Gunsmithing The "ideal" barrel contour

[mdesign]

My son wants to build a hunting rifle in either a 7-08 or 280 and the question is, what barrel contour (weight) strikes the best balance between accuracy and portability as most hunting guns are carried more than shot.

He would like the finished weight (including scope/mts)to be about 9.5 lbs. Barrel length will not exceed 22" and might only be 20" if he goes with the 7-08.

We are currently looking at the #5 contour but are interested in what experiences others have had.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

Heavy barrels are designed to withstand the heat of repeated firings without deflecting so that you can shoot 10,20,30 rds in a row without a shift in POI. A hunting rifle is fired once for accuracy, it's more about the quality of the chamber and bore than the profile in that case.

However most of the weight savings of the thinner barrels is out in the 22-26" range. You just don't save THAT much in the first 18 inches because so much of the weight is in the shank and taper, maybe a few ounces +/- but nothing serious. Go to www.pac-nor.com and play around with their barrel weight calculator and you can see.

Personally I'd say get a Sendero contour and cut it down to 20" and he'll have a relatively light weight woods gun that is still capable of posting a group should he want to play with it in the off season.

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

As ratbert said dont put a thin barrel on it. A 18 or 20" sendaro or larger contour like what you are thinking is the smallest i would go with it. No reason to try to shave weight on a short barrel because you just wont take that much off of it. Even a larger barrel thats fluted should be light enough for what your doing.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

I like the Sendero contour. I think Ratebert is spot on. A LTR is a pretty light rifle with the 20" barrel when you don't load it down with rails, bipods and monster optics.

You can shoot it all day with no POI shift.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

My suggestion is to go with a pretty standard factory hunter in the chosen chambering.

It will acquaint you with the basic performance and handling of the specific rifle type, serve as a basis for choosing the features of the rifle you want to build, while remaining a very saleable item once the build is complete. Also, no waiting while the build is in progress, just a more reasonable expectation of improvement.

Actually, the Remington Model 770 is a rifle I recommend to a lot of beginners, mainly because it's adequate to the task while not costing personal appendages. Basic is as basic does.

I have little doubt that your Son's capabilities exceed the performance of the 770, but I suggest it as an object lesson that the basic implement has become well evolved, and that the facory producers have a handle on how to provide such implements with maximum efficiency and economy.

My own primary C/F Hunter is a post-'64 Win Mod 70 with a 22" hunter weight barrel, a very lightweight B&C Realtree Camo stock, chambered in .30-'06. Weighs in well, probably several pounds, less than ten pounds. I forget exacty, either 6 1/2lb or 8 1/2lb. If I really need to find out, I can borrow my Daughter's baby scale.

As to capabilities of such rifles, mine took 3rd place in the 1997 NJ State Sniper Championships at Cherry Ridge, using plain old Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match factory ammo.

For shooting a very small volume of fire, I think the 'ideal' barrel contour has rather more to do with ergonomics and portability than it does with accuracy. I got extremely lucky with the performance of my Winnie with factory ammo, but by and large, hunting accuracy is not commonly associated with the same criteria as match accuracy. A good workman can make excellent use of a precision tool, and do mighty fine with a more average implement as well. I'm rooting for you guys, and hope your project rolls sevens day in and day out.

Greg

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the Sendero contour. I think Ratebert is spot on. A LTR is a pretty light rifle with the 20" barrel when you don't load it down with rails, bipods and monster optics.

You can shoot it all day with no POI shift. </div></div>

+1...

My older son-in-law has a stainless Sendero in 25-06 for hunting and loves it. I'm a little jealous as his is stainless and mine isn't. His is almost 5 pounds lighter than mine. But he has bad shoulders on both sides. So I don't ride him too much.

 

[mdesign]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

What is the Sendero contour like for size, a number 5 or 6 contour?

Greg - I agree....the project will most likely be built out of an old 700 action and Leupold scope that I have. I thought if we watched for deals and sent carefully we could build a gun he could use forever without breaking the bank.

He's shot all my customs but does not like the heavy M24 contours.

 

[mdesign]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...A LTR is a pretty light rifle with the 20" barrel when you don't load it down with rails, bipods and monster optics....</div></div>

What does LTR stand for?

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the Sendero contour like for size, a number 5 or 6 contour?

Greg - I agree....the project will most likely be built out of an old 700 action and Leupold scope that I have. I thought if we watched for deals and sent carefully we could build a gun he could use forever without breaking the bank.

He's shot all my customs but does not like the heavy M24 contours. </div></div>

Depends on whos contours your are looking at. I would say you want a double taper that finishes .85" at the muzzle. I see that a #5 should be close to .875". So either would work just fine. I see some contours that are a #5 are 1.2" and some are 1.25". Just gotta be careful because everyone uses a different number system. Trust me its real confusing and my contour folder is about 60 pages thick with all sorts of different crap in their.

After checking in douglas and shilen a #5 is this. 1.2 at breach for 3" then taper to .91 then it finished .7" at muzzle. Think you better go for a #6 or just get a sendaro. Some #6's are straight tapers.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...A LTR is a pretty light rifle with the 20" barrel when you don't load it down with rails, bipods and monster optics....</div></div>

What does LTR stand for? </div></div>

Light Tactical Rifle

 

[Falar]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

Anyone have any experience with a Medium Palma contour? Just looking at the drawings it looks like a nice balance between rigidity vs weight. I might do one for a new '06 project.

 

[scotharr]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

A light palma contour will give you a rifle that weighs less than 10 lbs. Medium Palma add 1.5 lbs I believe.

 

[Mike]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

What's "ideal" and what's "best" are completely relevant terms. All the advice in the world is not going to give you the answer that only experience can dole out. Try to find shooters in your area, see what they have and get the feel for something that is comfortable. There is no right/wrong answer here.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A light palma contour will give you a rifle that weighs less than 10 lbs. Medium Palma add 1.5 lbs I believe.</div></div>

The depends heavily on the barrel length he goes with.

