Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

A10XRIFLE

A10XRIFLE

Gunny Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 26, 2002
1,587
127
55
N Kansas City, MO
www.gaprecision.com
#1
My opinion: Suppressing gas guns is just not a good Idea.

Why, Its kinda like building a 1200 HP car and putting a Muffler on it and a Parachute behind it.

As the bullet exits the muzzle and into the can all the Gas, Carbon, Unburnt powder Etc now sneaks into the muzzle and back into the bore and even as far as the chamber. This happens every time you pull the trigger with the can on and is what is called back pressure. What it causes is a fouled bore, and a dirty chamber, as the chamber gets dirty the cases cant stick to the chamber walls and pressure rises causing ejection problems.

also because your dwelling the gas curve longer and sharper your rifle that normally runs great with the can off now over-gasses and is hard on brass and can overrun the bolt and cause malfunctions.

Corrections for this, Adjustable gas blocks. They help but they would require an adjustment every time you put the can on and that is time consuming and a waste of ammo.

Switch blocks. This makes it fast but can only be set correctly for one can and similar ammo. Change cans or go to ammo that is hotter and all bets are off. Also switch blocks can only fix the dwell time and the over gassing. The Back pressure still fouls the bore and chamber, just not as much.

Huge chambers will also fix these problems as the more room for dirt and carbon the less pressure and less problems, but now your loosing your accuracy, velocity and ruining your brass.

My opinion is if you have the need to suppress your rifle, IE for Silent Hunting, Varmint control. If your really an operator taking out sentrey's at night. Then buy all means a suppressor is for you and it will work well for those missions as long as the rifle starts out clean and the chamber is cleaned routinely.

If your not needing the suppressor and just thought it would be cool and neat , then read the above and keep your rifle clean and the chamber brush and mop handy, This is not a Stab either as I like cool shit too
smile.gif


Otherwise keep the cans on Bolt Guns, Pistols and Rim fires where they work well and flawlessly.


My opinion bash away if you feel it necessary.
smile.gif
 
#2
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

George: We have all pulled off a brake, compensator or can and seen carbon buildup on the muzzle. Does the back pressure and carbon build-up degrade accuracy over time or harm the crown?
 
#3
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

In your experience, how much does the heaviest buffer you can get help?

My precision AR never gets shot without a can, so Im fine with the adj gas block set correctly. Also it has a Wolf XP spring and 8.5oz buffer. It definitely still gets quite dirty, and blows carbon down into the magwell, but not near as bad as a gun without those pieces.

People do need to realize though that they need cleaned about 5 times if not more as often as a loud one.

Another thing to add, piston guns, as much as you want to believe it, do not help this issue. Like George said, the majority of the gas is coming down the bore anyway, not the gas tube.
 
#4
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I have suppressed mine. But only because I mainly use it for hunting. Yes it does get very dirty with rapid fire you can often get smoke in your eye from the ejection port.
If I used this rifle for things other than hunting more often I wouldn't bother with the suppressor even though they are real cheap here.
The reason they get so dirty is that the empty shell is being pulled back from the chamber before the smoke and gas has time to clear the barrel as much as it does with a bolt action so it in effect is drawn or sucked back down to the working parts through the barrel.
It turns everything grey including mags and any ammo left in them.
If mine was used mostly as a range gun I would have left the brake on it. Suppressors also don't minamise felt recoil anywhere near as well as a brake which can be a big deal if you are into competitions.

So Yep A10XRIFLE Id be with you on that one.
But if someone wanted one just cos I don't see a problem with them putting one on they do still work Over gassed.
 
#5
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

So your largest problems are:
1. Bolt and chamber area get dirtier.
2. Hard on brass.
3. Increased malfunctions.
Well hell by that logic we shouldn't even bother with semi's because a pre-64 win model 70 beats any semi in all three of those areas.
 
#6
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So your largest problems are:
1. Bolt and chamber area get dirtier.
2. Hard on brass.
3. Increased malfunctions.
Well hell by that logic we shouldn't even both with semi's because a pre-64 win model 70 beats any semi in all three of those areas.</div></div>

TANSTAAFL.

Is it worth the price? If yes, then suck up the costs, pay for them in cleaning and maintenance, and drive on.
 
#8
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">George: We have all pulled off a brake, compensator or can and seen carbon buildup on the muzzle. Does the back pressure and carbon build-up degrade accuracy over time or harm the crown? </div></div>

Not necessarily, but I have seen brakes with enough carbon build up that the bullet eventually was hitting the carbon causing the accuracy to fall. Cleaned this out it went back to normal. For my match rifle I have a Reamer that the same dimension of the hole through the brake I ream it out every 500 rounds or so to get rid of build up. I'm guessing that cans could do the same. so keeping them clean and dry would be important.
 
