The “Vigilance V440” – a new ELR cartridge

[ELR researcher]

The “Vigilance V440” – a new ELR cartridge

Keary Ritchie, owner of Vigilance Rifles (AZ), has just launched a new ELR cartridge, the “badass” Vigilance V440. Based on standard .50 BMG brass, it is a simple neck down to .440 caliber. He is offering it as an option for his Windrunner M18 rifle. See the comparo pic (left to right, .50 BMG, Vigilance V440, .416 Barrett, and .408 Cheytac). Second pic is the Manson chamber reamer drawing. He also has a two minute video on YouTube -

Obvious question, why .440 caliber (.430 bore/.440 grove)? “.440 diameter is big enough not to have too much burn out / throat erosion...also every other cartridge had a name on it already, and this one was available to promote our Vigilance brand.” And, since his Windrunner M18 rifle is typically sold in .50 BMG, having a cartridge that works well in a .50 BMG magazine is a big advantage (same COAL) – see near the end of the video.

Another obvious question, where can prospective customers get .440 caliber, ELR-appropriate bullets? Through Vigilance, of course – currently the only source, though Keary expects others will produce them over time. Vigilance has invested in a Swiss type, CNC lathe and high end bar feeder to service demand. Of note, these bullets are solid Tellurium copper and have a rebated boat tail. At 600 grains they exit the Windrunner M18’s 36” (1:13 twist) barrel at 3125 fps (JBM supersonic to about 3050 yards based on an estimated 1.1 BC). Keary claims 5-shot, .250 MOA groups at 100 yards after fire forming (.625 MOA during fire forming); 17.5 MOA drop at 1000 yards from a 100 yard zero. A V440-dedicated page is in works for the Vigilance website (https://www.vigilancerifles.co/v440-long-range). [Vigilance will also be offering the same bullet design, and material, in .338, .375, .408, .416, .460, and, of course, .50 caliber. Availability TBD.]

While Vigilance will not offer reamers, they will offer dies (at least the sizer). As noted in the video, single-stroke, one-step sizing of .50 BMG brass, trim the length a bit after first firing (fire forming). Per Keary, “There is no pressure issue, bolt opens with one hand. No primer pocket expansion, very re-loadable brass, I'd say 8 times EZ.” Properly headstampted brass is also in the works. For those not interested in reloading, they will also offer loaded ammo.

Final note, seems very reasonable to expect that Vigilance will offer V440 re-barrels for Windrunner M96 owners. [“…(there are) over 3600 Windrunners out there that can all take the V440.”]

Close for now. Watch the V440 page (link above) for more info.

 

[Yerman]

meh

 

[Steel head]

440 magnum!

 

[phlegethon]

Advantage over 460 Steyr?

 

[AIAW]

Not offering reamers for a cartridge you developed equals a dead wildcat cartridge, right out of the gate.

Things are quite different now that Bill is gone, that’s for sure...

 

[kthomas]

Not offering reamers for a cartridge you developed equals a dead wildcat cartridge, right out of the gate.

Things are quite different now that Bill is gone, that’s for sure...

Agreed.

Probably a tactic to divert sales/builds his way, but I think it's going to end up with this cartridge falling flat on its face and us never hearing about it again.

 

[Steel head]

Not offering reamers for a cartridge you developed equals a dead wildcat cartridge, right out of the gate.

Things are quite different now that Bill is gone, that’s for sure...

WTF?

That’s dumb!

 

[badassgunworks]

The biggest problem I see is not that its propriatory but that its based on the use of a bmg case. At some point in time people are going to figure out its time to let the 100 plus year old cartridge fade away might as well build a wildcat on a 30-30 or a 45-70 case

 

[phlegethon]

The biggest problem I see is not that its propriatory but that its based on the use of a bmg case. At some point in time people are going to figure out its time to let the 100 plus year old cartridge fade away might as well build a wildcat on a 30-30 or a 45-70 case

And yet the dominant cartridges in ELR are based on the BMG (416 Barrett, 460 Steyr). I guess there is always the cheytacs, based on the even older 505 Gibbs.

What innovation in case head design would you like to see in your new cartridge? Because most of the innovation seems to be in bullets and the geometry of the neck/shoulder/wall. You can do all of that with the BMG.

 

[badassgunworks]

And yet the dominant cartridges in ELR are based on the BMG (416 Barrett, 460 Steyr). I guess there is always the cheytacs, based on the even older 505 Gibbs.

What innovation in case head design would you like to see in your new cartridge? Because most of the innovation seems to be in bullets and the geometry of the neck/shoulder/wall. You can do all of that with the BMG.

