The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

[ReaperDriver]

The conventional wisdom says that neck-sizing "works the brass less" than FL-sizing and therefore will increase brass life. I started out with a neck sizer based on this theory.

What few discuss however, is that the brass will need to be FL resized every so often with either a body die or a FL die once it grows too much to chamber. My experience was I was having to body size every 2-3 firings anyway to make sure it would reliably chamber on the range.

My question or comment is: While neck sizing only with occasional FL sizing works the brass less <span style="font-style: italic">often </span>- it seems to me that it negates the benefits because it works the brass more all at once. Conversely, if you Fl resize each time - you do work it more often but in smaller increments at a time. Which one is better then?

 

[USMCj]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

I neck size only but for another reason. I belive, and this is just IMHO, that full length sized brass just lays on the bottom of the chamber, and doesnt fit all that snug in the chamber, so in effect, the bullet is not centered down the bore, but more towards the bottom.

With neck sized and fire formed brass, the case has already expanded to the nearly the same size as the bore, so it fits almost like a glove, and the bullet is more inline with the bore so it pretty much has a straight flight into the lands instead of starting low.

I have no idea if what I just said above makes sense, but I wan picture it better than I can explain it.

 

[desertHK]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

Both of my 308 and 338LM have always been neck size only. I just watch for the case length. So far, over 10 reloads, I haven't had the need for FL.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I neck size only but for another reason. I belive, and this is just IMHO, that full length sized brass just lays on the bottom of the chamber, and doesnt fit all that snug in the chamber, so in effect, the bullet is not centered down the bore, but more towards the bottom.

With neck sized and fire formed brass, the case has already expanded to the nearly the same size as the bore, so it fits almost like a glove, and the bullet is more inline with the bore so it pretty much has a straight flight into the lands instead of starting low.

I have no idea if what I just said above makes sense, but I wan picture it better than I can explain it. </div></div>

I agree with this.

The fore/aft sizing needs to be done only if one can't close the bolt. The case does fit more snugly in the chamber if it's sized to a smidgen under chamber dimensions. If you need to bump the shoulder back once every few loadings and then FL/body die size on say the fourth cycle, where you bump things back just enough to chamber, then you've worked the brass that much less.

Let's face it, you've got to be stretching the case quite a bit over its life, to come to 'case head separation' and usually, a neck will split or you'll get loose primer pockets, first.

People should do what makes them happy and if they're shooting big matches on the clock, they might need to trade off case life for reliability. Me? I'm just a table top shooter doing all of this for shits and giggles, not for the brass ring, so I generally neck size as long as I can get away with it.

Chris

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

Reap;

We've covered all this here many times over in the past decade or so.

Your conclusions are absolutely correct; neck sizers need to bump the shoulders back every so often.

Just part of the process. Look up 'bump die'.

Greg

 

[Hummer]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

Had a interesting discussion with a guy several years back who knew a guy that worked the QA room at Sierra and he said this guy swore they FL sized cases before every test and that they got better accuracy.
Had a very good friend at Secret Service who died last year and he was their top armorer and he said tests had been run that new brass shot better than reloaded brass.
The best shooting I ever did winning the Palma Trophy back to back and coming second in Canadian Cup (National Long Range Championship-Perry) same two years was done with new Lapua brass.

I did not reload Lapua (30.06) because primers fell out of the pockets on first shot on about five cases. Heads were VERY SOFT.

On the other hands I won alot of stuff with reload ammo with the long range stuff necksized and not stress relieved ! ! ! ! Necks were hard.

I have a theory, haven't had time to test it out but my theory is the carbon left in the case necks and bullets seated therein tends to lock up the bullet/neck interface for lack of better terminology as I know the BR boys want clean necks (make that shiney clean necks)for uniform neck tension/bullet release.



The force seating the bullets tells nothing no matter how good they feel. The force required to break the bullet/neck lock up is all critical which has been proven.

Bullet pull on the new LRM118 requires a minimum bullet pull of 10 lbs AND NO MAX ! ! ! !

My contact in the ammo industry tells me a bullet pull of 300 POUNDS ! ! ! ! is not considered EXCESSIVE. Now that is one hell of a variation ! ! ! which can't be good for round to round uniformity.

At this point I have come to the conclusion we can have the best of both world with a little TLC by the following:

1. A tight chamber where nothing (body/shoulder/neck) don't move over .002" on firing.
2. FL sizing the cases just makes it a tad looser for chambering and takes it back to new condition.
3. Cleaning the cases to where they are "new condition" does the same thing as having a new case and thanks to Terry he has proven this can be done EVERY TIME.

Just yesterday I sized 100 30.06 match cases (LC63) that had been fired one time to generate the brass. These cases measure .465 unfired and fired measure .4652. I have a Hornady die that sizes cases back to .465 and running these cases in the die was almost like chambering a fireformed case.

