Surpressors, I need more surpressors.

[Smith1175]

Actually I am working my way through the podcasts and Mike touched on how to buy a suppressor. He dropped a bomb saying that buying one as an individual was now then preferred method instead of a trust. In an upcoming podcast could you guys explain this in a bit more detail? It has been about a year since I last looked into how to purchase one.

 

[j741]

I think that individual applications would only be preferred in terms of processing time. If you want to be able to share a suppressor with someone and not have to always be there when they're using it, you need a trust. If you want ease of passing it on if something should happen to you, you would probably want a trust. All the good reasons to have a trust are there, just up to you if they're worth it to you.

I was lucky I happened to buy the SilencerShop single shot trust unlimited option when I started out. Each can gets its own trust and makes it easy to add/remove trustees or even sell the trust (including the suppressor) if I wanted to.

 

[Smith1175]

I think that individual applications would only be preferred in terms of processing time. If you want to be able to share a suppressor with someone and not have to always be there when they're using it, you need a trust. If you want ease of passing it on if something should happen to you, you would probably want a trust. All the good reasons to have a trust are there, just up to you if they're worth it to you.

I was lucky I happened to buy the SilencerShop single shot trust unlimited option when I started out. Each can gets its own trust and makes it easy to add/remove trustees or even sell the trust (including the suppressor) if I wanted to.

What did that cost you if you don't mind me asking and is something like that still available?

 

[j741]

It’s $130. But it only applies to purchases with paperwork done through SilencerShop's submission system. My local SOT is a Powered By SilencerShop dealer, and they can run any suppressor through the SilencerShop paperwork & form 4 system, even suppressors not purchased through SilencerShop. SS charges the dealers $25 IIRC and my SOT just passes that charge on to me. Still cheaper than what it would cost around here to get 2 fingerprint cards done (factoring in cost of being away from work) and makes the paperwork dead simple.

https://www.silencershop.com/single-shot-unlimited-gun-trust.html

 

[Mag1c-Mik3]

Since 41p dropped (from what Ive seen) more people have bought suppressors as an individual. I sell suppressors on a daily basis. I could probably count on 1 hand how many trust applications Ive done in the last year plus.

The trust is a great way to secure the suppressor to pass it on after you pass on or if you want to share it with multiple people. When applying, the main people on the trust aka executors have to submit photos and finger print cards to the ATF via the FM4 and Questioner form. Being some people set up trusts with others from out of state and depending on how the trust is written most folks dont want to go through the hassle. Before 41p you could do a trust and list everyone including Al Capone and not have to secure photos and finger prints for each individual and also bypass the sign off of the CLEO.

Before 41p you used to have to ask permission from the CLEO to own a suppressor when filing as an individual. Now you dont. You go in, fill out the form as an individual, get your photos and fingers done, pay for the Can and wait. Pretty simple now days as an Individual.

This is the condensed version. Thats all I was saying.

 

[Smith1175]

Sweet man, thank you for the quick run down. I was somewhat up to date with the process of buying a suppressor about a year ago, but did not go through with it because after building my rifle my gun fund looked like a pheasant that just came out of the back end of a combine. Now that my funds are back up it looks like I have some home work to do. Also just wanted to say keep up the good work with the podcast!

 

[goosed]

The trust is a great way to secure the suppressor to pass it on after you pass on

As an individual there is a federal provision already on the books regarding for the allowance of your direct heirs to take possession of any NFA items. Both short term and long term.

Having a trust only becomes important if you want NFA items to go to someone other than a direct heir after death or if your area has something specific on the books (highly unlikely). Otherwise the only real benefit, imo, that remains for a trust is being able to allow others to take possession (use or transport) without you being present.

 

[j741]

I can see the pains on having a single NFA trust with multiple people on it and needing to get photos & prints for each additional suppressor. My first two cans were both on the same trust and were submitted only in my name. When my first can came and and my second was delayed for a few months I was unable to share the can with my sister since I couldn't add her to the trust while the 2nd can was still in it's application stage. That was one reason I was glad I had lucked in to getting the single shot trusts and have 1 trust for each can. Sure, it's more paperwork to add people, but it's also much more specific. Anyone could do the same thing by just creating a new NFA trust for each purchase, or convincing the place you purchased it from to allow you to copy it with name chances for a small fee.

