Night Vision T-60 Flir

[Augustus]

Just got the T-60. This is for real, I have been playing with it and the resolution is unbelievable. I shot a few rds last night at inanimate targets just to get a feel for it and to see if it affected POI of the day scope. The 1x setting was dead on and the .5 setting was about 1/2 mil high at 100 yds. The resolution is much better when set on .5 so I think I will zero at that setting. There is a downside to doing this, the device is set so that .mil- dots are compatible at the 1x setting. When set at .5 you have to cut the holdover in half.

Anyway I am very happy with it so far and Onechance was very nice to deal with.

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

Have you been able to compare it with the T50?

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

No, I haven't had access to the T 50. The T 50 detector is 320x240 while the T60 is 640x480. Last night the temp was around 30 degrees with very low humidity, I could not believe the visibility and detail I could see with this device. It looked very much like viewing one of the old black and white movies.

I shot a 3 inch disk at 100 yds with no trouble at all. I will shoot at longer ranges in the next few days.

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

Oops, I double clutched the post, SORRY

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

Are you using the T60 as a stand alone or in front of your day optic?

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

The T 60 has no internal reticle so it has to be used in front of a day optic.

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

There is no stand alone reticules in the T-60.

What optics and mount are you using yours with? An ACOG works perfect.

The T-50 works just as good as the T-60 does and has allot more adaptability since you can adjust the display to five different intensity levels to suit your situation. The only thing the T-60 beats the T-50 in is the ability to use external scope magnification over 4X, but even then it gets pixelated over 6X or so...

Use non-recharageable Energizer C123 batteries, they last the longest as they are 1550mAh compared to all others 1200mAh and below....

Pics or it did not happen!

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

I've put an Acog, US Optics 3-17, Aimpoint, Lupy 1-5 and a Horus 4-16 in front of it. I was just playing with it to see if it preferred one over the other. it seems to work with any day optic. The Lupy 1-5 would be my pick if it had target knobs on it.

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

Skypup,

Do you still have your T60? If so, do you use it?

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skypup,

Do you still have your T60? If so, do you use it? </div></div>

Yes, Yes!

I have three different rifle-scope combinations that I use for different night hunting conditions depending on what and where I am headed.

Due to the greater adaptability of the T-50, I use it the majority of the time, but for being on a stand in a place I am familiar with, the T-60 is GTG.

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just got the T-60. This is for real, I have been playing with it and the resolution is unbelievable. I shot a few rds last night at inanimate targets just to get a feel for it and to see if it affected POI of the day scope. The 1x setting was dead on and the .5 setting was about 1/2 mil high at 100 yds. The resolution is much better when set on .5 so I think I will zero at that setting. There is a downside to doing this, the device is set so that .mil- dots are compatible at the 1x setting. When set at .5 you have to cut the holdover in half.

Anyway I am very happy with it so far and Onechance was very nice to deal with. </div></div>

You don't want to zero at 1/2 power. Because of the fine (small) pixel size, the 640x480 OLED has to be doubled to achieve unity for use with day scopes.

The intent of the design is for you to zero at 1x (on the T60).

The 1/2 power setting gives higher resolution but also wider field of view (FOV) at 14 degrees (versus 7 degrees at the 1x setting). The idea is to use the 1/2 power mode for observation (i.e. to give maximum 'situational awareness'), and when you're ready to take your shot, just snap the selector over to 1x mode.

The price that OnceChance was selling for (around $12,500) is a great value as the DVR and all the accessory cables you need to hook your T60 to just about any video record / playback device is included in the price.

LEOs can still get them on direct sales for $10,500, but have to move fast. FLIR is planning to discontinue this model and has slashed pricing to move them as NOS.

All you civvies that have picked one up, might want to be careful about your public postings as the ones I know you have are the government models with the restricted Class III IR laser pointers built in.

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The only thing the T-60 beats the T-50 in is the ability to use external scope magnification over 4X, but even then it gets pixelated over 6X or so...
</div></div>

I like the side placement of the focus adjustment [knob] on the T60 better ... especially if you're shooting long rifle in the prone position. It is just the right distance for the shooter to reach out with his/her "weak" hand to tune focus while simultaneously eyeballing through the scope.

Also, once you understand how the auto-gain and auto-contrast on the T60 work, it is better (in my opinion) than putzing around with a bunch of buttons when one needs to give maximum attention to giving focus on the target.