#9
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In your experience, how much does the heaviest buffer you can get help?

My precision AR never gets shot without a can, so Im fine with the adj gas block set correctly. Also it has a Wolf XP spring and 8.5oz buffer. It definitely still gets quite dirty, and blows carbon down into the magwell, but not near as bad as a gun without those pieces.

People do need to realize though that they need cleaned about 5 times if not more as often as a loud one.

Another thing to add, piston guns, as much as you want to believe it, do not help this issue. Like George said, the majority of the gas is coming down the bore anyway, not the gas tube.</div></div>



Heavy buffer theory is they delay the bolt opening and therefor cut down on blow back, So if you have a standard AR and go to a suppressor and its over gassing you can add the heavy buffer and spring and with the can it will run tamer. But pull the can off with those components it will run too lean. Lots of guys use those to tame rifles shooting heavy loads. That they work good for.
 
#10
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I have about 10,000 rounds of suppressed fire through several different .308s, 5.56s and 300 BLK. Not as much as some, but not an insignificant amount. Everything that George says is right on, but I still shoot almost all of of my rifles with the suppressor. The trade off of noise and recoil reduction may be worth it to some and not worth it to others.

The guns that handle the suppressors the best are guns that were designed to be suppressed. My REPR for example with the side charging handle, adjustable gas block, and piston is the easiest on brass and is a little cleaner than the gas impinged guns.

The other downside that George does not mention is that adding a can will turn an otherwise light, handy rifle in to a heavier, longer beast to carry and maneuver in tight quarters.

-Shaky
 
#11
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

The point of my Post is so that guys understand that owning a suppressed gas gun has a lot of user maintenance one needs to consider. When you put the suppressor on it you cannot just go out and pound 300 rounds down it without cleaning it. It just wont work. Could I build a loose chamber, heavy buffer, adj gas, piston driven dedicated suppressor AR, Yes would it still get filthy, Yes. But it would be nothing close to anything Precision!
 
#12
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Thanks for your comments and observations, George.

I run various semi-autos with and without suppressors and generally speaking, I agree with you that it isn't the most ideal situation in many respects, particularly terms of the fouling problems caused by running suppressed and the accompanying function issues that CAN be caused without proper maintenance before, during and after the fact...particularly with DI guns...and without at least attempting to address issues like overgassing, increased cyclic rate, etc., etc. There just isn't an "ideal" or even that much of a workable solution (adjustable gas, heavier buffers and/or springs, etc., etc.) that will fix the issue 100% or eliminate the risks of reliability (and ultimately...accuracy) being degraded when switching between suppressed and unsuppressed fire. Even with the piston systems I run (POF primarily), the problem with fouling/reliability is delayed to a certain extent and I have not witnessed any decreased brass life or wear/tear on components, but the guns still get dirty as hell after a while and require preventive maintenance to keep them running smoothly and without any @#$%-ups.

I guess it is worth it to some (or required by others) and the ends justify the means. I tend to fall into the "cool shit" factor area personally with the NEED for a suppressed semi-auto only about <5% of the time with the rest just being for shits and giggles!
wink.gif
 
#16
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Thanks for the information George. Just today I was in a local gun store and was wondering how a gas gun would react with a can. The guy there (an employee) just indicated that many folks suppress theirs but didn't know very much beyond that.

Your post is informative and timely for me.
 
#17
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I disagree with George.

Not because he might be wrong, but just that I haven't listened to him on any of my other gear choices first time around and don't see any reason to start now.

Plus, when you decide to go with what he said a year later--you can claim that you thought of it on your own.
 
#18
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KLin@GAP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I disagree with George.

Not because he might be wrong, but just that I haven't listened to him on any of my other gear choices first time around and don't see any reason to start now.

Plus, when you decide to go with what he said a year later--you can claim that you thought of it on your own. </div></div>

LMAO
 
#20
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ha Ha Kenny!

Guys this is not a bash on suppressors either in general I just want guys to know all the details before they choose to run one on a semi auto rifle. </div></div>

Gotten a lot of Phone Calls/ Emails/ and PMs on the subject lately?
 
#22
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I think g money is spot on.i have noticed an uncomfortable of back pressure when i have my can cornholed and fart with vigor, but have found if i keep the suitcased can clean and lubed it runs very efficiently
 
#23
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

After shooting my GAP-10 for the past year or so with my suppressor on, I've come to the same conclusion as George. While I really enjoy the sound and recoil reduction that the suppressor gives me, I've had a few reliability issues that are related to cleanliness of the system.

While I don't mind cleaning the rifle....I actually find it relaxing at times......I decided that this year I was going to try shooting it without the can and see what happens.

I also agree that without the can on, the rifle will be a lot lighter and 'handier' during competitions.
 
