Spotters Terrapin X vs Sig Kilo 8k

[verdugo60]

Yes, another vs thread, lol.

Looking for reviews/user experience on either, if you’ve owned or used both and can compare; even better.

Sig is smaller and has integrated ballistics which are both nice but I haven’t seen if the laser rangefinder is close to Kilo 10k performance.

Looking at this as a backup “pocket” rangefinder to RF binos. Not sure if there are good chest rig “side” pouches that will fit the bigger Terrapin X but I’m sure there’s something out there.

 

[Conqueror]

Sig has really upped their LRF game in last couple of years. The Terrapin X is 905nm and not 1550 like their better units so I’d personally probably go Sig since it has AB and is smaller.

 

[eno00wen]

For a first post, I was looking for something else, but this came up on a search, and has been part a side project. I was hoping to prepare a formal report but life happens. Take what I say carefully and be critical (it is the wild internet) but also I am on lunch on a cell phone and I am likely to confuse facts and have terrible grammar.
Attached data sheet shows 905 nm I think is in the NIR region (and again I think NIR can easily be seen with standard tube NVG). 1550 nm is more SWIR. There are atmosphere absorption issues, I think due to mostly H2O (one reason why lasers are not effective in real life like the movies), I guess 1550 nm is good? So there might be an optics material physical focusing thing needed to be change (optic profile). As I know time of flight sensors have come a long way, why lidar is so cheap now. The second file shows 2400bdx shows a good internal. So it has been a while but from the FCC docs, but if you look at the 2400abs origional, I think they were transmitting from the smaller bottom optic and receiving through the visual port. So the drive from 6x, 7x, 8x and the fact the main objective is bigger is to collect more light. So these are all proabaly time of flight sensors. I am having trouble finding fcc info for safran stuff right now. The 2400 system overview shows sig marketing department getting into technical stuff (i am making a joke but it tells us stuff worth following up on but not in a way you think; LightWave DSP, HyperScan, RangeLock.
i will comment on those thoes later as I hate typing on my phone.
But basically they proabaly exactly the same. The only big differences is sig sources stuff from hong kong, see 4th file 2400_id_label_1_asia (asia optical) and even if safran is sourcing stuff from asia slave shops, they proabaly pass through europe and generically stuff costs more due to their social policies. I know several guys from europe and look at their vacation and holiday list. I dont know about you but if you do not work you do not eat basic caveman ecomoics.
And lastly generically these companies exist mostly in these regions so in a total war scenario they can shut down your regional lego plant to make a major component or two. That is a lot of generic stuff and no proof; why a formal report takes so long but that is my take on it all
Also i lost count of my files, you all can figure it out.
I do have .tar archives of the the most useful fcc information. Fyi i got most the sig stuff from the fcc...
Hope you find this this helps get you thinking

 

[Conqueror]

Attached data sheet shows 905 nm I think is in the NIR region (and again I think NIR can easily be seen with standard tube NVG). 1550 nm is more SWIR. There are atmosphere absorption issues, I think due to mostly H2O (one reason why lasers are not effective in real life like the movies), I guess 1550 nm is good?

905nm lasers pass through the cornea into the retina and so the FDA limits the power of 905nm lasers sold to the public. 1550nm lasers cannot pass through the cornea and so the FDA doesn't restrict them in the same way, therefore they can run MUCH MUCH more powerful capacitor-driven laser bursts (IIRC on the order of like 100,000 watts in nanosecond pulses). This gives them substantially improved range and ranging performance. 905nm is also visible to night vision so the military isn't much interested in rangefinders that would give away your position to a near-peer in the dark. 1550nm laser systems are more expensive but are clearly superior if you have the coin, but neither system being discussed in this thread is a 1500nm-class product.