Most of the tactical teams we build fly away packages for prefer the more simple and fewer controls when out in the field. If something is turning up to be a frequent problem in certain, special environments, then we modify the firmware.

Our customers that field the equipment report that even if they have multiple settings and controls, their preference is to "set and forget". I've seen field guys with access to firmware get into the hall mode settings, % aperture settings, and display orientation test modes and really screw up their responsiveness. It is interesting when you get a cell phone call for the field guys in their "heat of the moment" situations, for help to get back to default mode. They'll tell you after how grateful they were just to get the original, default, factory settings back minus all the tweaks.

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just got the T-60. This is for real, I have been playing with it and the resolution is unbelievable. I shot a few rds last night at inanimate targets just to get a feel for it and to see if it affected POI of the day scope. The 1x setting was dead on and the .5 setting was about 1/2 mil high at 100 yds. The resolution is much better when set on .5 so I think I will zero at that setting. There is a downside to doing this, the device is set so that .mil- dots are compatible at the 1x setting. When set at .5 you have to cut the holdover in half.

Anyway I am very happy with it so far and Onechance was very nice to deal with. </div></div>

You don't want to zero at 1/2 power. Because of the fine (small) pixel size, the 640x480 OLED has to be doubled to achieve unity for use with day scopes.

The intent of the design is for you to zero at 1x (on the T60).

The 1/2 power setting gives higher resolution but also wider field of view (FOV) at 14 degrees (versus 7 degrees at the 1x setting). The idea is to use the 1/2 power mode for observation (i.e. to give maximum 'situational awareness'), and when you're ready to take your shot, just snap the selector over to 1x mode.

The price that OnceChance was selling for (around $12,500) is a great value as the DVR and all the accessory cables you need to hook your T60 to just about any video record / playback device is included in the price.

LEOs can still get them on direct sales for $10,500, but have to move fast. FLIR is planning to discontinue this model and has slashed pricing to move them as NOS.

All you civvies that have picked one up, might want to be careful about your public postings as the ones I know you have are the government models with the restricted Class III IR laser pointers built in.

IR-V </div></div>

+1 on that IR-V, you certainly know this well.

Zero and shoot only on 1X setting or you will be coming home after missing quite a bit....

As far as the Class IIIB laser goes, stick a nail into the lens of it to permanently disable it, it is not good for anything anyhow except as a general pointer, you don't need it at all...

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

For my hog and coyote hunting purposes, I like the T-50 better than the T-60 most of the time. I like to be able to manually adjust the display setting levels and use the 2X and 4X internal magnification for zooming in. The batteries last much longer on the T-50 also.

It really is just a matter of personal preference, they both do an outstanding job of picking up obscure coyotes and hogs in difficult terrain ranging from thick swamps, overgrown upland hardwood hammocks, to open prairie.

Using NV only I often end up stepping right into a sounder of hogs unknown to me until all the rampaging squealing starts, using the thermals generally prevents that from occurring.

Using an PVS-14 helmet mount with IR laser works the best when walking around to and from our stands for quick instant kills, but once I am setup on a stand the FLIR Thermals come into play in a big way, picking up muck more game than I would ever see with just the NVO.

I am almost never shooting past 225 yards and 95% of my kills are less than 100 yards, both of the FLIR Thermals are simply outstanding for this purpose, hardly anything is missed on the first shot and virtually nothing is getting away if a second shot is ever needed, they can run but they cannot hide!

As a rule, I am not at blasting at everything I see, I take my time and make the first shot count, many times not even taking a shot if the proper presentment for a lethal single shot is not available.

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you using the T60 as a stand alone or in front of your day optic? </div></div>

Though the T60 was developed as a partnership between FLIR and Trijicon as the Advanced Thermal Weapons Scope (ATWS), and is specifically collimated for use with the Trijicon ACOG 4x32 scopes, you can use the T60 with other day scopes.