The dominant cartridge in elr is the 416 Barrett last year yes. And at least here in the USA the 460 has wone nothing that I know of . High velocity heavy accurate high bc proofs impact splash that just happens currently be the bmg based case . No matter what you do geometry shoulder wall and neck is useless if pressure limits are dictated by case head pressure limits by design. Sharper shoulder More pressure more problems . straighter side walls. More case head pressure but helps with bolt thrust but Creates more extraction problems . Straighten side walls and sharper shoulders increases capacity to a case that more capacity only causes more Problems like Sd problems and if necked down Causes a case fill problem . The bmg case is only viable due to Its size not cause it’s good or advanced in short it’s obsolete . Elr needs a face lift from the ground up. cartridges , action and bullets

 

[badassgunworks]

As far as the cheytac it’s only loosely based on the weaker 505 Gibbs case Any more than the ultra mag is on the 404 Jeffrey’s case

 

[phlegethon]

The dominant cartridge in elr is the 416 Barrett last year yes. And at least here in the USA the 460 has wone nothing that I know of . High velocity heavy accurate high bc proofs impact splash that just happens currently be the bmg based case . No matter what you do geometry shoulder wall and neck is useless if pressure limits are dictated by case head pressure limits by design. Sharper shoulder More pressure more problems . straighter side walls. More case head pressure but helps with bolt thrust but Creates more extraction problems . Straighten side walls and sharper shoulders increases capacity to a case that more capacity only causes more Problems like Sd problems and if necked down Causes a case fill problem . The bmg case is only viable due to Its size not cause it’s good or advanced in short it’s obsolete . Elr needs a face lift from the ground up. cartridges , action and bullets

So what cartridge is not obsolete and doesn’t suffer from these problems? It sounds like you are complaining not about the BMG case but simply brass smokeless powder designs in general. If there were anything better out there I’d agree with you, but I haven’t seen it yet.

edit: this has to be something actually shipping or even just independently tested, so whatever @THEIS is cooking up doesn’t yet count.

 

[badassgunworks]

So what cartridge is not obsolete and doesn’t suffer from these problems? It sounds like you are complaining not about the BMG case but simply brass smokeless powder designs in general. If there were anything better out there I’d agree with you, but I haven’t seen it yet.

edit: this has to be something actually shipping or even just independently tested, so whatever @THEIS is cooking up doesn’t yet count.

Some designs in general yes. But not all cartridges are equal. Take for example the 6mm ppc. or the 338 lapua or the cheytac all if them can be run at much higher pressures with no issues then saami limits. Some of it is design some is who made the brass. Another example out side of the box is the new 300 prc or lapua improved brass made from Rcc the Hornady Prc 4 shots at high density loads where the Rcc 20 plus shots at even higher velocity. There are several ways to obtain greater performance but the desire to greatness must be desired and targeted. simply doing a modified virsion of a obsolete design will gain but is only good as the base line in what you used. Here is some example of what we are doing and yes I am working with Theis to devlope his own designs. for his end results. In the photo The cartridge on the lt is the 338 lapua 2nd from lt is the 375 Mercenary revised from the failure from a unnamed cartridge manufactor . 3rd is the 400 warlord also comes in 416 4th the 420 Blitzkrieg also in 416 known as the 416 Destroyer. 5th 408 colossu

s also comes in 416 known as the 416 colossus. 6th 458 Goliath . and last is the bmg case . and there are many other cartridges not listed and many others in the works

 

[phlegethon]

Some designs in general yes. But not all cartridges are equal. Take for example the 6mm ppc. or the 338 lapua or the cheytac all if them can be run at much higher pressures with no issues then saami limits. Some of it is design some is who made the brass. Another example out side of the box is the new 300 prc or lapua improved brass made from Rcc the Hornady Prc 4 shots at high density loads where the Rcc 20 plus shots at even higher velocity. There are several ways to obtain greater performance but the desire to greatness must be desired and targeted. simply doing a modified virsion of a obsolete design will gain but is only good as the base line in what you used. Here is some example of what we are doing and yes I am working with Theis to devlope his own designs. for his end results. In the photo The cartridge on the lt is the 338 lapua 2nd from lt is the 375 Mercenary revised from the failure from a unnamed cartridge manufactor . 3rd is the 400 warlord also comes in 416 4th the 420 Blitzkrieg also in 416 known as the 416 Destroyer. 5th 408 colossuView attachment 7191436s also comes in 416 known as the 416 colossus. 6th 458 Goliath . and last is the bmg case . and there are many other cartridges not listed and many others in the works View attachment 7191436

So this all sounds like your complaint is that modern firearms technology isn’t advancing fast enough. The 6PPC cartridges are pretty small and are generally run by benchrest shooters who are expert reloaders and DGAF about margin of safety. I’m aware of no evidence that 338 Lapua or 375 Cheytac can be safely run at much higher pressures—just because people are doing it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

So yes, I agree, if there were a breakthrough in cartridge design It would be helpful for ELR. But that’s not the same as saying that all cartridges based on 50 BMG suck. The same argument can be made that 6 Dasher, 300 WSM, and 6.5 Creedmoor suck, for example. You can’t say that something is obsolete because it doesn’t use technology that hasn’t really been developed yet.