Inside 26" there's not much of a difference between sendero/varmit contour and medium palma (as far as weight is concerned.) Personally I use which ever one cut_rifled has listed for sale that week.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's "ideal" and what's "best" are completely relevant terms. All the advice in the world is not going to give you the answer that only experience can dole out. Try to find shooters in your area, see what they have and get the feel for something that is comfortable. There is no right/wrong answer here. </div></div>

+1...

Mike has the real answer.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

+1

 

[mdesign]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's "ideal" and what's "best" are completely relevant terms. All the advice in the world is not going to give you the answer that only experience can dole out. Try to find shooters in your area, see what they have and get the feel for something that is comfortable. There is no right/wrong answer here. </div></div>

Of course you're right, I knew that when I asked the question. I have M24's which are way too heavy and a #5 that I really like as well as some lighter hunter weight barrels. Something tells me that what we would consider to be "ideal" is something between the #5 and the M24 but closer to the #5. I was just looking for others comments based on what they had experienced as there are some pretty sharp folk here that have seen and shot more combinations than I will own.

The comments on the Sendero contour were good as I had not thought of that but plan to check it out. Might be just what we are looking for. I have no experience with the Palma barrels but plan to ask around to see if I can find a palma rifle to check out.

Its all part of the fun of building a rifle.

 

[olympian]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

mdesign,

I think a standard sporter-weight will do anything you would want if you are talking whitetail-sized critters assuming the barrel is put together right. In my experience, the heavy barrels are not worth the weight considering the number of shots is low (like in big game hunting). A good sporter-weight barrel will shoot 0.5 MOA for three shots but the point of impact will change much more quickly than a heavy barrel after several shots (like in a match or varmint shooting).

 

[B.Bates]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

What stock are u going to run? Most sporter mcmillans only take a 4 or 5. I would run a mcm classic and a 20in #5 something similar to a douglas 5. I had a fluted douglas 5 in a mcm classic. It weighed like 9 lbs with leupold. Then had a broughton 4 in mcm classic it went about 3 to 4 oz lighter. Run the 20in tube and to me that is a great killer. While still being handy and able to carry. My next killer hunter is going to be a 20 or 21in douglas #5 taper barrel in a mcm classic leupold scoped 7-08 should weigh 8 to 9 pounds depending on how I spec stock

 

[mdesign]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

Good question. He likes the Mc HTG because the grip seems thinner and fit his hand better. I'm not sure what contours that stock will accept but I think it will take a Sendero. Also looking at the Manners T and that one will take an M24 barrel.

My rifle with the #5 Lilja weighs right at 9 lbs with a 3.5-10 Leupold. We are undecided on fluting due to cost/benefit.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

OK, I'll be the kid who's out of step here.

We've come a long way since Carlos Hathcock's day, and honestly, I think we're been off course since shortly after he was forced into retirement.

He bought a .30-'06 hunting rifle and scope in the PX, and plied his trade for a long time before somebody offered him something more specialized. Hell yeah, it shot better, but somehow, folks began to think a Sniper Rifle needed to be some sort of match rifle with sinews of steel.

They went with the heavy barrel approach to accuracy. But sporter weight barrels, well crafted, can be as effective. It's just not so easy to do or so reliable a process.

So tactical folks have been transformed into weight lifters.

I think that's wrong. I think that back then, at the beginning, we all took a wrong turn.

A Sniper is a hunter.

Heavy volumes of fire are not any more suitable for a Sniper than they are for a Hunter. That's why a Spotter needs a backup rifle with more firepower, if sightly less precision.

A soundly crafted hunting rifle is better suited to the task in any scenario where long distances afoot are involved. Rugged reliability is, IMHO, a dodge. If a professional Sniper can't take proper care of his implements, I say, too bad. Fix it, or replace it, but for goodness sake, let's get back to sensibly appointed implements.

I've seen what a sporter weight barrel can do off a bipod. My case is one of those fortunate instances where that less dependable process actually delivered a workable lighter weight barrel. I'm not a tactical shooter. I'm not even a really dedicated hunter. But for what I need to do, and I think, what Carlos had to do, that hunter rifle was is/equal to the task.

Greg

 

[former naval person]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

Having played around with that subject through the years and through some unreasonable cash, I think the Varmint/Sendero contour (or even the 1903 Springfield) is best. It puts a bit of the total weight out front to dampen oscillations and excited heartbeats. The skinny barrels to me don't settle down under field conditions/positions. Cut it a bit short...20in to 22in is good...and get a lightweight stock from one of the aftermarket suppliers. Solid mounts and rings...the EGW aluminum Picatinny base and some aluminum tactical rings and a moderate scope should keep him happy for many years. JMHO

 

[ykrvak]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

If I knew how to post pics I would. I just had a 7Remmag built and had a sendero contour Brux barrel installed and then fluted heavily. It's balanced well and isn't bad to carry. The finish length is 24" but obviously he could go shorter for his purposes and caliber selection.

 

[howdydoit]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

I can see a #5 contour being about perfect, enough weight to keep it stable and light enough for all day carry.

just my 2 cents.
howdy

 

[Falar]

Re: The "ideal" barrel contour

It looks like there really isn't much difference weight wise between the Light Palma, Medium Palma, and Sendero contours.

http://pac-nor.com/cgi-bin/pnb/bweight.cgi

Unless of course they are not all the same length in that calculator, because on this list here it shows different standard lengths for the various contours.

http://www.pac-nor.com/contours/

Light Palma and Medium Palma are almost identical, and I think my attempt at a lighter weight rifle will utilize one of them.