An interesting sidebar: the Trijicon relationship can be confirmed by pulling off the corrugated rubber disk that is glued with rubber cement to the objective lens cover. When it comes off, you'll see Trijicon's logo molded into the cover. LOL

Back to the topic about T60 use with day scopes:
Here's an interesting tip. Because of the 640x480 aspect ratio, the T60 OLED is 9.33 degrees wide x 7 degrees vertical. The Trijicon ACOG 4x32 scopes have a 7 degree FOV. That means that some amount of the FOV is lost on the horizontal. If you have a day scope with FOV wider than 7 degrees at any setting, you can recover that extra, horizontal FOV. Of course, that will give you more of a letter box format, where there are black bands at the top and bottom of the image you see, but as you increase the magnification (assuming your scope is variable power) to where the FOV is 7 degrees or less, the letterbox will go away and you'll have the full, edge-to-edge "round" view.

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

The laser on the T60s we have can be adjusted for horizontal alignment, but not vertical. It is intended so that team members beside the shooter (such as a spotter or decisionmaker (e.g. squad commander) and who are wearing NVGs can see generally where and what the shooter is observing. It is definitely not intended as a laser aiming device.

The high power mode (30 mW) on the laser is to help overcome washout from nearby light sources when designating in urban environments.

A slight annoyance of the T60 laser module is that is prevents the bottom of the objective lens cap from fully seating. For our guys that use the T60 in desert environments with lots of fine, blowing sand constantly blowing everywhere, we mill out the gap between the objective housing and the laser housing(modifying the laser housing, of course) to allow for a more secure fit on the lens cap.

I would advise the civvies with the Class 3 laser to just keep the laser lens cover on, keep the blue locking bolt / screw in place, and not have yourself or your gear photographed with the tape switch in place. If the tape switch is not connected, the laser will not turn on.

Putting super glue or epoxy on the blue locking bolt / screw to prevent it from being easily removed, is sufficient CYB if the tape switch is also kept off the unit at the "moment of inspection".

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

There was no external adjustment on the laser on mine, and as you mentioned, I took a razor-blade to the bottom of the lens cap cover to trim it up to insure a proper snug fit.

Don't get me wrong, I love my FLIR T-60, the fact that it is a clip-on makes it highly coveted among my hunting buddies.

"What, your not using the T-60 tonight? Then let me put it on my rail!"

Same story with the FLIR PS-32, which is why I am on the lookout for a good deal on a LS-64 for me, then they can quit asking me to use the PS-32 all the time...

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Use non-recharageable Energizer C123 batteries, they last the longest as they are 1550mAh compared to all others 1200mAh and below....
</div></div>

We use the Surefire CR123s -- much cheaper than the Energizers (which are damn good batteries by the way) -- and they give very, very long life in the T60.

Here's a neat trick. If your T60 is going to be used in a fixed position arrangement / scenario, you can use the video out interface (which has power in combined) with the Y-adapter cable and use the cigarette lighter option with an outboard battery -- the portable one sold at Autozone, for example, for people to keep around to jump start dead car batteries. Those auxilliary batteries can be had for $60 - $90 and will run your T60 for over a week of continuous use.

I recommend this approach to our guys using the T60 in fixed position, surveillance applications. It prevents the need to have long extension cords, and keeps the T60 off of facilities power that can be prone to surges, outages, and spikes. The spikes in AC power will shorten the life of sensitive equipment like the T60.

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was no external adjustment on the laser on mine, and as you mentioned, I took a razor-blade to the bottom of the lens cap cover to trim it up to insure a proper snug fit.

Don't get me wrong, I love my FLIR T-60, the fact that it is a clip-on makes it highly coveted among my hunting buddies.

"What, your not using the T-60 tonight? Then let me put it on my rail!"

Same story with the FLIR PS-32, which is why I am on the lookout for a good deal on a LS-64 for me, then they can quit asking me to use the PS-32 all the time...

</div></div>

I completely understand your preferences, Sky-Pup. There's no need to play favorites, when you can have them all.

The T50 is a bit more compact and less greedy on rail space, and is a great choice for use on lightweight rifles in dynamic use where the shooting will take place at 250 yards or less.

A really neat way to "share" your T60 with your buddies is to hook up one of those portable, PICO laser projectors (the ones no bigger than an iPhone) and project the image onto the side of a building, tall bank of trees, or out over a wide field or clearing (if up in a tree stand for example). The output is too weak to see beyond maybe 20 feet with unaided vision, but if you view with NVD, man, it is a very cool, movie theater anywhere experience. Of course, you'll spook your game if you point the projector out at them, but these PICOs typically self-adjust and you can just shine straight down on the ground (at your feet) or on the side of a tree (just a a foot or two away) for a smaller "view anywhere" image.

