Night Vision The L3 vs. Photonis Shootout... What does an extra $2000 per tube actually get you?

[ashikaru]

L3 Filmless 22UM WP Vs. Photonis Echo+ WP

I was able to sneak in a few pictures tonight before the full moon rose to show off the difference between true low light and "high" light scenarios with both tubes. Setting is still in a lightly wooded, suburban area. (5 on the Bortle light pollution scale). Both units were purchased from Night Vision Devices (I highly recommend them to anyone in the market!)


Conditions:
Light Pollution - Lightly Forested Area in Suburbs (Class 5 Skies on Bortle Light Pollution Scale)

Tube Specs - L3:
Model - L3 22UM Filmless White Phosphor
Res: 72
SNR: 37.9
FOM: 2729
EBI: .6
Halo: .6

Tube Specs - Photonis:
Model - Photonis Echo+ White Phosphor
Res: 68
SNR: 31.5
FOM: 2142
EBI: N/A (Will add later)
Halo: N/A (Will add later)

FULL RES PICTURES HERE:

 

[diverdon]

Thanks. A lot of good info here.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@ashikaru Excellent work.

However, with the L3 filmless having a 20.3% better SN and an overall 27.4% better FOM than the Echo I would expect the filmless to perform significantly better in real dark conditions. Yet in all other conditions the Echo is holding its own pretty darn good despite being a lot lower spec'd unit.

Would be nice to see a comparison of the two toobs with pretty much the same specs or closer specs.

 

[Choid]

Thanks for this. I would have expected the Echo to be better in dealing with halo in the one picture, but the L3 does very well there too. Seems like the biggest difference is that an illuminator become necessary just a bit sooner with the echo in some circumstances.

 

[Lowdown3]

Great job, thank you!

What's always interesting to me is the pics people think are "dark" look to me like how I run my gain settings 90% of the time!

 

[ashikaru]

@ashikaru Excellent work.

However, with the L3 filmless having a 20.3% better SN and an overall 27.4% better FOM than the Echo I would expect the filmless to perform significantly better in real dark conditions. Yet in all other conditions the Echo is holding its own pretty darn good despite being a lot lower spec'd unit.

Would be nice to see a comparison of the two toobs with pretty much the same specs or closer specs.

I understand that the L3 tube is pretty high spec (not that I'm complaining!), but the Echo is pretty much on par with all of the ones that I've seen in the last couple of years. Although I do not personally have experience with this, I have read (I think from Augee @ TNVC) that filmless tubes will perform ~20% better when compared to similarly spec'd thin film systems in low light. Judging by the results I got from this very unscientific test I would be inclined to agree with that assessment.

 

[ashikaru]

Thanks for this. I would have expected the Echo to be better in dealing with halo in the one picture, but the L3 does very well there too. Seems like the biggest difference is that an illuminator become necessary just a bit sooner with the echo in some circumstances.

I was very surprised at how well the L3 handles the halo around the house lights. I walked out towards the street with the L3 tubes and honestly they look way better than I was expecting in high light. (houses/street lights/moon light/ect.)

 

[DOVER]

Great job keeping the camera settings equal between the tubes, far too many people don't do this making comparisons useless.

@ashikaru Excellent work.

Would be nice to see a comparison of the two toobs with pretty much the same specs or closer specs.

You won't see those numbers in an Echo+, but it would be nice to see a 4G+ as that's Photonis' tube that competes with the L3 filmless.

 

[ashikaru]

Great job keeping the camera settings equal between the tubes, far too many people don't do this making comparisons useless.



You won't see those numbers in an Echo+, but it would be nice to see a 4G+ as that's Photonis' tube that competes with the L3 filmless.

I saw a post a couple of years ago very similar to mine doing exactly this. Some guy in his backyard comparing the 2 in various conditions. Not sure if I saw it here, on Arfcom or on Cloudy Nights (Astronomy forum).

Ultimate Night Vision has some good videos up on Youtube of this as well:

 

[WhereNow&How]

In those UNV vids, the L3 had a 13.3% better SN and a 11.8% better FOM than the Photonis.

So still, not quite apples to apples.

 

[TheHorta]

Excellent job! No slack in that Echo tube. It puts in a very good showing.

If I were on a budget (well... technically we're ALL on a "budget") I would have zero problem opting for the Echo and put the difference toward quality accoutrements.