#25
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I have a switchblock on my DI gun and when used with my suppressor, it does reduce the overgassing a bit and allows me to fire more rounds before the gun invariably stops feeding.

So I generally agree with George. The best mode for shooting suppressed with my AR is gas off mode so the gas no longer cycles the bolt. Thus I'm left with a gun that works like a high capacity bolt action.

I'm glad George posted this. For quite a while, I was like wtf am I doing wrong?
 
#26
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I picked up a Colt CRP-18 about 6 months ago. They use a patented adjustable gas block like none other. It allow up to 8 micro adjustments per revolution allowing the user to fine tune for load and can. Combined with the H3 buffer and PRI Gas buster, my AR shoots nearly as clean as my non-suppressed setup. I have never regretted setting up this way and combined with using Slip-2000 cleanup is minimal. I'm not super anal about cleaning either but this gun just runs and runs and runs. Never had any issues with reliabilty or jacked up brass. I never shoot unsuppressed because then I would not be welcome to shoot with my buddies. Plus, I love when the RO gives me grief about having my can and wants to see paperwork. I love telling them to stick it up thier ass and keep shooting.
smile.gif
 
#28
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Wish I had known some of that stuff when I first started.

Found out the hard way and pissed away a couple hundred rounds but, was a good lesson learned.

I now clean after every shooting, meticulously and honestly, I tend to see a bit of a difference, not enough to really "matter" when I skip a couple cleanings.

I think the rule of thumb is just to give both the suppressor and your rifle a thorough cleaning after every couple shoots or so.
 
#29
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Agree completely and would add a few more:

1. Reflex designs in this application can insulate the most sensitive part of the barrel causing additional heat load and increase stringing.

2. Condensation from the can has been known to make it all the way into the gas system when the can is left on or environmentals (poor purge) get involved.

Current trends towards the shortest possible suppressor only exacerbates every problem George mentions. If suppression values are in any way competitive it is the result of higher than normal diverter and blast baffle design.

It is only a matter of time until the same considerations that drove suppressor design in the late 70s and early 80s return, and designers get on with the real work at hand, the return of the low pressure can. Slow fire gas operated cans get one design and high firing schedule FA cans get another, both much lower pressure than is seen now. We will all know it when we see staged designs return. One new design, essentially a reverse reflex has great promise. The primary is huge, independently running forward around the full exterior of the final armature stages, all the way to the end cap. Super low pressure, super low frequency, super thermal transfer. The remaining issue is managing the resulting mirage once heat saturation occurs. Fixing that will lead to new kinds of ablatives and new cooling breakthroughs. New materials, new machining and welding techniques, and computer modeling should provide some remarkable advancements, I am hopeful.

 
#31
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

For those that don't understand why suppressors would increase the back pressure and fouling so much; the suppressor still retains the majority of the gas when the bolt is starting to open, the opening bolt is a path of less resistance so the traped gas and fouling will flow back up the barrel into the chamber. If you have ever noticed the increased "poof" of gas in your face through the charging handle with a can, thats it.
 
#32
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Ya my 2 cents... I still dont like running a bolt unless I have to make that precision long range shot. If someone wants to put a can on their AR because they dont wanna listen to it I see no problem with it. Be aware of the downsides of doing so and clean your gun. Its just like anything else, people are gonna do it because they can and want to.
 
#34
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I use a SWR Omega 30 on my 308ar and I can gladly say I have had zero problems with reliability and accuracy. Yes the cases are dirty, but it hasn't caused any problems/malfunctions. You can over think things and come up with scientific reasons of why it shouldn't work, but what it comes down to is if your gun functions reliably, you can hit your intended target and do it consistently then nothing else really matters. I like using my suppressor and will continue to do so until I find an actual good reason to stop. Just my opinion.
 
#35
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

When my rifle gets all dirty and starts having malfunctions I just add more oil to it, and keep a bore snake to run thru maybe three times to keep the accuracy.

Just because she gets all dirty and starts pitching a fit doesn't mean I stop abusing her, just add more oil/lotion and keep going!!! Its all about me getting to finish anyways.

That is just field maintenance, as much as I hate cleaning, since running the suppressor I have cleaned much more often!
 
#36
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Or you could just learn how to strip your rifle and fucking clean it... that would be as pointless as avoiding the desert because I might get sand in my rifle. Maybe some of you guys are used to going from a concrete range and back to the safe, but many aren't. My shit gets used, abused and cleaned when necessary. Haven't had any problems yet.
 
#37
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Great, honest post. Especially for a guy who sells gas guns that can be set up for suppressors. I'll keep this info in mind if I ever decide to suppress the GAP-10 you guys built for me.
 
#38
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Thanks for the info George. I bought one of your rifles last year with the intent of running it suppressed all the time. Your guys let me know she would run fine with it, just dirty. She does and she is. I have not had one reliability issue with it. I just clean the shit out of the BCG, upper receiver, chamber, and snake it after each outing. It is an absolute pleasure to get behind. I find what you have said to be true and appreciate the information.
 