For more covert use, I've had my engineering teams replace the RGB lasers in the PICO projectors with IR ones. Brings a whole new twist to "combat theater". This stuff is more clowning around than anything truly useful for tactical operations. Sometimes you just want to have a little "social media" type fun with the technology exploration. LOL

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

My buddy has an I-Pad and I've been thinking of hooking up the video output to that device so everybody can see what I am looking at and record the video at the same time.

Currently I am using a small portable DVR recorder that has about a three inch LCD that broadcasts live video as it is recording.

Video taping the hunts is always a pain with keeping all the equipment charged up, so I only use it for special times, would be nice though to have a small compact setup that would record every-time I turned the scope on.

As a rule, to save battery life, I only have them on to shoot with, I generally do not use them for scanning detection purposes as the PS-32 is fine for that use. The fact that they turn on so fast and the Vanadium Oxide microbolometer is up and running in a heartbeat is a BIG PLUS on these units, they are ready to use in under five seconds!

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My buddy has an I-Pad and I've been thinking of hooking up the video output to that device so everybody can see what I am looking at and record the video at the same time.

Currently I am using a small portable DVR recorder that has about a three inch LCD that broadcasts live video as it is recording.

Video taping the hunts is always a pain with keeping all the equipment charged up, so I only use it for special times, would be nice though to have a small compact setup that would record every-time I turned the scope on.

As a rule, to save battery life, I only have them on to shoot with, I generally do not use them for scanning detection purposes as the PS-32 is fine for that use. The fact that they turn on so fast and the Vanadium Oxide microbolometer is up and running in a heartbeat is a BIG PLUS on these units, they are ready to use in under five seconds! </div></div>

We do something similar [with wireless broadcast of video out]. The multi-cast is then received as a PIP type overlay for other members of the team equipped with SENVG.

For observation, most of our field clients who can afford dual-band fusion are moving to that technology. The SENVG is one example.

VOX is generally king, but there are some sensor technologies built around A-Si cores that we've found that give faster (as in 'instant') start-up, and better performance under extreme conditions such as sub-freezing temperatures with 50+ mph wind. Even the awesome FLIR VOX sensors in the T50 and T60 get slaughtered on detection performance in conditions like those. That's when the dual-band is particularly useful, either with alternate i^2 or sensing from alternate thermal cores.

More later, I'm off to a Christmas party. BTW: in my previous post, when I wrote "when you can have them all, there's no need to play favorites", I was referring to our (<span style="font-weight: bold">yours</span> and my) situation of having both the T50 and T60 among an array of other technologies.

IR-V

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

I have a Valley Creek Belt light I use on operations at night when running the hounds. The one I have is 18 volts but they make a 12 volt model. The battery is only 3x3x1/2 and weighs less than one lb. It comes with a belt and charger.

This should work for a power source for the T-50 or T-60. These packs are very durable, Mine has seen continuos use since 2004. The switch may have to be changed because it is reostat, I doubt you would want to power up the devices at anything but full power.

Also I am curious, I shot the T-60 zeroed At both settings, both setting seemed to be equally effective as long as you don't shoot .5 with the 1x zero
or vice- versa.

If the rifle is zeroed on 1x and shot at .5 the Rd will strike about 1.5 mils high. So far I have had good results zeroed on either setting as long as you use the setting it's zeroed for. I only shot at 100 yds, I intend to do more extensive testing today at varied distances to see if any problems occur with the .5 zero.

Yea, Yea, I know I'm a hard headed hillbilly. I won't listen to anybody, I have to see for myself.

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

[/quote]LEOs can still get them on direct sales for $10,500, but have to move fast. FLIR is planning to discontinue this model and has slashed pricing to move them as NOS.[/quote]

Does that mean the T50 and T60 will soon be obsolete? What will FLIR replace it with. I have a 50 and am considering a 60.

