Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

T

targetterror

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Sep 16, 2008
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Boston, MA
#1
I'm getting a nice tax refund this year and I'd like to pick up a dedicated long-range AR upper. Shooting will be 200-600 yards at the range, no hunting (possibly further if I ever actually find such a range near me, and I have my doubts). I did some searches but was actually surprised that there wasn't all that much info on my specific interests.

Basically, I a have competition service rifle, with standard DPMS lower and A2 stock, with the 2-stage Geisselle trigger. Upper is a WOA. I'm looking for an upper to swap onto this lower, so the trigger issue I considered to be resolved favorably. First, I KNOW that there are better calibers than .223, but I already have all of the .223 components, dies, etc and I'd rather not add another specialized caliber to my repertoire just yet. And I have an excellent .308 bolt gun, so that satisfies my "I need a bigger caliber for longer range" urges. I'd also like to be able to shoot a decent size string before having to let the barrel cool down.

So that narrows things down to a 20, 24, or 26 inch varmint upper from what I gather. I'm VERY tempted by the WOA varmint uppers - excellent price and excellent reputation. I guess my main question is which barrel length to get, and whether to consider any other manufacturers. Right now I'm leaning heavily towards the 24 incher - long enough to get some extra velocity from a 20 inch barrel, but without feeling and looking too long and cumbersome. Though I do notice that WOA only offer a 1/8 twist as fastest for the 24 and 26 inch barrels (not sure why?).

Also, does anyone know what sort of ballistics to expect for a given load from a 20, 24, and 26 inch barrel? How much (if anything) am I likely to gain with the extra 2 inches on a 26 incher? I'll mostly use 77 grain SMKs with Reloader 15 (per my service rifle load), though I'd probably play around with some of the heavier bullets too and other powders as appropriate.

I'm aware of the issue of getting good optics, but I'm concerned right now strictly with which upper to get.

 
#2
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I am kinda the same boat you are right now. What I'm putting together is a 20" with a 1:8 twist. And also I'm going to run 69gr cause I have seen in a few places that the 77s are not very good because they don't stabilize vary well. But then again this is also new to me and that is info that I have ran across.
 
#3
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I shoot 77 gain Black Hills Moly 77 grain .233 with a 20 in barrel. It took me 52 minutes of angle to get there. I mounted it with a La Rue LT-107 (30 minute cant).
 
#4
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dagger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot 77 gain Black Hills Moly 77 grain .233 with a 20 in barrel. It took me 52 minutes of angle to get there. I mounted it with a La Rue LT-107 (30 minute cant). </div></div>

To get where? What distance?
 
#5
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I'm currently waiting on the Mega monolithic uppper w/LW 24" 1-8 twist barrel. This will be mated with the Seekins lower I bought in the group buy about a year ago. Should be a great combination.
Mega just had a group buy on uppers, lowers, and monolithic rails. Give "Krayons" a look in the group buys.
 
#6
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

The best I have ever owned was a Bushmaster Varminter with a 24" fluted barrel. Right out of the box it was flat out awesome at 300 yds. Easily shot 1/2 MOA with a Weaver V16 optic on top. Handloads were Varget with 50gr CT ballstic silvertips - good combo for all my AR's.
 
#7
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

Thanks all. One thing I don't get is that the WOA 24 and 26 inch barrels only come in 1 in 8 as the fastest twist. Any reason for this? Do the longer barrels stabilize the heavier bullets with a slower twist? (I don't think so, as isn't stabilization based on the bullet itself as it travels through the air?)
 
#8
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

It sounds like you are on the right track. WOA makes excellent products. I'm not sure what the difference in ballistics two inches would be. If you are going for distance you'll want to use a heavier bullet. A 1-8 twist from a 24-26" barrel should be enough to stabilize a 77gr bullet. I think that is as heavy as you can go and still feed from the magazine reliably.
 
#9
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

1-8 twist. Read here:

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

I use a Shilen barrel in 1-8 twist and 77 gr handloads shoot 1/4 MOA. They state on there that 1-7 works best for 90s and up. I was told you want the slowest twist you can have to properly stabilize the bullet. I guess too fast doesn't really get you anything. Anyway, 77s shoot awesome in that twist, but lighter stuff will drive tacks too. I have a 1-7 WOA that won't shoot light stuff, but shoots 77s and up real well (but not as well as my shilen and the shilen is easier to clean with the ratchet rifling). In a varmint upper from WOA, that is probably their thinking in that choice since you can shoot 77s and still shoot commerical 50-60 gr varmint loads.
 
#10
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

A lot of barrels that are listed as 1-7 twist are actually 1-7.77, have to keep that in mind sometimes when looking at twist rates as well.
 
#11
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

The good news is that you already have what you need to shoot 200-600 yards at the range.

Don't worry about barrel length. You won't get any benefit out of anything over 22" in a .223 anyway, unless you are planning to attach competition iron sights.