 

[silentwoods]

Great work, thanks

 

[WhereNow&How]

Accoutrement No 1 for any toob.

https://www.jrhenterprises.com/Luna-ELIR3-Long-range-IR-illuminator-LUNA-ELIR3.htm

 

[Choid]

Accoutrement No 1 for any toob.

https://www.jrhenterprises.com/Luna-ELIR3-Long-range-IR-illuminator-LUNA-ELIR3.htm

How often do you use illumination? I live in Bortle Class 1/Class 2 (new concept for me) and I almost never use illum. If I am trying to look into shadows in a treeline, yes, but not to just cruise around.

 

[TheHorta]

How often do you use illumination? I live in Bortle Class 1/Class 2 (new concept for me) and I almost never use illum. If I am trying to look into shadows in a treeline, yes, but not to just cruise around.

Agree with Choid... on the Bortle Class. I dun lernt sumpin' knew twodae.

 

[WhereNow&How]

How often do you use illumination? I live in Bortle Class 1/Class 2 (new concept for me) and I almost never use illum. If I am trying to look into shadows in a treeline, yes, but not to just cruise around.

Well I'm a simple man. My eyes could care less what "Bortle" says.

I use it when I can't see well enough to make a real life decision, whether that is PID for dispatching a critter or me breaking a leg cause I fell into the hole or walked off the cliff.

You will always need the availability of supplemental IR and White light illumination while traversing the wilds of the night and when you need it, you need it now.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Them old Copperheads and Cottonmouths are also a bitch when crossing steep creeks and having to reach your hands up to grab roots and trees to help pull yourself up. They love to lay up on those ledges and banks and will pop you in the hand or face if you aint careful.

So in the dark dark when all toobs are struggling to such a degree as you cant see them devils, I suggest turning on the Illuminator.

 

[WhereNow&How]

If I were on a budget (well... technically we're ALL on a "budget")

You just like the Gubment.

Just increase the budget as needed.

 

[Choid]

Them old Copperheads and Cottonmouths are also a bitch when crossing steep creeks and having to reach your hands up to grab roots and trees to help pull yourself up. They love to lay up on those ledges and banks and will pop you in the hand or face if you aint careful.

So in the dark dark when all toobs are struggling to such a degree as you cant see them devils, I suggest turning on the Illuminator.

I grew up in rattlesnake country. My first horse got killed by one when I was out on a trail ride at six years old. Hate those fuckers. First thing I assess when I move somewhere is whether there are any venomous snakes.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I grew up in rattlesnake country. My first horse got killed by one when I was out on a trail ride at six years old. Hate those fuckers. First thing I assess when I move somewhere is whether there are any venomous snakes.

Well funny thing about horses and snakes I have learned.

So in Australia, the horses I rode over there (for 12 years) were much more tuned into smelling or sensing a snake. Many a time I had a horse stop or balk and would alert to a snake a good 30 to 40 feet. Sometimes in grass waist deep.

I have watched several horses in the United States graze right up to a moccasin. Would have gotten bitten on the nose if I had not intervened.

On the rare occasions we would have a horse get snake bitten, we would tether the horse out in a river to keep the fever down and never lost one doing that.

Growing up with and frequent encounters with very deadly Australian snakes in remote areas with zero medical attention available for 100'ds of miles will teach you a lot about awareness to not getting bitten because you stand a good chance of losing your life. Tigers, Taipans, King Browns, Death Adders and Red Bellied Blacks snakes aint nothing to fool around with. Better really watch your ass when you go to the chicken coop to collect eggs.

 

[johnelot]

Well funny thing about horses and snakes I have learned.

So in Australia, the horses I rode over there (for 12 years) were much more tuned into smelling or sensing a snake. Many a time I had a horse stop or balk and would alert to a snake a good 30 to 40 feet. Sometimes in grass waist deep.

I have watched several horses in the United States graze right up to a moccasin. Would have gotten bitten on the nose if I had not intervened.

On the rare occasions we would have a horse get snake bitten, we would tether the horse out in a river to keep the fever down and never lost one doing that.

Growing up with and frequent encounters with very deadly Australian snakes in remote areas with zero medical attention available for 100'ds of miles will teach you a lot about awareness to not getting bitten because you stand a good chance of losing your life. Tigers, Taipans, King Browns, Death Adders and Red Bellied Blacks snakes aint nothing to fool around with. Better really watch your ass when you go to the chicken coop to collect eggs.

intresting - how deep to tether him - just legs enough or deeper to belly ? hope i never need the info -

"On the rare occasions we would have a horse get snake bitten, we would tether the horse out in a river to keep the fever down and never lost one doing that."