 

[eno00wen]

905nm lasers pass through the cornea into the retina and so the FDA limits the power of 905nm lasers sold to the public. 1550nm lasers cannot pass through the cornea and so the FDA doesn't restrict them in the same way, therefore they can run MUCH MUCH more powerful capacitor-driven laser bursts (IIRC on the order of like 100,000 watts in nanosecond pulses). This gives them substantially improved range and ranging performance. 905nm is also visible to night vision so the military isn't much interested in rangefinders that would give away your position to a near-peer in the dark. 1550nm laser systems are more expensive but are clearly superior if you have the coin, but neither system being discussed in this thread is a 1500nm-class product.

1) yes to driving lasers and in this case the laser diodes (and there are the surface diod lasers with a more uniform beam pattern). So lasers i have used were never pulsed and needed to be current and really thermally stable, aka current source them and leave them on for a bit to get out of power on thermal transient. They were used for nano meter precision on things like wafer step and repeat, and mask making machines for IC mems stuffs. Those used interferometry. And then basic time of flight for large scale position.
A) I was hoping an optrician would get on and explain the optics, and you can buy 1550 nm laser diods on digikey, i am interested to swap them out but don't have the money to break what i have
B) yes driving it (lets get sidetracked another day on modifying like a mawl driver outputs....aka has to have been tried somewhere need link if it exists), but follow data sheet for a pulsed diode laser should be easy mod, if you can open them, I do not have enough money to break what I have
2) laser safety, i have never certified products in this area and sticking with USA FDA, what I have read and understand if you certify a laser focal point at 9 miles it can not be above xx W/some area(I forgot what that is). If you certify it at 3" you have to keep the upper bound. I do not think they care if it is out of the visible spectrum (905nm is...pretty sure) because your cornia is so small laying that much energy will burn it up, uv or lwir, or microwave. You can feel LWIR on your skin so imaging that focused on your eye optic parts, smell something? I think that is partly how sig is selling all the new bdx for 6k, 8k, 10k or whatever they have. Also highly likely might be a software limitation (I hate that, and you will not change my mind, long live Basler and SEL, down with Siemens) but please I need to know more about FDA laser approval
I think there is factory focusing based on the glue on the diode for that reason. Also, i forgot i can see it flashing on my phone camera :/ so how I described above is how they work 99% sure
So I do not think there is much of an advantage at the 1550, it is longer wave length so it should pass through "stuff" easier like hf compared with uhf radio stuffs

3) Also after looking i am 99% sure sig's stuff is all re-branded Asian Optical....another FCC gift see attached


So still I think they are identical units with no major difference....now if we change and drive more intense lasers and or adjust the focal point some....we would have the 30k type units for the real cost of 1k, ok a little exaggeration but thank you uncle sam for paying my high salary by inflating the cost of defense things for your spoiled selves and friends at raytheon and boeing and the rest and paying for it by driving inflation for all the peasants to stay in dept until the second coming...that is off topic

 

[Conqueror]

Bruh there’s like a single period in that wall of text I can’t read that shit. But it appears you think it is as easy as swapping the 905nm laser diode for a 1550 from Digikey in which case I do not think you remotely have the engineering know-how to do this and it also seems likely you will electrocute yourself with a bigass capacitor.

 

[eno00wen]

Bruh there’s like a single period in that wall of text I can’t read that shit. But it appears you think it is as easy as swapping the 905nm laser diode for a 1550 from Digikey in which case I do not think you remotely have the engineering know-how to do this and it also seems likely you will electrocute yourself with a bigass capacitor.

1) yep I would not want my worst enemy to read that but that is what I get for typing on a cell phone in a hurry
2) power supplies and driving lasers are not about big capacitors, I work with design and install of these high energy systems all the time....it is my day job as a matter of fact.

3) i still hypothisise that all of these smaller units are the same, even a unit like PLRF25C only gains a slight advantage with distance for a given energy level by less atmosphere absorption due to wave length. And the only real costs difference might be some optic parts.
I look for someone to provide more detailed system information, I know I would like to be more informed.
You all expect too little information from a vendor to make an informed product comparison. It is a social issue I think, what consumers want and companies claiming intellectual property rights over every speck of dust and not sharing anything. It has made us all worse off, that is consumers and market retailers.