I tumbled them 8 hours in about 3/4 ounce of Ivory and not even a thimble full of Limishine in hot water to about 1" from top of drum and they came out absolutely gleaming thusly I have for all practical purposes new brass. I have been tumbling several years now and while they have been beautiful I never had any coming out like this.

I talked to a nice guy about a month ago and he told me he found less Ivory and Limishine was THE mix. I asked him to measure just how much he used (he said "a squirt") and he never got back with me so I started to experiment. I have a 125ML flask with a mark on the side where I used to put Ivory/Dawn/Joy to and yesterday I put a new mark on the flask about 3/16" up from bottom. This is about 1/8th the soap volume I was using.

I am using a high speed motor Ron Morrison sent to me and I changed out a Thumlers low speed (if anyone needs a good little motor this one runs just fine - PM me) and the drum now flies. Ron found a 1/5th HP Dayton motor and that thing is awesome.

Bottom line here is I think new case CONDITION is THE ANSWER with neck turning to remove the cam lobes, flash hole uniformity etc. With the tumbler cleaning removing 100% of the carbon and with what we know of stress relieving the necks, we have the winning combo.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

I have gone about the neck tension issue a couple of ways. I explained the one way that worked best a few times here.

I neck size by backing off my F/L die until it's just resizing a portion of the end of the neck. I keep reducing the resized length until I can take a seated bullet between index and thumb, and rotate it in the neck.

At this point, I'm resizing too little of the neck, and run the die back down 1/4 turn at a time until I can finally consistently fail to turn the bullet. At that point, I've achieved what I consider a reasonable minimum neck tension and done it with at least some degree of uniformity and control.

It's kinda unscientific, and there are no numbers to support anything, but it's an attempt to do something meaningful without having to invest in additional types of dies.

I don't turn necks because I prefer to use SAAMI chambers, and that because I prefer not to turn necks. It's circular logic, but it also has some real meaning.

Greg

 

[Swan]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

I think the debate also has alot to do with your chamber, as mentioned above. A factory chamber will definitely work the brass more than a custom. In addition, the other main contributor would be the load you are running. For example, running a near max load out of a factory chamber, as I currently do, absolutely works my brass hard. I can neck size only once, then I have to bump the shoulders back. So I just to do both now everytime for reliability. This combination of a factory chamber and max load seems to be the deciding factor. It's also why I only get about 5 reloads on Lapua brass before I have to toss it.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

The best thing I have found to do is this,

Redding full length bushing die. Set up to size the neck .002or.003 and bump the shoulder the same. Use a Wilson case length gauge to measure shoulder bump. (helps prevent lug galling as well)
Full lenght sizing is done by the BR guys as well. One of the problems with neck only sizing is that the case is not indexed and so it is out of round with the chamber as neither are perfectly round. JMO

 

[dmg308]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

This may have been covered and I missed it.On the idea of neck sizing only so as to have the round more accuratly centered to the bore. Would it (the round) have to be oriented exactly the same or it would nulifi any gain? A chamber is not 100% perfectly round so it may be better consistency wise to have the whole case returned to a samispec? Just a thought I have nothing to back it up either way.

 

[rksimple]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I neck size only but for another reason. I belive, and this is just IMHO, that full length sized brass just lays on the bottom of the chamber, and doesnt fit all that snug in the chamber, so in effect, the bullet is not centered down the bore, but more towards the bottom.

</div></div>

Properly FL sized brass won't just lay there, provided you're using it in a rifle without a fixed ejector. The ejector pushes the round forward in the chamber. Inevitably, it pushes it more to one side than the other, but I haven't seen any ill effects in accuracy if the brass isn't over-sized. But add in the Redding bushing die that leaves a very slight portion of the neck unsized, and you have a great combination. .001-.002" of shoulder bump and a center up cartridge. Realiable and accurate.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

I don't now if anyone has even tried to establish where cases split most often but virtually allof mine fail with split necks. Brass splits because of excessive work hardening. Thin metal tends to work harden faster than thicker brass. The split necks don't care if they were overworked in a full length sizer or a neck sizer. ??

Meaning, unless I anneal every 5 or 6 loadings, neck or FL sizing means nothing.

Except -- for using Lee's collet neck sizer. Unlike conventional size dies, it works necks an absolute minimum to get the job done. And it leaves the necks quite straight too.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't now if anyone has even tried to establish where cases split most often but virtually allof mine fail with split necks. Brass splits because of excessive work hardening. Thin metal tends to work harden faster than thicker brass. The split necks don't care if they were overworked in a full length sizer or a neck sizer. ??</div></div>

Here is the difference in the work 'function'.
When the neck is sized in a conventional FL die, the neck is sized smaller (working it once) and then upsized with the expander ball (working it a second time).
When the neck is sized with a bushing, the neck is worked to a smaller diameter (once)

So the advantage of Neck Only sizing is the total amount of work done to the neck. In addition there is less work done on the body since body sizing is skipped most of the time (1/3 to 1/5).