 

[j741]

As an individual there is a federal provision already on the books regarding for the allowance of your direct heirs to take possession of any NFA items. Both short term and long term.

Having a trust only becomes important if you want NFA items to go to someone other than a direct heir after death or if your area has something specific on the books (highly unlikely). Otherwise the only real benefit, imo, that remains for a trust is being able to allow others to take possession (use or transport) without you being present.

You can also add responsible persons to a trust after the can is approved and not need the hassle for them of prints & photos.

 

[goosed]

You can also add responsible persons to a trust after the can is approved and not need the hassle for them of prints & photos.

Well.. yes, technically... You could do a one time edit to a trust. When dealing with a single trust and making just one edit, it would be very difficult to prove you had intent to add a person(s) the entire time.

If you have a history of multiple trusts that are edited after being approved it could very well be considered that you had premeditated intent to willfully circumvent trust law. The same would easily apply to a single trust that has individuals removed right before an item is added and then those individuals are suddenly re-added once items are approved.

However unlikely it might be to actually get caught there is still some risk involved. To each their own as far as risk tolerance, but I personally don't feel the risk is worth the reward for myself or as a recommendation to others.

 

[rockmyglock]

Well.. yes, technically... You could do a one time edit to a trust. When dealing with a single trust and making just one edit, it would be very difficult to prove you had intent to add a person(s) the entire time.

If you have a history of multiple trusts that are edited after being approved it could very well be considered that you had premeditated intent to willfully circumvent trust law. The same would easily apply to a single trust that has individuals removed right before an item is added and then those individuals are suddenly re-added once items are approved.

However unlikely it might be to actually get caught there is still some risk involved. To each their own as far as risk tolerance, but I personally don't feel the risk is worth the reward for myself or as a recommendation to others.

Technically.... you can edit a revocable trust as many times as you want, at your desire and leisure. That's not "willfully circumventing trust law with premeditated intent", that's trust law being trust law.

 

[goosed]

Technically.... you can edit a revocable trust as many times as you want, at your desire and leisure. That's not "willfully circumventing trust law with premeditated intent", that's trust law being trust law.

Sure, the idea behind a revocable trust is it can be edited or terminated at any time...

However, things are a bit more complicated in regards to NFA items than with traditional assets. Specifically as the rules and regulations pertaining to NFA items take precedence over normal trust proceedings. Some are obvious such as a revocable trust can NOT be legally terminated at "any time" if it is still in possession of NFA items as these items can't legally exist without being assigned to an entity. Others enter a less black and white arena such as when and how often a trust can be edited.

We can argue and/or discuss our interpretations till we're blue in the face, but that doesn't make any of them factual. Hence, my use of words like "could be" and "unlikely" rather certain terms such as "will" or "can". Until we have a formal ruling from the supreme court there can be no certainty. Thus... as I suggested earlier it's a matter of proceeding at your risk tolerance level.

 

[rockmyglock]

Sure, the idea behind a revocable trust is it can be edited or terminated at any time...

However, things are a bit more complicated in regards to NFA items than with traditional assets. Specifically as the rules and regulations pertaining to NFA items take precedence over normal trust proceedings. Some are obvious such as a revocable trust can NOT be legally terminated at "any time" if it is still in possession of NFA items as these items can't legally exist without being assigned to an entity. Others enter a less black and white arena such as when and how often a trust can be edited.

We can argue and/or discuss our interpretations till we're blue in the face, but that doesn't make any of them factual. Hence, my use of words like "could be" and "unlikely" rather certain terms such as "will" or "can". Until we have a formal ruling from the supreme court there can be no certainty. Thus... as I suggested earlier it's a matter of proceeding at your risk tolerance level.

The only less black and white arena that governs how often you edit your trust is in your own head. You have created the Baba Yaga that is going to crack down on this one. There is no rule that states how often and to what extent you can modify the terms of your trust. This includes the naming and removal of trustees.

The only "risk" that I have seen presented is the one you presented based off your own hypothetical. There is nothing up for interpretation, because there is no foundation for your argument.

 

[goosed]

The only less black and white arena that governs how often you edit your trust is in your own head. You have created the Baba Yaga that is going to crack down on this one. There is no rule that states how often and to what extent you can modify the terms of your trust. This includes the naming and removal of trustees.

The only "risk" that I have seen presented is the one you presented based off your own hypothetical. There is nothing up for interpretation, because there is no foundation for your argument.

