Etc. I replaced the original platen and recalibrated and it worked fine. What am I doing wrong???!

It sounds like the scale may be set to calibrate with a different weight. Can you confirm that it is wanting a 100gm weight when you do the calibration?

 

[category_theory]

It sounds like the scale may be set to calibrate with a different weight. Can you confirm that it is wanting a 100gm weight when you do the calibration?

I set it to calibrate to 100 w my 100 weight. And then did it again w my 50 weight. Same issue both times.

 

[Max_The_Phoenix]

I set it to calibrate to 100 w my 100 weight. And then did it again w my 50 weight. Same issue both times.

That’s the only reason I bought the FZ120i instead

 

[spife7980]

Have you zeroed/tared the scale? E means it’s empty, aka, doesn’t have the expected empty weight in it.

 

[nalye]

Did you reset and re-programmed the scale according to the manual?

 

[secondofangle2]

For the record, OP (me) sold his ST last week

Cuz winter is coming.

 

[Max_The_Phoenix]

For the record, OP (me) sold his ST last week

Cuz winter is coming.

So what are you using now?

 

[secondofangle2]

Hand throwing and trickling until the IP setup is released

 

[category_theory]

So net net I spoke w Cambridge and we went through all the steps I had already gone through a few times, resetting, reprogramming, recalibrating etc. they ended up having me sending my scale back for inspection…. I even spoke to one of their engineers. Good times. Either way thanks all for the suggestions!