 

[badassgunworks]

So this all sounds like your complaint is that modern firearms technology isn’t advancing fast enough. The 6PPC cartridges are pretty small and are generally run by benchrest shooters who are expert reloaders and DGAF about margin of safety. I’m aware of no evidence that 338 Lapua or 375 Cheytac can be safely run at much higher pressures—just because people are doing it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

So yes, I agree, if there were a breakthrough in cartridge design It would be helpful for ELR. But that’s not the same as saying that all cartridges based on 50 BMG suck. The same argument can be made that 6 Dasher, 300 WSM, and 6.5 Creedmoor suck, for example. You can’t say that something is obsolete because it doesn’t use technology that hasn’t really been developed yet.

I enjoy conversations like this when their civil as much can be learned from them when ears and hearts and minds are open. As far as the ppc in benchtest psi is psi at 70,000plus psi Guys are shooting their brass 30 plus shots as I am one of them and it’s super Safe of not you would not have the case life. Several reasons why it works the way it does. 1 the tennon in relation to case OD 2 Quality brass and a small primer 3 tight chamber . all allow for a higher pressure allowance. You are correct the industry is not advancing fast enough and one of the reasons is being satisfied with what is feed to us by the mass marketing industry. It is the desire to excell that drives the industry . Not being satisfied what your being feed . If you look at the lapua for example it was beefed up beyond the original 416 rigby glorified black powder design so was the cheytac. granted there is less difference between current made rigby Jeffrey’s and Gibbs cause current manufactoring is now made to those new standards. Saami is simply a way of standardizing basic design not a ruler for true measurement. But some live and die by wiki information as well. I never said bmg sucks just that it’s obsolete and it is. Could the basic OD Demintions be used in a upgrade of case head and ID yes but why when it was never designed for accuracy or performance. Just a lead slinging hard hitting automatic weapon cartridge If your going to go to the trouble of re working it just scratch the old design and start over from the ground up. Is that sac religious to the John m browning menions that are stuck in the nastalgic past ? perhaps.... We are only limited by the lack of desire to excell in the late 1800’s to the early 1900’s there were those who would not give up their horse. There is a lot more to development in performance then just the cartridge as you stated earlier but it must start somewhere.

 

[phlegethon]

I enjoy conversations like this when their civil as much can be learned from them when ears and hearts and minds are open. As far as the ppc in benchtest psi is psi at 70,000plus psi Guys are shooting their brass 30 plus shots as I am one of them and it’s super Safe of not you would not have the case life. Several reasons why it works the way it does. 1 the tennon in relation to case OD 2 Quality brass and a small primer 3 tight chamber . all allow for a higher pressure allowance. You are correct the industry is not advancing fast enough and one of the reasons is being satisfied with what is feed to us by the mass marketing industry. It is the desire to excell that drives the industry . Not being satisfied what your being feed . If you look at the lapua for example it was beefed up beyond the original 416 rigby glorified black powder design so was the cheytac. granted there is less difference between current made rigby Jeffrey’s and Gibbs cause current manufactoring is now made to those new standards. Saami is simply a way of standardizing basic design not a ruler for true measurement. But some live and die by wiki information as well. I never said bmg sucks just that it’s obsolete and it is. Could the basic OD Demintions be used in a upgrade of case head and ID yes but why when it was never designed for accuracy or performance. Just a lead slinging hard hitting automatic weapon cartridge If your going to go to the trouble of re working it just scratch the old design and start over from the ground up. Is that sac religious to the John m browning menions that are stuck in the nastalgic past ? perhaps.... We are only limited by the lack of desire to excell in the late 1800’s to the early 1900’s there were those who would not give up their horse. There is a lot more to development in performance then just the cartridge as you stated earlier but it must start somewhere.

It seems like part of what you are talking about is the ratio of brass thickness to case volume. I wonder if there is any pattern there relating to performance.

 

[badassgunworks]

It seems like part of what you are talking about is the ratio of brass thickness to case volume. I wonder if there is any pattern there relating to performance.