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]LEOs can still get them on direct sales for $10,500, but have to move fast. FLIR is planning to discontinue this model and has slashed pricing to move them as NOS.</div></div>

Does that mean the T50 and T60 will soon be obsolete? What will FLIR replace it with. I have a 50 and am considering a 60. [/quote]

Supposedly the current military issue T-70 and T-75 as they upgrade from those and discontinue them for military use.

http://gs.flir.com/surveillance-products/thermosight/thermosight-t70-t75

http://gs.flir.com/uploads/file/products/brochures/thermosight_t70_t75_a4.pdf

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

A good trick for both the T-50 and T-60 FLIR Thermals, if you use a helmet mounted PVS-14, is to equip your FLIR Thermal with a Truijicon RMR LED RM-01 or RM-06 with the smaller 3.25 MOA dot.

Both the T-50 and T-60 have an integral RMR mount built into the top of the scope themselves.

If you install a 720nm IR cut-off filter into the objective lens of your PVS-14, you can use the RMR red dot with your NV and be totally invisible still, it looks just like you are looking at an IR laser.....works real good for those fast CQB shots on hogs close up!

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div>LEOs can still get them on direct sales for $10,500, but have to move fast. FLIR is planning to discontinue this model and has slashed pricing to move them as NOS.</div></div>

Does that mean the T50 and T60 will soon be obsolete? What will FLIR replace it with. I have a 50 and am considering a 60. [/quote]

Supposedly the current military issue T-70 and T-75 as they upgrade from those and discontinue them for military use.

http://gs.flir.com/surveillance-products/thermosight/thermosight-t70-t75

http://gs.flir.com/uploads/file/products/brochures/thermosight_t70_t75_a4.pdf [/quote]

How much are they? Can a joe blow like me buy one?

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

Not yet, but maybe next year....

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

Ok, here is the skinny about zeroing on .5 and 1x. To make a long story short, the system works fine either way as long as you understand what is going on. If you zero on .5 the advantage is much better resolution and a wider field of view that comes in handy when trying to keep up with a bunch of running hogs. The rifle grouped nice out to 300 yds zeroed on .5

If you are using a holdover reticle you will need to use half of your usual holdover if you are zeroed on .5 also if you want to switch to 1x you will need to use 1 mil of holdover.

For the distances I have shot so far I am liking the .5 zero. I am using a Horus reticle and as long as I use half the usual holdover everything works fine. On this setting you can still crank up the power.

After I had all this figured out I set up a 4inch steel disk at 300 yds. I heated it with a propane torch and proceeded to shoot at it. The rifle was a 6.5 Grendel shooting 100 gr ballistic tips at 2650. The rifle was zeroed at 100 yds on the .5 setting. The come- up according to Atrag was 1.4 mils. I halved that to .7 and got a strike on the plate just a shade above center. I then switched to 1x setting and fired using the 1 mil mark as zero then added the 1.4 mils called for by Atrag. the Rd struck the plate about 1inch left of the first Rd.

I then proceeded to fire at the plate alternating form .5 to 1x. using the approbate holdover each time. All ten rds hit the plate.

The moral of the story is you can zero on either setting but you need to under keep a few things in mind.

Also, I did not shoot past 300 yds so this info has only been verified up to that distance. Also the 100 yd groups seemed to be a little better on 1x but all of them were sub Moa.

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

Thanks for the research on this, that is good information to know.

I always scan around only on 0.5X and have only shot @ 1.0X using my 4X ACOG or Leopold Hog 1-4X scope or my Eotech with 3X Magnifier, it shoots fantastic out to the max lethal range of my 5.56mm which is 225 yards with Barnes TSX 70 grain handloads, have not shot any further than that.

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

You are welcome, I would advise anyone thinking of using the .5 zero to check everything out for themselves, don't take my word for it. You really need to practice with it both ways to understand it.

 

[Nukes]

Re: T-60 Flir

Thanks IR-V. Always edifying.

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, here is the skinny about zeroing on .5 and 1x. To make a long story short, the system works fine either way as long as you understand what is going on ...

<span style="font-weight: bold">If you are using a holdover reticle you will need to use half of your usual holdover if you are zeroed on .5 also if you want to switch to 1x you will need to use 1 mil of holdover.</span></div></div>

That's not what I've experienced with the T60. There are both horizontal and vertical offsets in point of aim (POA) between the .5x and 1x views.

<span style="font-weight: bold">From our measurements on several T60 scopes in the 810002xx serial number range, the .5x POA is 2.5 milliradians lower and 1.3 milliradians to the left of the actual POA. I'm specifying the offset in milliradians as it is proportionally consistent at all the distances to target that we've tested, from 10 meters to 800 meters.</span>

BTW: On these same rifles, the 1x POA exactly matched the POA of the day scope (Zeiss / Hensoldt) without the T60, meaning there was no collimation error to account for between the dayscope and T60.