#42
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OSS - Modular Weapon Suppression System

I saw these guys at SHOT...seems that their suppressor addresses the issues of back pressure, fouling, etc. as well as some others not discussed.

I've not had any first hand experience with this product...but it might be worth a look.

Respectfully,

KJD </div></div>

Looks like a pretty interesting system.
 
#43
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I have a GAP 10 and run it suppressed regularly. At first I had a few issues with the system, but as I grow to learn the specifics of the rifle (handload and handling) I assure you that suppressing a semi can be done. When suppressed correctly as GAP sets their GAP 10s to handle it is actually very nice to shoot suppressed. And accurate!

The AR system will get dirty with time, especially with a DI system such as a GAP 10. I do not clean my rifle every time I shoot it. Why? Because if it can not run semi dirty than what is it worth? I may as well have a bolt.

I have been running an experiment on my GAP 10. I am currently shooting it without regular cleaning and waiting to see how long it takes to have issues with accuracy AND OR failure. Currently I am at 250 or so rounds and I have yet to have a major issue with the system.

George, My Gap 10 LOVES to run lean as you mentioned. I was having issues before with my handloads at the book measurements, however once I tweaked the load and leaned it out WOW it shoots great! Thank you for an excellent rifle that outshoots the bolt rifle next to me regularly!

Current load for other GAP 10 users.

18.5 GAP 10
41.0 Varget
2450 AVG velocity
2.810 OAL
175 SMK
CCI 200 LR Primer
 
#44
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I tend to agree mostly.

I have put about 600-800 rounds suppressed over the last year without cleaning. Just added lube. Cleaned the gun this week and it was VERY dirty. I have access to a solvent tank so I didn't really bother with cleaning till now.

My main gripe is the added weight and length makes it tough to carry around. But the reduction in DB is necessary. I have a chrome bolt and switchable gas block which helps a lot.

I did not see any reduction in accuracy, the gun shoots tiny groups no matter what.
 
#45
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

That sucks I ordered a GAP-10 specifically for a suppressor.
mad.gif
I guess I'll try it out and if its too big of a pain in the ass I'll leave it on the bolt gun.
 
#46
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Sounds like good logic to me George. BTW, am I the only one that actually likes the BOOM of sending a round down-range? I've spent a small fortune making my motorcycles louder...and then to spend another making my guns go 'pfffffff' would just be silly.
smile.gif
 
#47
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I have 1 YHM 7.62QD titanium. I use it on 5 different AR15's and my Bushmaster BAR10 .308 (older version of the RRA). I have put as many as 200 rds through the 308 without cleaning. I have always cleaned my guns after every range trip anyway and nothing has changed since getting a suppressor. Yes they are dirtier than they used to be, but so what? IMO the benefits of using a suppressor more than makes up for more frequent cleaning. I use heavy buffers in all my AR's except the 20" HBAR. A special one from Heavybuffers.com for the 308 and H2's in my 556 carbines. My one 556 20" uses the same buffer/spring it came with. And they all work fine with/without the suppressor. Just don't see a problem in my situation.....
 
#48
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

Good post. I wish I would have read it before I orderd the can for my FAR10.. Oh well now I have an excuse to build my bolt gun.. :) Until then I will just have to get some more cleaning juice and patches.
 
#49
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

It blows my mind anyone would consider not getting a suppressor because they are too lazy to do a little extra cleaning.... Cost, atf forms, legal risks, specialty parts are all decently justifiable reasons but cleaning..... Wtf, that's just stupid but to each their own I guess...
 
#50
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents

I have a GAP-10 in 6mm Creedmoor. I finally got my can last week and took it out yesterday. It cycled fine for the 40 rounds I shot. While on the one hand I can see wanting the rifle to cycle properly, on the other, I paid what I did for the GAP-10 for accuracy. I'm not a speed shooter. It was defintly more dirty, however with the can it was more accurate. I have always cleaned my rilfes after every session at the range. And yes I do have days where I shoot much more than 40. 50-100 are about average for me but 200 isn't uncommon. I did get a switchblock for my GAP, however I did run the can on a 20" AR15 as well. That rilfe ran fine for about 50 rnds as well. It was quite dirty when I got it home but it functioned fine. Not to mention my buddy shot a 3/8" group with it, which blew my mind for a gas gun.

For the folks that do this for a living, (military,swat,security,etc) I suppose this is an issue that would need to be looked into. Overpressure and high round count is likely a bad combo; and there are likely a host of other issue im not aware of as I am not an engineer/gunsmith.

However for the rest of us, If you clean the weapon regularly, I will bet it will run fine. I know mine do.

my 27 cents.
 
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