Well where the material is in the case will change at what pressures you can run the brass and if it causes other problems like extraction and or pressure signs in primer but there is a lot more to performance than just case size or millage like type of alloy. Size of material in case head in relation to primer size. Case corner radius And flash hole size and powder column design Toward or backwards taper to column or straight Changes where pressure is directed You can also have the best design in the world and never see it if chamber is too loose or action and tennon size is not correct. case volume is useless if you can’t use it .That can cause a case fill to pressure problem in operation cause ignition issue Perfect example was the 375 visero mag Failed by poor design not case size or primer side. Needed more powder to eliminate ignition problem but when you added more powder it caused extraction problems It was a simple fix. But the cartridge died in marketing Due to lack of interest no money or local of understanding how to fix the problem

 

[badassgunworks]

Some people thought slower powder was needed and perhaps that would of helped but the main problem with the visero mag was not enough to taper if more taper was added it would have added more taper to the column inside the case helping extraction and re funneling more pressure to to front of the case away from the case head balancing out added bolt thrust added by exterior taper

 

[phlegethon]

Some people thought slower powder was needed and perhaps that would of helped but the main problem with the visero mag was not enough to taper if more taper was added it would have added more taper to the column inside the case helping extraction and re funneling more pressure to to front of the case away from the case head balancing out added bolt thrust added by exterior taper

Interesting, I hadn’t heard of this cartridge. See, that’s what happens when you start with a new design instead of the tried and true obsolete cases like 50 BMG or 220 Russian

 

[badassgunworks]

Interesting, I hadn’t heard of this cartridge. See, that’s what happens when you start with a new design instead of the tried and true obsolete cases like 50 BMG or 220 Russian

The 375 and the 416 visero mag was built if the old well known 585 African case done by Dave viers many years ago

 

[badassgunworks]

The 375 and the 416 visero mag was built if the old well known 585 African case done by Dave viers many years ago

Plus it takes us old wildcatters failures to realize when and where quality time is focus is spent it’s all a learning experance

 

[phlegethon]

Plus it takes us old wildcatters failures to realize when and where quality time is focus is spent it’s all a learning experance

I was kidding! I do wonder, is any of this stuff written down anywhere? Are there books on cartridge design? Is anyone rigorously testing these things? Do we know, for example, why the 6 BR family and 300 WSM seem to have such inherent accuracy, and if it’s the geometry then why hasn’t anyone built something similar for 375 or 400 bullets?

 

[badassgunworks]

I was kidding! I do wonder, is any of this stuff written down anywhere? Are there books on cartridge design? Is anyone rigorously testing these things? Do we know, for example, why the 6 BR family and 300 WSM seem to have such inherent accuracy, and if it’s the geometry then why hasn’t anyone built something similar for 375 or 400 bullets?

In short no it’s not that I know of written down some have spoken on it in writings but I can tell you this much the wider columns burn powder more even and thus more accurate they will also require less powder to produce more energy and velocity proven in every cartridge that had close to a equil in capacity in a shorter wider column Those are facts. Proven over and over again As powder ignites threw flash holes if it can burn a larger % of powder of the over all capacity by burning out and forward vrs down a long narrow column that is obviously more efficient. not rocket science. Guys like my self gain from doing vrs reading 90 % of my knowledge is experance in suscess and failures with a little understanding of cartridge dynamics In turn creates lots of knowledge over time. In the past 10 years I have focused lots of my time on understand why Thing work as they do and how to improve it

 

[badassgunworks]

As to why not in the larger calibers . available parents is clearly obvious and the expense of needed equipment needed to run them and with that expense fear of failure.. ignorance of diminish no return comments . And over all limitations of Available parents and platforms. Ignorance comments of burn rates etc. it’s simple if you don’t have slow enough powder For the capacity and restriction of the case you are using you reduce the capacity or raise the operating pressures Raising the operating pressure limits for some is just crazy talk due to fear of barrel life and Un quantified alloy properties but if you ask me that’s crazy talk allowing fear of great reward to be limited by ones wallet

 

[ELR researcher]

Interesting, I hadn’t heard of this cartridge. See, that’s what happens when you start with a new design instead of the tried and true obsolete cases like 50 BMG or 220 Russian

Dave Viers’ cartridges included:

.375 SnipeTac:
http://www.municion.org/375/375SnipeTac.htm
https://www.elr-resources.com/wpimages/wp63490625_06.png

.375 Viersco Magnum (VM and VM2):
https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25414
http://www.municion.org/375/375VierscoLongNeck.htm

.416 Viersco Magnum:
http://www.municion.org/41/416VierscoMagnum.htm

Black Diamond/Viersco stopped producing rifles and dies based on his designs about 4-5 years ago (2014/15).

 

[badassgunworks]

Dave Viers’ cartridges included:

.375 SnipeTac:
http://www.municion.org/375/375SnipeTac.htm
https://www.elr-resources.com/wpimages/wp63490625_06.png

.375 Viersco Magnum (VM and VM2):
https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25414
http://www.municion.org/375/375VierscoLongNeck.htm

.416 Viersco Magnum:
http://www.municion.org/41/416VierscoMagnum.htm

Black Diamond/Viersco stopped producing rifles and dies based on his designs about 4-5 years ago (2014/15).

thanks Oscar it can still be formed off the 585 African case from Bertram and or some one could have rcc make it as well the king cobra is close to the viersco mag as well .