 

[Conqueror]

Lol okey doke, then I invite you to convert a cheap Sig Kilo 1000 to a PLRF25 with a laser diode from digikey and prove me wrong.

 

[eno00wen]

Lol okey doke, then I invite you to convert a cheap Sig Kilo 1000 to a PLRF25 with a laser diode from digikey and prove me wrong.

Sorry, I think you are confused, I am asking the same question as you. Well one of my questions is about the diodes but not limited to that. I will not move until I have more of thoes questions we both raised answered. I do not have time to figure all this out, that is why I thought I would reach out to this community.

This is way off topic, and to answer the main question again, as crudely shown technically I think all of these time of flight sensors are evenly compared with each other and any difference in performance is qualitative.

 

[eno00wen]

Sorry, I think you are confused, I am asking the same question as you. Well one of my questions is about the diodes but not limited to that. I will not move until I have more of thoes questions we both raised answered. I do not have time to figure all this out, that is why I thought I would reach out to this community.

This is way off topic, and to answer the main question again, as crudely shown technically I think all of these time of flight sensors are evenly compared with each other and any difference in performance is qualitative.

see this guide, so I was wrong about some of the atmosphere effects,

Velodyne's Guide to Lidar Wavelengths | Velodyne Lidar

An overview of lidar wavelengths, including a comparison of 905 nm vs 1550 nm lidar when considering safety, water absorption, and components

velodynelidar.com

Of the image for a fast read.
I will review the kilo2400 fcc schematics and data sheets about driving their laser diode. I have a working unit, I would like not to destroy, and a similar generation unit for $250 used at the local store. That will cut into monthy defense budget (aka bullets) and that is sad, I could use it as a sacrificial teardown, unless someone has a broken unit to share. Getting one of sig's hi end models, they should yeild the same series of laser diodes as these are not updated like nvidia gpu's

 

[verdugo60]

see this guide, so I was wrong about some of the atmosphere effects,

Velodyne's Guide to Lidar Wavelengths | Velodyne Lidar

An overview of lidar wavelengths, including a comparison of 905 nm vs 1550 nm lidar when considering safety, water absorption, and components

velodynelidar.com

Of the image for a fast read.
I will review the kilo2400 fcc schematics and data sheets about driving their laser diode. I have a working unit, I would like not to destroy, and a similar generation unit for $250 used at the local store. That will cut into monthy defense budget (aka bullets) and that is sad, I could use it as a sacrificial teardown, unless someone has a broken unit to share. Getting one of sig's hi end models, they should yeild the same series of laser diodes as these are not updated like nvidia gpu's

So glad you chose my thread to enlighten us with random data sheets. We're much more interested in practical applications here than this type of thing, FYI. Not trying to be rude but this is not the purpose of this thread and most shooters aren't going to get anything from this. Lasers are interesting with what they allow me to do: find a range to hit the thing with a bullet.

 

[eno00wen]

So glad you chose my thread to enlighten us with random data sheets. We're much more interested in practical applications here than this type of thing, FYI. Not trying to be rude but this is not the purpose of this thread and most shooters aren't going to get anything from this. Lasers are interesting with what they allow me to do: find a range to hit the thing with a bullet.

your right, this is too far off for this topic. I did consider this before I posted it, but I did not. I will go back to my cave. Post something later on a new thread.

 

[verdugo60]

your right, this is too far off for this topic. I did consider this before I posted it, but I did not. I will go back to my cave. Post something later on a new thread.

It can be a rude awakening commenting on a forum, especially one like this where punches are not often pulled and people can be harsh. Thanks for trying to help, don't quit the forum over this, just wanted to give a heads up since I started the thread.

