I know this has been brought up before but I just don't get it. Saw a "Top Tactical" pic from a recent match and looked to see where the shooter finished. He finished 45 out of 86 shooters and 1st out of the 2 shooters in "Tac Division". What is the point? I have no problems with competitors shooting the cartridge of their choice but why is there a separate class for it? The vast majority of those I see shooting it are not military or LE. Isn't the military moving to 6.5CM anyway? Get rid of Tac Class and while your at it get rid of production class which is worthless. If you want to have a "New Shooter" class that is great. But production class as it is currently defined is worthless. Done ranting. Let the flaming begin.
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PRS Talk Tactical Class - Why?
- Thread starter LRdasher
- Start date
Why not have a class for those who can only run 308 or 556? Who cares if the Top Tac finisher is in 50th place overall? Their standing and overall finish has no bearing on you, your standing, or your performance at a match if you aren’t competing in that division.
...or is it a matter of “why do they get a trophy and I don’t? They only had one other person in their division while I had to compete against 80 others and that isn’t fair.” Because if that’s your inner reasoning, then you need to remember that it’s a voluntary game that you pay to play.
What about female or youth trophies? If there are two kids and one female, then you have the same situation.
Same thing, yet again, goes for production class. If that’s all they can afford and want to participate as a fun hobby against a similar equipment base, then so what? Is it effecting you and your standing or is it because these other divisions/classes are taking home trophies without being in the overall top 3?
The sport is constantly talking about wanting to expand and bring in/retain new shooters, yet you have posts like this.
Who hurt you?
It’s a voluntary game killer. You aren’t shooting for blood. So trophies, divisions, and standings are only worth the value you personally assign them.
...or is it a matter of “why do they get a trophy and I don’t? They only had one other person in their division while I had to compete against 80 others and that isn’t fair.” Because if that’s your inner reasoning, then you need to remember that it’s a voluntary game that you pay to play.
What about female or youth trophies? If there are two kids and one female, then you have the same situation.
Same thing, yet again, goes for production class. If that’s all they can afford and want to participate as a fun hobby against a similar equipment base, then so what? Is it effecting you and your standing or is it because these other divisions/classes are taking home trophies without being in the overall top 3?
The sport is constantly talking about wanting to expand and bring in/retain new shooters, yet you have posts like this.
Who hurt you?
It’s a voluntary game killer. You aren’t shooting for blood. So trophies, divisions, and standings are only worth the value you personally assign them.
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All of the shooters I see shooting Tac can shoot any cartridge they want. They choose to shoot 308 which is fine.
I am all for a MIL/LE class. I am also for womens, kids and new shooter classes to try and bring more shooters into the game.
TAC just makes no sense to me.
The rules in Tac state 308/556 only (with specifics lifted). If they are shooting any other caliber, or the specs are outside of the set rules, then they aren’t Tac Div shooters.
Not sure why it isn’t a logical class in your mind, maybe I’m just understanding the argument for removing it. My bad if I’m missing your point.
Is the primary mil/le caliber still 308/556? Yes.
Are there more efficient calibers out there? Definitely.
Is the Tac Div roster usually shorter than the open roster? Yes.
Does that mean a class for the 308/556 should go away? No.
There are plenty of factors leading into why you don’t see many mil/le running matches or in that div. Rotating shift schedules, budgets, being denied leave/extended libo/out of bounds libo chits/not having a bolt gun with them as a single soldier/marine living in the barracks/married soldiers/marines not wanting to cut into family time that they barely get while on AD...etc. (obviously I only said soldiers to be inclusive lol and didn’t mention sailors or airmen because they aren’t real people). Mil/LE make up a super small portion of the US population, let alone the recreational shooting population. How many people at your local range are mil/le or even former mil/le? Like one person? It’s only logical that most the dudes running in that division aren’t mil/le.
I don't see a problem with keeping Open, Tac, Ladies, Youth, and Production classes, but that’s just me. I do think that a “New Shooter” division would help attract new shooters and keep them coming back by not being overwhelmed.