Worry about twist. Forget the 90's and 6.5 twist. If you're going to shoot 80's then a straight-8 or any fractional 7 will do.

Derrick Martin can make an inexpensive long-range upper on whatever barrel you want. Mine's done on a cheap Douglas barrel and it shoots just fine.
 
#12
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

It's bullet RPM that matters most in the equation of deciding what twist will stabilize what bullet.
Longer barrels impart greater velocity and thus greater RPM, therefore they are able to stabilize the same bullets at lower twist rates.
I had a 20" wilson 1:8 barrel that would throw fliers with about 25% frequency shooting 80 A-maxes with 24.0 RL15.
I bumped it up to 24.5 and never had another flier again.
This was most likely because of the extra spin the (approx 50 ft/sec) increase in velocity gave it.
A .22-250 with a 1:9 barrel would do fine shooting the 80's length bullets.
I know a guy that shoots 90's out of a .223 in a 1:7.7 twist Kreiger. His barrel is 30" I think, anyways his is a supposed "tack driver" with that load.

It doesn't matter what people say, all that matters is what is.
 
#13
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TargetTerror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks all. One thing I don't get is that the WOA 24 and 26 inch barrels only come in 1 in 8 as the fastest twist. Any reason for this? Do the longer barrels stabilize the heavier bullets with a slower twist? (I don't think so, as isn't stabilization based on the bullet itself as it travels through the air?) </div></div>

Longer barrel = higher velocity = less required twist.
 
#14
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

Sorry, 52 minutes of elevation to get to 1000 yds ,1 in 8 twist barrel, 77 grain 223 Black Hills Moly coat remanufactured. The wind is a super challenge but it can be done
 
#15
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Longer barrels impart greater velocity and thus greater RPM, therefore they are able to stabilize the same bullets at lower twist rates.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Longer barrel = higher velocity = less required twist.</div></div>How much more velocity do you get with a .223 out of a 26" barrel as compared to a 22" barrel, even with the slowest powders?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dagger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, 52 minutes of elevation to get to 1000 yds ,1 in 8 twist barrel, 77 grain 223 Black Hills Moly coat remanufactured. The wind is a super challenge but it can be done </div></div>Wow. That's a lot of elevation. I get 10 less MOA on a cold day at factory velocities.
 
#16
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I shoot a RRA 24 inch 1 in 7 and my buddy shoots a White Oak 26", not sure of the twist. We both shoot 77g SMK and I shoot Hornady 75g HPBT. With powders in the Varget, RL15 range I get 150-200 fps higher speed from a load out of my 24" than the same load gets out of my 20" Colt. The only time he and I compared velocity with the same load he got an average of 35 fps faster in a five shot string. I can't recall what the load was.
Both these guns are sub moa. With lighter bullets I use 55 grain and 60 grain Nosler BT on varmints with very good results. Keep in mind that some of the lighter varmint bullets are very fragile and designed to expand violently at 22 hornet velocities. Some of these bullets can't take the high rpm of a fast twist. I've had Hornady SX bullets and Speer TNT bullets come apart in flight in fast twist rifles.
With the heavy bullets we shoot 3/4 scale IPSC steel targets out to 1000 yards. I have a life size steel Prairie Dog that we can keep swinging all day at 450 yards. I have killed Prairie dogs past 500 yards with these loads.

Hope this helps
 
#17
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

24" 1 in 8 is a good setup. Took 3 Prairie dogs in a row at 615 yd. Can push 80 smk at 2850 (weighted carrier) with scant pressure sign. Also shoots 40 gr. Noslers like a laser.
Not something I want to carry around all day but for intended purpose it's fine.
 
#18
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bronco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">24" 1 in 8 is a good setup. Took 3 Prairie dogs in a row at 615 yd. Can push 80 smk at 2850 (weighted carrier) with scant pressure sign. Also shoots 40 gr. Noslers like a laser.
Not something I want to carry around all day but for intended purpose it's fine. </div></div>

Thanks. What is your powder and charge for an 80 smk at 2850? Have you chronoed that load in a shorter barrel out of curiosity?
 
#20
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Babo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"precision, long-range AR15s"

I thought this thread was about disproving a negative; at best highly improbable. </div></div>

What is improbable about an accurate AR15 at long range? Do you question the AR15, or my definition of "long range"?
 
#21
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I suppose we are talking "out-of-the-box" barrels here?
As far as brands, I can highly recommend Sabre Defence as a supplier for your upper.

I have an 18" 1:8 twist fluted SS barrel with the Gill-brake, and it has performed great so far, about 1200 rounds through it now.
Not one single fail-to-feed except the usual mag issues with GI mags (a tip:use H&K mags, worth every single penny), no extraction issues whatsoever. Only mods is a good buffer, ambi mag-release and "tactical" charging handle latch.
BUIS came with it, plenty good enough.
Using 55grs Remington the average grouping is (interestingly enough) just about the same as a Remington VSSF .223 26" barrel 1:12 twist.
Groupings average about 3/4 of an inch, maybe slightly more, at 110 yds, mostly due to crappy shooting on my part, and runnning a DPMS lower with mil-spec trigger on a Harris 9-12" bipod, 4X ACOG crosshair reticle with BDC and Docter on top.
The VSSF has a Mk4 5-20X50 scope and a 6-9" Harris .