 

[WhereNow&How]

intresting - how deep to tether him - just legs enough or deeper to belly ? hope i never need the info -

"On the rare occasions we would have a horse get snake bitten, we would tether the horse out in a river to keep the fever down and never lost one doing that."

Find a spot that goes from about 1 foot to about 4 feet deep works best. That away the horse can have a little bit of participation in the depth.

Horse really has "5" hearts. Their main one is in their body and each hoof has basically one also, it is called the "frog". The "frog" is responsible for pumping the blood and (any toxins) from the hoof capsule back up the leg into the body. So you always want to make sure that the hoof is at least in about 1 foot of water at all times it does a good bit of cooling on its own. Hoof is a complicated part of the animal and is the place problems show up quickly. A horse with hoof problems is basically having no horse. Like a toob going to air.

Check the horse in the morning and evening and bring it out for an hour or so to graze and also give a little grain. Our horses were used to water and actually got swam a good bit in rivers as both horses and us were "cooling off" from hot Aussie heat. Jerk saddle and swim them bareback.

In deep water slide on down and grab the horses tail or by the mane to pull you along so you get the weight off the horses back which makes it easier for them to swim in deeper water

 

[GBMaryland]

My 2 cents:

The ECHO+ does not compete perfectly with the L3 Unfilmed.

On the other hand, a current Photonis "MilSpec" (Intens+), or whateverthehell they are calling them now, DOES compete with an L3. Problem is, they're about the same amount of money, so why buy one? They occupy a space, performance wise, in between L3 and ELbit.

In dark conditions, the L3 will have better contrast.

For example, one of my tests has been to look in a dark room to see if I can see two dark dressers with only a few LEDs from two electronic devices for light.

- If you can see them at all, that's good
- If you can see that they are rectangular objects, even better
- If you can see the handles on them, still better
- If you can see the edges on the drawers, that's pretty good
- If you can see the wood grain, you win

Only the L3 tubes, and the better ones at that, can see the wood grain.

In the real world, those conditions necessitate an illuminator.

I've tested the ECHO+ with a 36 S/N and it was a good tube. It was pretty dark compared to a INTENS, L3 (unfilmed or filmed), or ELbit.

I'd probably go with an Elbit with decent specs before an Echo.

If I had my druthers, I'd take a HIGH spec INTENS (ne MilSpec) over a normal spec L3 unfilmed.

...and I'd take a well rounded high spec L3 Unfilmed over anything else (though I'd rather have it potted in a ICT Labs PSU)

As a side note: both Photonis and ICT have power supplies in their tubes (INTENS/MILSPEC only) that mitigate high light conditions. The ICT PSU works flawlessly. An unfilmed L3 with an ICT labs tube is the shit. However, the INTENS/MILSPEC has as better IR light range for sensitivity, and an workable PSU for mittigating high light conditions... so it's not all apples to apples.

 

[Choid]

Well funny thing about horses and snakes I have learned.

So in Australia, the horses I rode over there (for 12 years) were much more tuned into smelling or sensing a snake. Many a time I had a horse stop or balk and would alert to a snake a good 30 to 40 feet. Sometimes in grass waist deep.

I have watched several horses in the United States graze right up to a moccasin. Would have gotten bitten on the nose if I had not intervened.

On the rare occasions we would have a horse get snake bitten, we would tether the horse out in a river to keep the fever down and never lost one doing that.

Growing up with and frequent encounters with very deadly Australian snakes in remote areas with zero medical attention available for 100'ds of miles will teach you a lot about awareness to not getting bitten because you stand a good chance of losing your life. Tigers, Taipans, King Browns, Death Adders and Red Bellied Blacks snakes aint nothing to fool around with. Better really watch your ass when you go to the chicken coop to collect eggs.

You are a fucking Australian? Should have known.

 

[TheHorta]

My 2 cents:

The ECHO+ does not compete perfectly with the L3 Unfilmed.

On the other hand, a current Photonis "MilSpec" (Intens+), or whateverthehell they are calling them now, DOES compete with an L3. Problem is, they're about the same amount of money, so why buy one? They occupy a space, performance wise, in between L3 and ELbit.

In dark conditions, the L3 will have better contrast.

For example, one of my tests has been to look in a dark room to see if I can see two dark dressers with only a few LEDs from two electronic devices for light.

- If you can see them at all, that's good
- If you can see that they are rectangular objects, even better
- If you can see the handles on them, still better
- If you can see the edges on the drawers, that's pretty good
- If you can see the wood grain, you win

Only the L3 tubes, and the better ones at that, can see the wood grain.