Also, I’d imagine another reason to keep the Tac Div is the sales pitch potential for Mil/Le to convince their dept/unit to approve the request time off/leave. It gives them more of a leg to stand on in terms of convincing their supervisor of the legitimacy behind their reasoning. I’m reaching a bit with this one, but it’s an angle I’d have definitely used if I was still in and trying to convince my BN to approve my out of bounds libo pass and allow me to attend matches.
Not sure why it isn’t a logical class in your mind, maybe I’m just understanding the argument for removing it. My bad if I’m missing your point.
Is the primary mil/le caliber still 308/556? Yes.
Are there more efficient calibers out there? Definitely.
Is the Tac Div roster usually shorter than the open roster? Yes.
Does that mean a class for the 308/556 should go away? No.
There are plenty of factors leading into why you don’t see many mil/le running matches or in that div. Rotating shift schedules, budgets, being denied leave/extended libo/out of bounds libo chits/not having a bolt gun with them as a single soldier/marine living in the barracks/married soldiers/marines not wanting to cut into family time that they barely get while on AD...etc. (obviously I only said soldiers to be inclusive lol and didn’t mention sailors or airmen because they aren’t real people). Mil/LE make up a super small portion of the US population, let alone the recreational shooting population. How many people at your local range are mil/le or even former mil/le? Like one person? It’s only logical that most the dudes running in that division aren’t mil/le.
I don't see a problem with keeping Open, Tac, Ladies, Youth, and Production classes, but that’s just me. I do think that a “New Shooter” division would help attract new shooters and keep them coming back by not being overwhelmed.
Also, I’d imagine another reason to keep the Tac Div is the sales pitch potential for Mil/Le to convince their dept/unit to approve the request time off/leave. It gives them more of a leg to stand on in terms of convincing their supervisor of the legitimacy behind their reasoning. I’m reaching a bit with this one, but it’s an angle I’d have definitely used if I was still in and trying to convince my BN to approve my out of bounds libo pass and allow me to attend matches.
If I remember correctly (I don't shoot PRS) it was to bring in legitimate military and LE guys whose real-life government-owned weapons come in either 308 and 223.
Civilians can buy and customize to their heart's content. On-the-job snipers might or might not be able to customize a weapon that belongs to a bigger organization.
Civilians can buy and customize to their heart's content. On-the-job snipers might or might not be able to customize a weapon that belongs to a bigger organization.
I’m with you! Let’s do away with Tac class.
And while we are at it why not do away with standing, sitting, and sling supported stages. Since those would be gone we could do away with slings. There’s not many production class shooters so let’s do away with that too while we are at it.
Hell let’s just change the whole site to PRSmatchshootershide.com! Then we can all just shoot custom 6mm rifles with 26” barrels and 9” long suppressors that weigh 25lbs from our carbon fiber tripods. We can then argue 10ozs vs 4ozs trigger and free recoil vs shoulder firing.
And while we are at it why not do away with standing, sitting, and sling supported stages. Since those would be gone we could do away with slings. There’s not many production class shooters so let’s do away with that too while we are at it.
Hell let’s just change the whole site to PRSmatchshootershide.com! Then we can all just shoot custom 6mm rifles with 26” barrels and 9” long suppressors that weigh 25lbs from our carbon fiber tripods. We can then argue 10ozs vs 4ozs trigger and free recoil vs shoulder firing.
Then don't fucking shoot in it.
Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to YOU. It AIN'T about YOU
Every Single Time I see someone complaining about production division or tactical division in PRS (or revolver or limited 10, and now even production in USPSA) and whining about why such a division even exists, it is ALWAYS someone doesn't participate in it and is absolutely not affected by that division or the people who play in it.
Exactly my point. And since the majority of those shooting TAC are not Mil/LE why not have a Mil/LE class and drop TAC.
Forgive me if I'm incorrect but your tone is coming off as "Elitist". Having very limited comp experience and knowing that won't likely change in the future, I find the TAC division enticing. And no, I'm not MIL/LE so I would have to be excluded by your idea. The TAC division actually seems more real world but also more challenging on a personal level without all the hype. I do enjoy the competition and experience of the PRS style comps but do not particularly care for the smugness and gaming attitude that is often observed in top 5.
If you don't like it, don't shoot it.... I don't see the heartburn.
I know where he's coming from. I think the issue is the eye rolls subsequent to sandbagging that goes on.