Screwing around with 2.5 mil vertical holdover and 1.3 mil horizontal holdover on .5x as the view used for aiming, especially if your dayscope has the reticule in the 2nd focal plane and is at a power setting other than unity, is asking for a LOT of misses (shots impacting way off target) in the field.

Best to stick to FLIR's intent and advice for the T60: contextual viewing at .5x, and aiming at 1x.

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nukes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks IR-V. Always edifying. </div></div>

Welcome, Nukes. Always glad to help.

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

On my FLIR T-50, using it at 1X power in front of my 4X ACOG TA02, I took a cardboard box and filled the box up with air from a hair dryer and closed it up.

I pasted this target onto the side of the box at night @ 175 yards from my hunting stand.

Using my handloaded Barnes 70 grain TSX bullets, I fired this group from my SIG 556 16" barrel with 1:7" twist.

I could NOT see this specific target, however I could easily see the side of the cardboard box, the target was centered on the side of the box and I just aimed for the center of the hot box through the T-50.

I am totally confident of my ability to take a lethal shot on any hog or coyote out to 225 yards:

I have not tried this with the T-60, but if anything, I have noticed zero POI shift with that instrument with many one shot kills under its belt!

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

IR-V, thanks for your input. I am not seeing the figures you have mentioned in actual field tests. I am seeing no horizontal difference and only 1 mil vertical.

The figures I am seeing may be unique to this particular set-up. Anyway test it folks and use what works best for you. This is not rocket science, put the rifle on a stable rest and identify a particular aiming point. Switch back and forth between the .5 and 1x setting. It will be obvious what the off-set is, if you have a horus or similar reticle you can actually watch the off-set occur and identify the exact value.

One might ask why bother with the .5 setting? For me the reasons are:
Resolution is much better
Running game is much easier to track due to the wider FOV
Since I am am using a Horus First Focal Plane Scope and the .5 setting only requires half the holdover as the 1x setting I can get out twice as far using the reticle for holdover. This comes in handy when shooting a sub sonic 300 SMK. I can get out to 400 yds with only 6.65 mils of holdover. This allows me to stay up in the center portion of the scope.

Stay tuned if there are any anomalies develop at longer distances I will report on it. I am not married to using the .5 method if problems develop I will be the first to admit it.

Also if zeroed at the .5 setting using a First Focal Plane variable scope there is no need to ever visit the 1x setting. The off-set is therefore a mute point.

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IR-V, thanks for your input. I am not seeing the figures you have mentioned in actual field tests. I am seeing no horizontal difference and only 1 mil vertical.

The figures I am seeing may be unique to this particular set-up. Anyway test it folks and use what works best for you. This is not rocket science, put the rifle on a stable rest and identify a particular aiming point. Switch back and forth between the .5 and 1x setting. It will be obvious what the off-set is, if you have a horus or similar reticle you can actually watch the off-set occur and identify the exact value.

One might ask why bother with the .5 setting? For me the reasons are:
Resolution is much better
Running game is much easier to track due to the wider FOV
Since I am am using a Horus First Focal Plane Scope and the .5 setting only requires half the holdover as the 1x setting I can get out twice as far using the reticle for holdover. This comes in handy when shooting a sub sonic 300 SMK. I can get out to 400 yds with only 6.65 mils of holdover. This allows me to stay up in the center portion of the scope.

Stay tuned if there are any anomalies develop at longer distances I will report on it. I am not married to using the .5 method if problems develop I will be the first to admit it.

Also if zeroed at the .5 setting using a First Focal Plane variable scope there is no need to ever visit the 1x setting. The off-set is therefore a mute point.
</div></div>

You're welcome, Augustus - and thank you for your field and test data also. We measured the offsets (between .5x and 1x) on several rifles, and they were extremely consistent. From the way the OLED zoom from .5x to 1x is designed, which does not center align the .5x and 1x views, it is, from an OLED engineering perspective, impossible to not have horizontal offset (in addition to the vertical offset) between the two views.