 

[verdugo60]

As far as the original topic, I ended up with the Sig Kilo 8K for now to try out, going to use it as a backup to bino's in NRL and for hunting. The glass is not great, the blue tint is there but the display and laster seem pretty darn good.

Played with it a little at a long range course this week. It was a field style training course, finding and ranging targets on the clock. I had a pair of Leica HD-B's for finding and ranging targets as my primary bino's, I'm not sure I would trust the Kilo 8K as a spotting or "finding" device. I'm using it more as a backup or possibly for when I really need help ranging a sky-lined plate, etc. We'll see how it works in that role.

I know Phil Vellejo had used his Terrapin X primarily a season or two ago for NRL Hunter per one of his videos, maybe he's better at finding targets than me (probably) but I like a good set of bino's for that role.

 

[Jumper]

I read BigJimFish's review on the 10k. Sig is using a version of the 905nm class I laser to get their advertised range. It was class 1m IIRC. There's different FDA standards for it that let's SIG bump up the power a little. The 8k might have the same laser if it's getting returns from 8000 yds. Or they've really improved their software. Probably both.

@eno00wen thanks for the deep tech dive into the laser abyss. Might have been a little off topic but it was interesting nonetheless. Also welcome to The Hide.

 

[eno00wen]

It can be a rude awakening commenting on a forum, especially one like this where punches are not often pulled and people can be harsh. Thanks for trying to help, don't quit the forum over this, just wanted to give a heads up since I started the thread.

No I am not leaving. As you can see if I do not have a focused "report" it becomes a scattered rant. But I will be quite for a bit. You all are cool, like Catholic Nuns compared to some people I am work around. I never got into facebook or most of this stuff. Emails lists and irc groups from time to time to parasite from others' work, I never got into this idea of a remote community to assist with projects, I am branching out. My cave is what my wife calls my shed /garage and endless hours tinkering, you all are proably in the same bin. And best of all when I talk about modifying a laser outside of FDA sticker to use with a weapon system you all don't feel the need to the spaz out like other forums. I have not tested this but I can guess.
As one of you pointed out maybe there is a better notch filter on the other brand and maybe it does help you spot better. We do see color for some reason. I am an engineer, not a civil engineer. Do they even count ? I endlessly debate stuff and pick it apart long after something is good enough.

 

[Jumper]

Here's a project for you @eno00wen; a weapon mounted laser rangefinder that costs less than ~$8000. That I know of there are only 2 with a 1500nM laser. The Wilcox RAPTAR and the Envision Technologies MARS Lc. The MARS is a recent option due out this summer. The RAPTAR has been around awhile. It doesnt seem like there's any bleeding edge technology in either of them. Just a laser rangefinder (a damn good one) with a ballistic computer in a ruggedized package. I know, rugged and reliable isnt easy to pull off a lot of times. But FFS, it should be easily doable for a lot less than $8k. And a weapon mounted LRF is a game changer. Not sure why they cost so much.

 

[eno00wen]

Here's a project for you @eno00wen; a weapon mounted laser rangefinder that costs less than ~$8000. That I know of there are only 2 with a 1500nM laser. The Wilcox RAPTAR and the Envision Technologies MARS Lc. The MARS is a recent option due out this summer. The RAPTAR has been around awhile. It doesnt seem like there's any bleeding edge technology in either of them. Just a laser rangefinder (a damn good one) with a ballistic computer in a ruggedized package. I know, rugged and reliable isnt easy to pull off a lot of times. But FFS, it should be easily doable for a lot less than $8k. And a weapon mounted LRF is a game changer. Not sure why they cost so much.

I typed something lost it.....i started a thread for part of this to discuss it, also generally i have never seen small batch stuff be cheaper than cots stuff.
The real point is knowing the main design points and then push vendors to where you want stuff. It is always a balance.
I know of now small scale mechanical solver, so with the electric stuff I have no background with rugged pcb design (another topic that needs linked to). anyway talking and the internet. This is all a trial run for me and doing a project.