I don't see an issue with the classes themselves but some of the articles posted about prominent shooters in these divisions are nauseating.
I remember one earlier this year about what an awesome shooter a division leader was, how he was tearing it up, in first place, and showing people how it was done.
Two of the three division 'wins' that put him in first he was the only shooter in the division.
Shoot whatever and however you want, but if we're going to do the whole 'hes the fuckin man cause he's the division leader' thing expect a few eye rolls. ?
I don't see an issue with the classes themselves but some of the articles posted about prominent shooters in these divisions are nauseating.
I remember one earlier this year about what an awesome shooter a division leader was, how he was tearing it up, in first place, and showing people how it was done.
Two of the three division 'wins' that put him in first he was the only shooter in the division.
Shoot whatever and however you want, but if we're going to do the whole 'hes the fuckin man cause he's the division leader' thing expect a few eye rolls. ?
Who would want this title if your comrades consider it "king of the short bus"? You would not find me bragging if I win an event because I'm the only competitor...
That's a completely different issue. If that's what he meant then that's what he should have said.
Shit... call me the bus driver then, because I'd be hoisting that trophy overhead and running around like Rocky climbing the steps!!!I might even have t-shirts, hats, business cards, etc made!
Shit... call me the bus driver then, because I'd be hoisting that trophy overhead and running around like Rocky climbing the steps!!!I might even have t-shirts, hats, business cards, etc made!
Now you've got me thinking I want to ride the short bus
In fairness to the shooter he didn't write the article. I just scraped the inside of my skull with my eyeballs they rolled so hard reading this dumbass 'he's the next big deal in precision rifle and won three of the last four matches in xyz division' article.
It’s an ego thing. Dudes care more about what other dudes are doing and winning, when it doesn’t involve or pertain to them, so they complain about others.
Same people bitch about the younger generation being the participation trophy generation, yet bitch because others are getting trophies in other divisions and they aren't getting trophies in theirs.
I think there are more Mil/Leo shooting tactical class than the OP is aware. There are a bunch of dudes who were active MIL/LEO that shoot it. I am active duty MIL/LEO and I shoot tactical class and I enjoy it much more than the years I shot open. One thing is for dang sure, NOBODY will ever ask you what your wind call was.
I don't shoot with my duty weapon, but many of my coworkers that dip their toe into PRS tend to start out with their duty weapon.
I don't shoot with my duty weapon, but many of my coworkers that dip their toe into PRS tend to start out with their duty weapon.
And while we are bitching about Tac class I do have one complaint. WTF is the weight limit on bullets 178gr for .308. It needs to changed to allow the 185gr juggs. Maybe then I might give some money to PRS to keep my scores
I’m a Tac class shooter. I’m actually the type of shooter “PRS” should be looking to attract. I’m interested in getting better with my rifle and making new friends.
I have zero interest in being in the top whatever number of shooters. I do not have any interest in shooting hot rod 6mm’s that you have to chase the throat.
A match is just another day at the range for me. My goal is to make as many hits as I can and not finish last. Of the 3 matches I’ve been to my best finish was mid pack of 30 shooters. The last match I went to had targets to 1500 and I shot it with my 18” barrel and juggs. I haven’t finished last.
I shoot .308 because is makes sense for me. 90% of my shooting is at 400yds and in. I don’t reload. I need more trigger time to learn the wind and less worries about barrel life and was that flier me or is my throat going south.
With my setup I know if I miss it was Me that screwed up. I either botched a wind call or my fundamentals. Period.
I would love to be at a match where a shooter brought a stock 700 or Savage in .308 and finished well. That would impress me.
I’m a Tac class shooter. I’m actually the type of shooter “PRS” should be looking to attract. I’m interested in getting better with my rifle and making new friends.
I have zero interest in being in the top whatever number of shooters. I do not have any interest in shooting hot rod 6mm’s that you have to chase the throat.
A match is just another day at the range for me. My goal is to make as many hits as I can and not finish last. Of the 3 matches I’ve been to my best finish was mid pack of 30 shooters. The last match I went to had targets to 1500 and I shot it with my 18” barrel and juggs. I haven’t finished last.
I shoot .308 because is makes sense for me. 90% of my shooting is at 400yds and in. I don’t reload. I need more trigger time to learn the wind and less worries about barrel life and was that flier me or is my throat going south.