In the real world, those conditions necessitate an illuminator.

I've tested the ECHO+ with a 36 S/N and it was a good tube. It was pretty dark compared to a INTENS, L3 (unfilmed or filmed), or ELbit.

I'd probably go with an Elbit with decent specs before an Echo.

If I had my druthers, I'd take a HIGH spec INTENS (ne MilSpec) over a normal spec L3 unfilmed.

...and I'd take a well rounded high spec L3 Unfilmed over anything else (though I'd rather have it potted in a ICT Labs PSU)

As a side note: both Photonis and ICT have power supplies in their tubes (INTENS/MILSPEC only) that mitigate high light conditions. The ICT PSU works flawlessly. An unfilmed L3 with an ICT labs tube is the shit. However, the INTENS/MILSPEC has as better IR light range for sensitivity, and an workable PSU for mittigating high light conditions... so it's not all apples to apples.

Dammit GB!

How many times do we have to tell you to stop bringing your sciency crap into this forum?!

 

[GBMaryland]

Bahahaha

 

[WhereNow&How]

You are a fucking Australian? Should have known.

Negative

Full blown Confederate Rebel bred & born in the Great State Of Mississippi.

But spent 12 years of my youth in Australia as my family farmed and ran cattle over there.

Had the benefit of an excellent Australian school education which is much better than the school systems in the USA.

Also, got schooled in the way of some desolate living conditions. Pulled the trigger on more live game (roo's, pigs, foxes primarily) by the time I was 16 than a 100 men over here would take down in a lifetime. Pure pest control. Nothing to shoot 250 Roos a night out of the back of a Toyota Landcruiser and come back a few nights later and wear out that many or more hogs feasting on the carrion.

Typical night shooting team out of the back of a "table top" Landcruiser consisted of a driver and 2nd shooter in the cab. 2 guys in the back. One on 500,000 Q Beam and No 1 Primary Shooter. Everyone swaps positions about every 1.5 hours. Was reloading my own ammo at 11 years old. 22-250, 220 Swift & 270 Win.

Spent lots of time "real sport hunting" down in both the South & North Islands of New Zealand. Hunters and fishermans paradise for everything.
South of Lake Te Anau is some really wild and rugged country. Huge Wapiti down there.

So I have a long history of night hunting.

Typical "Table Top" setup for a commercial roo hunter. We did not run pegs on our Land Cruisers to hook em cause we just laid them down on the ground to stop crop destruction. Enough work killin em let alone pick em up for processing. But today, commercial roo hunting is big business for dog food industry. Some of them guys make over $1,000 per night.

This is a relatively average size Grey Kangaroo. He would not have done that to a big mature buck Red Kangaroo. A big Red would have torn his ass up.



Couple of big male Reds going at it.

 

[Choid]

Negative

Full blown Confederate Rebel bred & born in the Great State Of Mississippi.

But spent 12 years of my youth in Australia as my family farmed and ran cattle over there.

Had the benefit of an excellent Australian school education which is much better than the school systems in the USA.

Also, got schooled in the way of some desolate living conditions. Pulled the trigger on more live game (roo's, pigs, foxes primarily) by the time I was 16 than a 100 men over here would take down in a lifetime. Pure pest control. Nothing to shoot 250 Roos a night out of the back of a Toyota Landcruiser and come back a few nights later and wear out that many or more hogs feasting on the carrion.

Typical night shooting team out of the back of a "table top" Landcruiser consisted of a driver and 2nd shooter in the cab. 2 guys in the back. One on 500,000 Q Beam and No 1 Primary Shooter. Everyone swaps positions about every 1.5 hours. Was reloading my own ammo at 11 years old. 22-250, 220 Swift & 270 Win.

Spent lots of time "real sport hunting" down in both the South & North Islands of New Zealand. Hunters and fishermans paradise for everything.
South of Lake Te Anau is some really wild and rugged country. Huge Wapiti down there.

So I have a long history of night hunting.

Typical "Table Top" setup for a commercial roo hunter. We did not run pegs on our Land Cruisers to hook em cause we just laid them down on the ground to stop crop destruction. Enough work killin em let alone pick em up for processing. But today, commercial roo hunting is big business for dog food industry. Some of them guys make over $1,000 per night.

View attachment 7594493


This is a relatively average size Grey Kangaroo. He would not have done that to a big mature buck Red Kangaroo. A big Red would have torn his ass up.



Couple of big male Reds going at it.