 

[Milf Dots]

The Safran Vectronix PLRF25 series appears to be the gold standard for handheld LRF- it's just a shame they're about $10,000 and not $4,995. The Vectronix Terrapin X keeps landing in the top spot for 905nm LRFs- regardless of how much research I do on the intra-netz.

Maybe Frank @Lowlight can put together a Vectronix PLRF 15 group buy for under $5,000! I know the PLRF 10 and 15 are discontinued, but perhaps Frank can talk Vectronix into a group deal...

 

[Maurygold]

I was shooting on Father's Day weekend to 2300 yards of steel at Arena Training. My sig Kilo 5K outperformed my dad's Terrapin X. Both units worked flawlessly to 1250 yards, beyond that the sig started to perform better on picking up the steel targets. We regularly shoot 1k yards and never see any performance difference at that kind of range but I was surprised the sig edged out the terrapin at that kind of range.

 

[GBMaryland]

You're better off getting a Sig10K, as they have fantastic features and work better than most devices out there.

I have a NG Mark VII LRF and it can outrange the Sig10K in certain types of atmospheric conditions, but the 10K is a better overall unit.

The 10k is also an improvement on the Vectronix Terrapin X laser, so expect to see that in more systems as time goes on.

 

[Milf Dots]

Question for those who know for an absolute fact: of the two numbers in a beam divergence spec- is either number more important to performance, and if so, which number, the first or second?

For example:
beam divergence of 1.2 x .5 Mil
OR
beam divergence of 1.5 x .06 MRad

 

[Milf Dots]

I've moved over to this almost identical thread:

Range Finder & Binoculars

I’m new to long range shooting and wanting to buy a rangefinder. Also considering binoculars with a built in rangefinder. Is it better to have a separate rangefinder and binoculars or are the combined units just as good? Looking at either a Leica or Sig as far as rangefinders go unless there are...

www.snipershide.com

 

[GBMaryland]

Quick guide on laser beam divergence measurement

What is laser beam divergence? How do you measure it? What’s the formula? How do you control the laser beam divergence? Get answers to all these questions.

www.gentec-eo.com

 

[Lowlight]

I know you moved this, but the beam divergence is a thing and at the time the Terrapin X was the king of the hill. Time has passed since then and once 1 company steps up the rest follow.

Most of the updates for the Terrapin X were communications vs power, there hasn’t been a new Gen version like the others.

The other guys race out new versions all the time improving models. The Terrapin competed with the Sig 2400AB how many new models replaced that, at least 4 maybe 6

That’s part of the bitch, new models making other models outdated.

The 10k are very good. And I like the detail in the display, they range well and you can adjust the aiming of the beam which is great for OLED Reticles as they rarely align like the etched ones do.

For reference, I tell people it a $1 a yard if you want to do it right. So to use all the advertised range, if the price isn’t a $1 a yard, it’s probably only going to the limit if the cost. Sig seems to be the best exception to cost currently available.

 

[Conqueror]

Best deals in ranging are still used military-grade hardware when you can find it. The values plummet after Uncle Sam is done with them. As long as you don’t need a warranty you can find some badass 10yo LRFs for a few grand that still work fine and would cost you $15k from Vectronix today.

 

[Milf Dots]

Best deals in ranging are still used military-grade hardware when you can find it. The values plummet after Uncle Sam is done with them. As long as you don’t need a warranty you can find some badass 10yo LRFs for a few grand that still work fine and would cost you $15k from Vectronix today.

Where are they sold ?? Thnx

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Guys flip them. But its a huge risk. You could be buying a brick or something that is about to become a brick.

Go read up on the history of vectronix and how they handled all the civlians who bought PLRF and the OG Terrapin.

I would never buy an older un warranted/supported unit unless it was dirt cheap. The commerical units are good to about 3k, and if you need more ALA ELR, then you can afford to buy a new $10K+ unit.