John - out
 
#22
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TargetTerror</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Babo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"precision, long-range AR15s"

I thought this thread was about disproving a negative; at best highly improbable. </div></div>

What is improbable about an accurate AR15 at long range? Do you question the AR15, or my definition of "long range"? </div></div>

Nothing "improbable" at all about having an AR-based platform that is both a precision rifle and capable of making accurate hits at extended ranges. You have already stated that your "extended" range will be 600 yards (perhaps a little more) and there are PLENTY of AR-15 rifles chambered in .223/5.56 that are HIGHLY accurate precision instruments at that range and further.

Plenty of keyboard commandos out there that have never shot a well-built AR-15 that is sub-MOA capable at 600yds+ that may doubt the viability of a "precision, long-range" AR-15, but that doesn't change the fact that they exist and are very effective.

You have already gotten some great advice on build components, but personally, I'd go with a max of around a 22" barrel (diminishing returns after that although there are plenty of 26"+ barrels out there), probably a 1:7 or 1:7.7 (I love my 20" Krieger 1:7.7 with 77gr SMKs, and I have several 1:7 AR's in various configs that also like the 77gr SMK loads).
 
#24
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I witnessed a 2 5/8 inch group at 700yds shot with a WOA 18" 1:7 SPR barrel. Shooting 77smk boxed ammo. Then watched it move out to 800yds with gusting winds. The vertical was about 1 1/2 inches, but the wind got him and it opened to 6 inches.
The story is usually in the barrel.
 
#25
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

I have not done much shooting with my latest AR build. But so far it looks like it is going to be a shooter.
This was the first group I shot with it at 100 yards using Federal 40gr Nosler varmint ammo.

Shopping list:

C3 billet lower
Timney 3 lb trigger
Magpul PRS stock
Jp 20" 1:8 twist upper with LMOS.
JP scope base
NF 5.5-22X NP-R1 w/zerp stop

I have worked up some loads for this rifle using 77gr SMK's over 24.3g of RL-15. Plan on shooting it in a 600 yard match this Sat. if the weather is good.

I really like the JP's...I have two other ones w/16" barrels.

Take care,Stan



 
#26
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

Hey guys, how good do yall think the RRA national match barrel is in accuracy and quality? I just finished building a rifle and I havent shot it yet. Do yall have any experience with 65 grain sierra game kings? They are boattails and we were looking for something heavy to help combat the wind, but while still being a good hunting round... Were gonna use varget powder and I have a bunch of federal brass lying around that we just deprimed and polished... we still need to prep the brass and load it. Were gonna use varget powder. Any advice? thanks

here is the rifle:
2010-02-25171551.jpg
 
#27
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

6.5 Grendel with Shilen barrel will perform as a Precision Long Range AR15 for sure. I have one to prove it. Smaller caliber is good too but why not go a little bigger and have some more power down-range? Just a thought for ya...
 
#29
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TargetTerror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess my main question is which barrel length to get, and whether to consider any other manufacturers. Right now I'm leaning heavily towards the 24 incher - long enough to get some extra velocity from a 20 inch barrel, but <span style="font-weight: bold">without feeling and looking too long and cumbersome</span>.
Also, does anyone know what sort of <span style="font-weight: bold">ballistics to expect for a given load from a 20, 24,</span> and 26 inch barrel? How much (if anything) am I likely to gain with the extra 2 inches on a 26 incher? I'll mostly use 77 grain SMKs with Reloader 15 (per my service rifle load), though I'd probably play around with some of the heavier bullets too and other powders as appropriate. </div></div>
If you are concerned about it being long and cumbersome then don't go longer than 20.
As for the ballistics, I have a Douglass SS 8 twist. When it was 24 inches I used 23.9 grains of Varget pushing a 77 SMK and got 2730 fps.
I had it cut down to 20 inches and with that same load I lost about 100 fps. I switched my powder to Tac and using 24.3 grains the 77 SMK is going 2765 fps.
 
#30
Re: Talk to me about precision, long-range AR15s

20" barrels are great out to 600. Look at 24" & 26" out to 800 & 1000 yards.
1:8 twist will shoot up to 75gr A-max(or 77SMK which is actually shorter) under all elevations and temps.
1:7 is best for 80-90grain bullets but you may find some 80 gr bullets that shoot well out of a 1:8

Some recommend 1:6.5 twist for 90gr vlds. Personally I think 90gr is too much for a 223. 80gr single-loaders are probably the long-range sweet spot for the AR-15: but that is single shot only
 
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