To be so certain you're correct, you must have submitted a trust with multiple amendments to the ATF with your NFA paperwork and had it approved?

Specifically the type of amendments that you suggest are completely legal with the removal of trustees right before submitting to the ATF and adding them back right after approval?

 

[j741]

To be so certain you're correct, you must have submitted a trust with multiple amendments to the ATF with your NFA paperwork and had it approved?

Specifically the type of amendments that you suggest are completely legal with the removal of trustees right before submitting to the ATF and adding them back right after approval?

To be clear, the approach I was describing was with a single trust per suppressor - applied for in one name and after approval adding others. The removal of trustees and re-adding later I understand to also be legal, but I've not considered it as I prefer the specificity of one trust per suppressor.

 

[rockmyglock]

To be so certain you're correct, you must have submitted a trust with multiple amendments to the ATF with your NFA paperwork and had it approved?

Specifically the type of amendments that you suggest are completely legal with the removal of trustees right before submitting to the ATF and adding them back right after approval?

You're the one that came in saying that certain actions were suspect using big words like "premeditated intent", "willfully circumvent trust law". Who cares if you have the intent to add trustees after a stamp comes back? That's not fraud. Adding and removing of trustees is a normal and legitimate business transaction. There is nothing to circumvent. With a revocable trust, you are not limited to making a "one time edit to a trust". It's a revocable trust, it is designed to be modified and changed.

You should not represent that any of this conduct as being illegal or gray area or done in the shadows. You should not be representing things as fine lines that need to be walked. They aren't. These things are pretty straight forward and we are all better served by being educated on how they work. New people asking for advice should be encouraged rather than discouraged.

 

[goosed]

You're the one that came in saying that certain actions were suspect using big words like "premeditated intent", "willfully circumvent trust law". Who cares if you have the intent to add trustees after a stamp comes back? That's not fraud. Adding and removing of trustees is a normal and legitimate business transaction. There is nothing to circumvent. With a revocable trust, you are not limited to making a "one time edit to a trust". It's a revocable trust, it is designed to be modified and changed.

You should not represent that any of this conduct as being illegal or gray area or done in the shadows. You should not be representing things as fine lines that need to be walked. They aren't. These things are pretty straight forward and we are all better served by being educated on how they work. New people asking for advice should be encouraged rather than discouraged.

Yes, revocable trust was originally designed (long before NFA items were ever placed in them) to allow for amendments. They were also designed to avoid probate. 41P created specific rules after death so general probate doesn't apply. To this we can agree.

Where we don't agree is how and why the ability to do amendments change when NFA items are involved in a revocable trust. I maintain that attempts to avoid complying with the ATF requirement to have "all responsible persons" submit finger prints and pictures aren't prudent. You will continue to argue that I'm uneducated, don't understand trusts and in general making shit up.

I have no doubt I won't change you're mind and you aren't changing mine. Guess we should just agree to disagree...

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

even sell the trust (including the suppressor) if I wanted to.

Interesting, how do you sell a trust? My understanding is the trust is tied to the Grantor until his/her's death at which point it becomes non-revocable and the process to transfer the assets of the trust to the trust's beneficiary(s) starts.

 

[j741]

Interesting, how do you sell a trust? My understanding is the trust is tied to the Grantor until his/her's death at which point it becomes non-revocable and the process to transfer the assets of the trust to the trust's beneficiary(s) starts.

TBH, I hadn't looked in to it too much as I didn't ever think I'd use it. But what I had read is that you add the 'buyer' as a trustee with the right to modify or revoke the trust, and then remove all others including the original purchaser.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Yea, discussions with my lawyer for the "continuance of the trust with another individual" basically ended with him saying that is the purpose of the grantor being tied to the trust for the very reason of the trust not being able to transferred to others ad infinitum to prevent this exact situation of attempting to sell or give the trust away. A grantor can also be a trustee, but not vice versa. I am not a lawyer and that conversation was a few years ago and your state's laws may vary. I'm just of the school of thought that there is no free lunch with NFA items, if it transfers it requires another stamp.

To the OP's question, my last can was individual as going with the trust lost all incentive with letter 41F being passed. I don't loan NFA items to others , local CLEO signoff is no longer required, and inheritance path is clarified. Going with the trust would have been a lot more paperwork/legwork for me and they are taking longer to approve than the individual route at this time.