With my setup I know if I miss it was Me that screwed up. I either botched a wind call or my fundamentals. Period.
I would love to be at a match where a shooter brought a stock 700 or Savage in .308 and finished well. That would impress me.
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Agree with / want to reinforce some comments above: Except for like one match I went to where a whole US Army unit came down together, and a few cops who show up at matches with their badges visible, shooters are shooters. You won't know at a glance unless you ask what someone's job is, or if that boring old rifle is their work gun or their personal gun (or often: their personal gun that matches the work gun because no one gives them permission to take the work gun home, or to matches).
I shoot with plenty of current police and mil guys. Even in IDPA which has an exception and lets you shoot duty gear instead of concealed: they all look the same as normal shooters, show up in normal clothes with giveaway gun brand hats, and /maybe/ better earpro than the average bear. Maybe.
I shoot with plenty of current police and mil guys. Even in IDPA which has an exception and lets you shoot duty gear instead of concealed: they all look the same as normal shooters, show up in normal clothes with giveaway gun brand hats, and /maybe/ better earpro than the average bear. Maybe.
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Original intent: for Mil/Le to have a division in which they could use their work rifles/ammo (or rifles/ammo that mimic this), without getting smoked by more competition minded cartridges. Basically a platform to become more familiar/better with their work guns AND compete.
Current intent: no fucking clue
But I don’t really worry with it. If someone wants to shoot it, go for it. And as far as prizes go, last Tac class winner a week ago got a bag. So it’s not like they are sucking up something good for 40th or whatever.
I think they could modify tac class a bit and make it better, but it doesn’t matter much
Current intent: no fucking clue
But I don’t really worry with it. If someone wants to shoot it, go for it. And as far as prizes go, last Tac class winner a week ago got a bag. So it’s not like they are sucking up something good for 40th or whatever.
I think they could modify tac class a bit and make it better, but it doesn’t matter much
Are their any dept/agencies/branches currently using 185 juggs?
Reason for bullet limitations is what is typically used for duty ammo.
Though, I agree, they should change it as the original intent is out the window.
I can see the limitation if the intent is for duty type ammo.
My understanding from reading here is the weight limitations on bullets in Tac class was to keep with the spirit of factory length type ammo. Basically to eliminate long loaded 80 and 90 .223’s and long loaded 200+gr .308’s. There aren’t factory loaded .223 ammo above 77grs and at the time 178gr was about the max for factory match in .308.
If factory ish ammo is the intent then 185 juggs should be allowed and Tac class might get some more interest.
I think a better solution is to only allow factory ammo in the TAC division vs. limiting bullet weight. I don't shoot TAC division in PRS, but do occasionally shoot my Sako TRG in 308 in club and monthly matches. I like the challenge of it.
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The limitations are bullet weight and velocity (under 2800fps for classy .308 types). I don't think the factory vs reloads will make much difference. The velocity restrictions discourage us from pushing the 155s to their full potential.
Locally it's not unheard of to see Tac shooters placing within the top 20 overall at club matches, including some guys shooting straight 223s.
The last club match I shot the 2nd place shooter overall was shooting a 223. The match I shot before that (1135 was the farthest target) the top Tac shooter (223) was 9th overall, the 2nd highest Tac shooter (308) was 14th overall, and the 3rd highest (223) was 16th overall. At that match, out of a field of nearly 100 shooters I think there were almost 20 shooting Tac Class.
Granted many of the guys doing this well are fairly serious shooters who do well in 2-day pro series matches, and if they're shooting a 223 it's as a way to save some money on ammo while also intentionally handicapping themselves. Some of them are also Mil/LEO, some aren't. Some are shooting work guns, others are just using what they have or prefer a bit more of a challenge.
Regardless, I don't see anything wrong with having a class that allows shooters using what are essentially handicapped cartridges to compare scores among themselves, regardless of why they choose to do so.
The last club match I shot the 2nd place shooter overall was shooting a 223. The match I shot before that (1135 was the farthest target) the top Tac shooter (223) was 9th overall, the 2nd highest Tac shooter (308) was 14th overall, and the 3rd highest (223) was 16th overall. At that match, out of a field of nearly 100 shooters I think there were almost 20 shooting Tac Class.