At 10 - 12x magnification on the 1x view, you should be able to clearly see and count the pixels that comprise the 640x480 OLED display matrix. Note how the pixels are not perfectly square, they have a 2:1 (vertical to horizontal) aspect ratio. This corresponds with the 2.5 mil : 1.3 mil offset ratio. When a pixel is double zoomed (e.g. from .5x to 1x in this case), it goes from 2:1 to 4:2. Since one pixel is the smallest increment, you can't center the 2:1 (single pixel .5x) and 4:2 (four pixel 1x) views.

When transposed from a single pixel (at .5x) to a four pixel matrix (at 1x), the original single pixel will have to be placed in one of the quadrants of the four pixel matrix. No matter which quadrant it is placed in, there will be a 2:1 (vertical to horizontal) offset.

When engineering at the pixel level, where the view is really a giant matrix of tall rectangles, offsetting up and to the right is the general practice when "increasing" zoom, and the exact opposite when zooming down.

FLIR has confirmed that on the vertical offset, they generally prefer to go up (when zooming), but can go either left or right on the horizontal matrix.

Therefore, from an engineering perspective, understanding that your OLED display is not analog but digital (comprised of a matrix of 2v:1h blocks), there MUST be BOTH vertical and horizontal offset when doubling the T60 zoom from .5x to 1x.

IR-V

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

IR-V again I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the theoretical reasoning and first hand experience regarding the T-60. I certainly would not encourage anyone to use the device per my instructions unless first verified by field tests.

This method is working really nice for me. I shot more today and it is easy to hold 1moa at 100-300yds using the .5 zero and 1mil on 1x. I'm not seeing the horizontal offset during actual firing.

To anyone that owns a T-60 I would suggest you stay with IR-Vs instructions unless you are able to do extensive tests to verify what a .5 zero will do in your set-up.

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IR-V again I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the theoretical reasoning and first hand experience regarding the T-60. I certainly would not encourage anyone to use the device per my instructions unless first verified by field tests.

This method is working really nice for me. I shot more today and it is easy to hold 1moa at 100-300yds using the .5 zero and 1mil on 1x. I'm not seeing the horizontal offset during actual firing.

To anyone that owns a T-60 I would suggest you stay with IR-Vs instructions unless you are able to do extensive tests to verify what a .5 zero will do in your set-up.

</div></div>

Have you done any more testing? I just got my T60, and will try to do some similar testing as well.

 

[Augustus]

Re: T-60 Flir

I have been busy and haven't had the chance to do any more testing. I will do more in the next couple of weeks. Let me know how it goes with you.

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

[img:left]http://

[/img]

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

I haven't yet seen anyone post high-fidelity photos of the user's actual view through a scope behind the FLIR T60, so here are actual photos of the field of view (FOV) taken last night, from a 50 foot tower we use for rappelling exercises and overlooking a Hogan's Alley complex.

There was no moon, skies were clear (with stars visible), the temperature was 25 degrees F, and the wind was less than 5 mph -- ideal conditions for thermal imaging.

The image on the left is with the T60 set to 0.5x and the Zeiss / Hensoldt T* scope set to 5x magnification. Polarity is set to black hot. The building on the left is ~175 yards away; the building at the center is ~205 yards away; and the building at the far, upper right hand corner is ~760 yards away. Note how you can actually see the power lines on the horizon at 800 yards away.

The image on the right is with the T60 set to 1.0x and the Zeiss / Hensoldt T* scope set to 5x magnification. The scope has been locked into a fixed position for the change from 0.5x to unity on the T60. Polarity is set to black hot. Note how you can actually see the thermal signature of the stud structure, of the building, through the siding.

The purpose of the side-by-side photos of the FOV is to show how to test for offset on the point of aim (POA) between the 0.5x and 1.0x settings on the T60, which was a question in your original post (OP). My first FOV photo was the image on the right (T60 1.0x) ... note how I set the reticle to coincide with the corner and sides of a window. I then changed the T60 setting back to 0.5x, and snapped the photo on the left. Note the position of the center of the reticule and how it has changed, in relation to the image, in the exact 1H:2V ratio that I had explained earlier.

The gimbal mount on the scoped rifle + FLIR T60 had been mechanically locked to prevent any shifting of the POA. I used an iPad2 with LaRue camera alignment jig to quickly get focussed images of the actual view through the scope. The image resolution is pretty decent for a crappy iPad2 pin-hole camera.