I love Australians. I mean, they are total pains in the ass, but in a good way. Years ago I helped a guy who was importing the first Kelpies into the US to run his sheep. He was sick and tired of what was bred locally. Anyway, prying those black and tan fuckers out of the farmers hands was quite an ordeal. And they couldn't believe it when they found out the dogs slept inside, and not in hollowed out tree trunks.

 

[TheHorta]

I love Australians. I mean, they are total pains in the ass, but in a good way. Years ago I helped a guy who was importing the first Kelpies into the US to run his sheep. He was sick and tired of what was bred locally. Anyway, prying those black and tan fuckers out of the farmers hands was quite an ordeal. And they couldn't believe it when they found out the dogs slept inside, and not in hollowed out tree trunks.

For such a polite society, Aussies are evil bass turds on the road. I was driving in Sydney last year (pre-COVID, obviously) and trying to exit was like a battle frickin’ royal ‘cuz every driver was a dickhead. Plenty of gap, signal to change lanes, pricks would speed up to close the gap — Every. Single. Time.

Sometimes it’s hard being a Christian.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I love Australians. I mean, they are total pains in the ass, but in a good way. Years ago I helped a guy who was importing the first Kelpies into the US to run his sheep. He was sick and tired of what was bred locally. Anyway, prying those black and tan fuckers out of the farmers hands was quite an ordeal. And they couldn't believe it when they found out the dogs slept inside, and not in hollowed out tree trunks.

Kelpies are excellent sheep dogs.

We used blue heelers (the bigger ones with more Dingo in them) than the Merle's you see over here and also what we called German Glass Eyed Cattle Dogs. Heelers are good for pushing cattle but not real good at getting in front of a herd and stopping them. German Glass eyes did better for that. We teach them to work off 3 types of commands. Beeps of truck horn, verbal or when they were way out in tall grass and could not see you they would jump up to work off hand signals.

In Australia a excellent working sheep or cattle dog is worth more than 5 men on horses etc. Real rural Australians could care less about any "papers" on a working dog. Show me the dog working is how they are judged. Some dogs would become local legends. Good trained working dogs command big money and them dogs live to work. Take them from their work and they would likely die soon if they had any age on them from fretting and depression.

We had a big heeler that was a top of the line working cattle dog and also an astounding snake killer. He hated snakes and was good enough to catch them right behind the head and he would hold them and let the other dogs grab the tail and they would literally pull them apart. When snakes would run for cover (typically try to go down in dry cracked open ground) he would grab them by the tail and pull them out and as soon as he got them out would grab them right behind the head and let the other dogs get on the tail and they would kill them.

He was the only one I ever saw that had a real hard on for a snake. Must have gotten more stronger Dingo traits in him.

 

[WhereNow&How]

For such a polite society, Aussies are evil bass turds on the road. I was driving in Sydney last year (pre-COVID, obviously) and trying to exit was like a battle frickin’ royal ‘cuz every driver was a dickhead. Plenty of gap, signal to change lanes, pricks would speed up to close the gap — Every. Single. Time.

Sometimes it’s hard being a Christian.

Well 3/4 of the Australians live in the cities mainly on the coastline. So therein lies most of the problem. City slickers. Its a universal thing.

The rural people are where the gems are usually found. Salt of the earth.

However Australia has totally blown my mind out how they have gone down in their preservation of freedom. Starting around 2000 ish, just about all of the Prime Ministers are ex Goldman Sachs or controlled by Goldman Sachs lackies.

John Anderson is one of the few really good guys. His family had a farm at Mullaley, New South Wales about 15 miles from a place we owned and farmed.

John Anderson Former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtnYSEGViOnb7k8ezUaWUww

 

[Choid]

Kelpies are excellent sheep dogs.

We used blue heelers (the bigger ones with more Dingo in them) than the Merle's you see over here and also what we called German Glass Eyed Cattle Dogs. Heelers are good for pushing cattle but not real good at getting in front of a herd and stopping them. German Glass eyes did better for that. We teach them to work off 3 types of commands. Beeps of truck horn, verbal or when they were way out in tall grass and could not see you they would jump up to work off hand signals.

In Australia a excellent working sheep or cattle dog is worth more than 5 men on horses etc. Real rural Australians could care less about any "papers" on a working dog. Show me the dog working is how they are judged. Some dogs would become local legends. Good trained working dogs command big money and them dogs live to work. Take them from their work and they would likely die soon if they had any age on them from fretting and depression.