Granted many of the guys doing this well are fairly serious shooters who do well in 2-day pro series matches, and if they're shooting a 223 it's as a way to save some money on ammo while also intentionally handicapping themselves. Some of them are also Mil/LEO, some aren't. Some are shooting work guns, others are just using what they have or prefer a bit more of a challenge.
Regardless, I don't see anything wrong with having a class that allows shooters using what are essentially handicapped cartridges to compare scores among themselves, regardless of why they choose to do so.
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The Tactical Divisions seems to be running fine and I don't know of any serious complaints by those of us that shoot it. Most of the solutions that have been proffered are likely by those that don't or haven't shot in the Tactical Division.
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I feel like there is allot of eliteism in here. At the regional match I shot there are currently 4 guys I shot with in my normal squad that run 223 and I'll b a 5th next year. There's no tac class in our region and the 223s finish very competitive there. The nice thing about tac class is it negates the money game. There's no fighting over the next big round. Tac classes means I don't have to deal with the list of pros and cons needed to decide between so many rds that everyone shoots. The regular guys I shoot with use a total of 7 cartridges last year over 5 shooters. Tac class pretty much negates the caliber war and takes allot of stress of newer shooters.
I’d be happy just to find a local match in any class (though I do have a nice 223 setup that hammers 75 ELDMs right at 3000).
You'd think living in N Texas (DFW) it’d be more popular; maybe I’m not looking in the right places.
I’m a member at TripleC and see occasional PRS guys running around, but not sure how or where to get started. I’d actually prefer some sort of F-Class, but they’re nowhere to be found.
You'd think living in N Texas (DFW) it’d be more popular; maybe I’m not looking in the right places.
I’m a member at TripleC and see occasional PRS guys running around, but not sure how or where to get started. I’d actually prefer some sort of F-Class, but they’re nowhere to be found.
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For those wondering why @LRdasher is complaining, I can explain it quite simply for you - he/she wants "better" stuff from the prize table for himself/herself.
He/she's mostly likely upset because many matches allow the top Tactical class finisher to walk the prize table earlier, usually directly after the match winner or the top-3/top-5/top-10 of the match. By this I mean some matches have overall finishers 1-10 walk, then top Tactical, top Production, top Lady, etc. Other matches have the match winner walk first, then top Tactical, top Production, etc.
The only possible reason for someone to bitch about having a small category in the match for those shooting .223 and .308 is because they don't want an extra person walking the prize table ahead of them for winning said category. Other than having 1 extra person ahead of you in line it doesn't affect you in any possible way.
In other words, it all comes down to personal greed.
He/she's mostly likely upset because many matches allow the top Tactical class finisher to walk the prize table earlier, usually directly after the match winner or the top-3/top-5/top-10 of the match. By this I mean some matches have overall finishers 1-10 walk, then top Tactical, top Production, top Lady, etc. Other matches have the match winner walk first, then top Tactical, top Production, etc.
The only possible reason for someone to bitch about having a small category in the match for those shooting .223 and .308 is because they don't want an extra person walking the prize table ahead of them for winning said category. Other than having 1 extra person ahead of you in line it doesn't affect you in any possible way.
In other words, it all comes down to personal greed.
I’d like to see some changes to Tac class to level the field. I would limit max rifle weight to 20lbs, limit max barrel length to 26”, limit minimum trigger weight to 2.5lbs, and allow bullets up to 185gr for .308.
As it stands I’m still going to shoot .308 for awhile longer. I have no plans to join PRS. The matches I attend restrict gear and don’t have prize tables.
As it stands I’m still going to shoot .308 for awhile longer. I have no plans to join PRS. The matches I attend restrict gear and don’t have prize tables.
lol exactly. Not sure how people aren’t seeing that.