At the bottom of the photo is an image of the mounting system I used to stabilize the scope rifle + FLIR T60. It is one of our standard sharpshooting rigs. I had to haul all of it up to the top of the rappelling tower for the photos, so the lightweight, carbon fiber construction of the mount's structural members and a good MOLLE scabbard for it all really helped.

I'm adapting our SENVG wireless streaming video rig for this, and by next week I'll have a demo of the video output from the T60 streaming over wireless (wi-fi) signal to laptop computers, iPads and iPhones at a "remote" "command center" via direct wi-fi connection <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> with broadcast over secure Internet.

IR-V

 

[Ronn72562]

Re: T-60 Flir

Hi IR-v
James Bond does not even have the toys you play with-WOW
Ron

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi IR-v
James Bond does not even have the toys you play with-WOW
Ron </div></div>

Hello Ron,

Thanks for your kind words. Hopefully by all of us posting good information and good pics of our experiences, we all can share, vicariously, in the fun!

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

IR-V, thanks for the self-explanatory photos.

I for one would love to hear more about setting up a wireless video feed off the FLIR thermal camera, that is on my list of things to learn how to do...

 

[TestnDoc]

Re: T-60 Flir

Very nice IR-V !!! Thanks for the photos. I will try to get some posted soon, we have had lots of rainy weather here lately.

 

[SkyPup]

Re: T-60 Flir

I would have to tend to believe that on a OLED pixelated viewing screen, there is absolutely no way that changing the internal magnification of the viewer would not affect a transition of the POI?

External magnification should not be a problem though.

 

[Ronn72562]

Re: T-60 Flir

Hi IR-v
Your pics and descriptions are amazing and help so many folks on this site who are learning new technology.
Thank you
Ron

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TestnDoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very nice IR-V !!! Thanks for the photos. I will try to get some posted soon, we have had lots of rainy weather here lately. </div></div>

Thanks for appreciating, TestnDoc! Kudos to you also on your outstanding Advanced Thermal Weapon System! The T60 makes a great, multi-purpose, thermal sensor also ... mount to tripod, hook the video out to your TV monitor, and there's lots of indoor thermal imaging fun to be had (until there's better weather outdoors)!

You can also check the offset between your 0.5x and 1.0x modes on the T60. Electrical outlet plates make great, impromptu, indoor "test patterns". I recommend "setting up" at 10 yards (if you're measuring your test pattern in inches or 10 meters if you're using millimeters. Once your record your offsets, and convert them to milliradians, you'll find that the offset will remain constant in mrads regardless of the magnification setting of your dayscope. The FFP (first focal plane) reticule placement of your S&B scope is perfect for these tests.

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would have to tend to believe that on a OLED pixelated viewing screen, there is absolutely no way that changing the internal magnification of the viewer would not affect a transition of the POI?

External magnification should not be a problem though. </div></div>

That is a correct assumption, SkyPup. The pixel geometry of the FLIR T60 OLED will have horizontal and vertical offset when interpolating between 0.5x and 1.0x modes. A single pixel on the FLIR T60 OLED has a 2V:1H aspect ratio. Doubling it increases the area of the pixel by 4x, creating an interpolated pixel that is equal in area to four actual pixels. When engineering the interpolation from 0.5x to 1.0x, the original 0.5x pixel has to be aligned into one of the four pixel spaces of the 1.0x interpolated pixel -- there is no middle position for the centers of the 0.5x pixel and 1.0x interpolated pixel to be aligned. Therefore, there MUST be both vertical and horizontal offset, and it will have the same proportion as that of a single 0.5x pixel.

Whether the offset will be in a NW, NE, SW, or SE direction can vary by unit, but the 2V:1H offset ratio / proportion will always be present ... and constant (i.e. regardless of magnification on the day scope).

I had originally scanned in a sketch (illustrating the above) that I had drawn on a sticky note and put onto a page from the T60 manual. I decided to edit away (redact) the text from the page of the T60 manual to avoid conflicting with ITAR controls. Here's just my sketch below ...

IR-V

 

[IR-V]

Re: T-60 Flir

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi IR-v
Your pics and descriptions are amazing and help so many folks on this site who are learning new technology.
Thank you
Ron </div></div>

Thank you, Ron, for your <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">very</span></span> kind words and your appreciation! It is always a pleasure to share knowledge with fellow, inquisitive minds!

IR-V