We had a big heeler that was a top of the line working cattle dog and also an astounding snake killer. He hated snakes and was good enough to catch them right behind the head and he would hold them and let the other dogs grab the tail and they would literally pull them apart. When snakes would run for cover (typically try to go down in dry cracked open ground) he would grab them by the tail and pull them out and as soon as he got them out would grab them right behind the head and let the other dogs get on the tail and they would kill them.

He was the only one I ever saw that had a real hard on for a snake. Must have gotten more stronger Dingo traits in him.

We have two kelpies and a heeler. I am not a big heeler guy, but ours is a nice dog. They are too lazy when it gets hot, and too quick to bite. Mine would prefer that no other humans get within ten feet of me. The kelpies are about perfect. They remind me, in comparison to collies, of malinois vs GSDs. Goofy and good natured in general, but never run out of steam.

We took our older kelpie, a six year old male, on "vacation" last year for a week long backpacking trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness. I don't think he missed every day life one bit. Thought he was king of the back country.

 

[WhereNow&How]

We have two kelpies and a heeler. I am not a big heeler guy, but ours is a nice dog. They are too lazy when it gets hot, and too quick to bite. Mine would prefer that no other humans get within ten feet of me. The kelpies are about perfect. They remind me, in comparison to collies, of malinois vs GSDs. Goofy and good natured in general, but never run out of steam.

We took our older kelpie, a six year old male, on "vacation" last year for a week long backpacking trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness. I don't think he missed every day life one bit. Thought he was kind of the back country.

Yeah, Kelpies tend to be more energetic for sure. All of the heeler I have seen over here are the smaller Merles and just about every one of them I have seen was bad overweight and like you say lazy. Even in Australia, we much preferred the bigger healers with more Dingo in them. Leaner and more active.

Never had any problem with them biting humans unless the dog was commanded "sicked" on someone, which ours were trained to go after anything they were commanded to, but cattle was their game 99% of the time. Funny to watch a big heeler grab and latch on to full grown Brahma bull. Seen them bulls sling them dogs around and around and they held on for quite a while. A 2,500 lb bull vs a 70 pound heeler is something to watch.

We would not let them fool with the roos at all. Roo's would gut them fast with their middle hind leg toenail.

 

[Jgunner]

So we went out with a echo and a L3 last night. Echo was 1800 fom and L3 was a 2376+ with no data sheet.
In a moonless environment, only starlight i could see 20 yards with the echo and make out exactly what i was seeing. The L3 was double that.
Once the near full moon came out it was neck and neck. But a $2600 to $4500 dollar unit by comparison. I would be happy with either, if i were on a budget i would buy to echos and an illuminator. Mind you i am a hunter, not a operator.

 

[Lowdown3]

I think a lot of this sort of discussion also revolves around how MUCH brightness you feel like you require, or can tolerate or are used to using in the woods. We learned to move around in the woods without NV 30 years ago and to be honest 99% of the NV I've used to me is too bright. I rarely ever run my gain control higher than half. I can also then be under NODs for a much longer period of time than if my gain is cranked up. I'm talking about 37SN, low Ebi high spec WP 3rd gen units- but I tend to run my Echos the same way- half gain or less. And we never use NV in the suburbs or other "high light" environments. It's always middle of the woods/middle of nowhere type locations.

So to an extent I think it's person dependent as well.

 

[matman1]

Does anyone have a 4G+ tube? I'm thinking about getting one and I'm curious what specs you're seeing outta those other than the min > 2300 FOM.

 

[jeffl838]

I might be a snob, but in pics 1 and 3 the photonis looks significantly worse. In my opinion, to the point of it being an operational liability (for fighting use)

 

[GBMaryland]

@ashikaru Excellent work.

However, with the L3 filmless having a 20.3% better SN and an overall 27.4% better FOM than the Echo I would expect the filmless to perform significantly better in real dark conditions. Yet in all other conditions the Echo is holding its own pretty darn good despite being a lot lower spec'd unit.

Would be nice to see a comparison of the two toobs with pretty much the same specs or closer specs.

I failed to respond to this one before because I probably didn’t read it…

So everything you say is true but the proper thing to be looking out with respect this is luminance gain…

A photonis echo plus it’s probably a fallout tube… Or are they intentionally dumb them down so that they don’t have as good a gain as they’re higher end tubes.

The echoes are nice but fairly dark compared to anything else really. But especially so when compared to high-end Photonis, L3, Elbit…

If that had been a photonis milspec (aka intens) they would’ve been much closer performance.