The “field” feels pretty level from those of us in the Tactical Class. The 185s are great but they are not god killers and if a shooter is struggling to make impacts with 178s, the 185s are not going to substantially change his/her abilities.
that’s likely not it at all...I get what he’s saying and know lots of shooters who feel the same way
this thread was someone trying to make a certain point and a bunch of others takin it personal and getting in their feels because they don’t have a full understanding of the details
it’s not about the newer/more recreational shooters...it’s about the ones with every option and opportunity to shoot open, but they stay in tac (which was originally intended for work rifle’s and factory ammo) and they game it up to the max with the same stuff you’d see in Open just so they can go home with a trophy and hype post
now go ahead and tell me I’m just worried about a tac shooter getting to the prize table ahead of me too lol
But it doesn’t matter what they are running because they are confined to 308/556 w/ set projectile weights and velocities.
The reason why everyone sees it as a dude bitching about prizes and placing is because the OP specifically mentioned the Tac shooters overall standing and how he never sees a lot of mil/le shooters in the div when he goes.
Seen the "tactical early" prize table in several domains. If not formally, they may even say "anyone object to Ted going first since he's from a poor impoverished police department, came here on his own dime?" A few grumble to themselves, but they are the usual suspects. 95% of the participants are happy to see someone who really needs it, and cannot afford it themselves, get better stuff. Oh, and by picking early, stuff they will directly use, not sell to fund their other needs.
It goes hand in hand to the original intent of the class I have to assume.
Sure, it could be abused I guess, but what can't be?
It goes hand in hand to the original intent of the class I have to assume.
Sure, it could be abused I guess, but what can't be?
ok so a 30 lb custom weighted 308 shooting the heaviest bullets at the speed limit is the same as a guy running a 13lb dept issued rem700 with factory gold medal match?
read lawns posts above...he actually gets it
I think Lawn makes a solid point about sandbagging. While that happens I don’t think it’s prolific.
Yeah, some open class shooter don’t like how some match directors do the prize table walk and I get that but by and large the only TAC class shooter that cuts the line is the #1 guy. The rest wait their turn in the chute.
I like the FPS limit at 2800. That keeps things at some semblance of level. I run 175TMK at 2750 and many of my counterparts are in that band of velocity as well..... or at least that what they tell me ?
A.308 pushing 155s >2900 should absolutely be in open class.
Yeah, some open class shooter don’t like how some match directors do the prize table walk and I get that but by and large the only TAC class shooter that cuts the line is the #1 guy. The rest wait their turn in the chute.
I like the FPS limit at 2800. That keeps things at some semblance of level. I run 175TMK at 2750 and many of my counterparts are in that band of velocity as well..... or at least that what they tell me ?
A.308 pushing 155s >2900 should absolutely be in open class.
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That's the only issue I have with the ruleset
Make the velocity slide inversely proportional with weight, or just come up with a power factor based on 178 grains and 2800 fps (498) and let shooters decide on their own combination of light/fast or heavy/slow to get to it.
Just how does that affect the OP, you, or anyone else not competing in Tac class?
I have every option and opportunity to shoot in Limited, Open, or Carry Optics (the new hotness) in USPSA but I choose not to. Whose business is that of anyone but me?
I think you meant 155s > 2900. Anyway, I don't agree. If that were the case, Palma and F-TR shooters would be all over 155s going that fast.
They're not.
who said it did?
i dont have to be affected by something to see the point being made and have an opinion on it
I like shooting Tac class from time to time. I shoot open in the 2 day matches but this year in the regional I shot Tac because I haven't shot my .308 in a match in years. I wanted to get back out with it and play. It's actually fun to mix it up and it makes you think more about those wind calls and deal with a little more recoil in positional. It's about a 15 pound .308 shooting factory 168 ELD ammo. No ARCA, no chassis with moving bipods, no tripod attachments and the 168s are only going about 2740fps so my set up shouldn't upset anyone in the post.
Tac class doesn't hurt anything or take anything from anyone else so I don't see a big deal with it being there but you know what they say about opinions.
Tac class doesn't hurt anything or take anything from anyone else so I don't see a big deal with it being there but you know what they say about opinions.
Im planning on running 75s at 3000 this year some. My shooting busy did all last year. It's amazing the difference in numbers. I think in some ways tac class deserves the extra recognition because it's a whole different Challenge that open class isn't dealing with.
Most of the matches I go to don't even check/enforce the current bullet weight and speed restrictions in Tac - you really think anyone's going to mess with trigger pull weight and rifle overall weight? At least barrel length is an easy and obvious check - and it's nearly meaningless.
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