 

[RTH1800]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

Redding FL neck die. Sizes the neck as a neck die and keeps body round.
David Tubb, Mid Tompkins, and Tony Boyer FL size. Good enough for me.

 

[Cheech]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

why not have a custom die made to fit your specific chamber? Maybe .001 or .0005 smaller. Same size as your fire formed casings. I would think all the competitive shooters would do this. a custom die is relatively cheap compared to the cost of most competitive shooters rigs. I'm not a match shooter but I have been seriously thinking about this. Dose it make sense or is it a waste of time and money.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

At one time i would cringe at the thought of using a FL die. I use them in almost everything now. In some of those chamberings I use expander balls as well. When using a ball, pick a bushing that sizes the neck at or very slightly under ball size. That way drawing the case back over the ball does very little but iron out any dents. I always hated to do the shoulder bump with a body die in a separate operation. I too would do it every three firings but you always get that odd case that needs a bump out of sequence. Of course you find that out when your shooting, and it just makes my blood boil when the bolt doesn't close properly every time. I see alot of this when I go to the range, from other hand loaders. You just shouldn't need to fight the bolt on closing or opening.

I have run into some full length dies that just don't seem to match my chambers very well. I have a .223 die (not a small base die) that sizes the body diameter down much more than I would like BEFORE i get to the shoulder bump i like. All of my rifles have custom minimum chambers so I think standard dies may always be a bit of a crap shoot. Take careful before and after case measurements and you should be able to see if you are over sizing.

I recently had a custom Neil Jones FL die made in 6.5X47L. I sent him a reamer print and two fired cases and he sent me back a beautiful die with two bushings.

The bushings control neck sizing and shoulder bump together. It looks a bit like a micrometer seater except the micrometer controls the depth of the shoulder bump. If the bushing is in a position to touch the shoulder then that will also size the full length of the neck. I know some people don't like sizing the whole neck but i haven't experienced a downside and the ammo is used in a mag feed gun anyway. This die was about $200 but since I own the reamer it was cut for, and I'll have at least two rifles with that chamber, it was worthwhile. X47 brass is expensive and if I could just get set up for annealing, i think i could literally go forever on the brass(40, 50, 100 firings?). The BR guys do it.

Regarding virgin brass, I have always shot some of my best groups with new brass. Must be something to it.

edited: Split necks...i think chambers with large necks cause this since you are forced to size back down to a point of neck tension. That could be .015 or more in a gun with a crappy chamber. In my custom chambers, I havent seen a split neck in years. Even when the brass is so hard it's difficult to debur, i know I won't see a split.

 

[USMCj]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

One more thing I forgot to mention. When full length sizing each time, I notice the brass streches each time I FL size, so it needs to be trimmed each time. The more it grows, the thinner the web becomes and sooner or later you will have case head seperation.

With just neck sizing, I have not had the need to trim the brass after the inital trimming I did when they were virgin.

Another thing to think about.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

It doesn't need to be that way. You are oversizing if your getting that much growth with each firing. Certain dies just aren't going to work with certain chambers. With standard dies you should still be able to go 5-7 firings with standard dies. Just because you are full length sizing doesn't automatically mean over sizing. The die needs to be correct for your chamber and set up properly.

It was mentioned earlier but a bunch of top BR shooters do it and they don't shoot sissy loads. They get amazing brass life.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

USMCj- I re-read your post. How much growth were you seeing during you FL sizing operation? Depending on how much body sizing is being done, the case elongates some amount before the shoulder gets pushed back. Could that be what you are seeing?

 

[USMCj]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

Cpl, sorry but its been so long Ive full length sized anything, I cant remember how much they grew, but it was enough to need to trim after each reload. I never sized my brass more than was needed to chamber, so the body never grew too much, I would just make sure they were sized down enough to chamber, but even then I could measure growth after each sizing. After 3 firings on my 7WSM brass, they still chamber, and they have only grown 1-2 thou max (if that) now I realize IM going to have to bump the shoulders back sooner or later, but by then I will have ordered a custom die.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

I've never experienced that kind of growth. Factory gun?

 

[Innovative]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

I recently wrote an article on this subject. It includes most of the concerns mentioned above, and it explains why I ALWAYS use a FL die.

NK vs. FL Resizing

Check it out on my website ...

- Innovative

 

[GJgo]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

Anyone that has a runout gauge and both types of dies should check this out- I was suprised.

My Savage 308 chamber produces fired brass with a neck runout of about .001". When I FL size this brass with my RCBS FL sizer w/o the expander ball, the neck runout is still right about .001". It pushes the body back .002". Now, I also have RCBS neck sizing die. When I use it also w/ no expander ball, my brass necks now have .005" runout! Since the case body isn't supported it just does what it wants to with the neck. YMMV, just my experience with one die set.

(I do not have this problem with my Redding bushing die set, BTW.)

 

[steve123]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The conventional wisdom says that neck-sizing "works the brass less" than FL-sizing and therefore will increase brass life. I started out with a neck sizer based on this theory.

What few discuss however, is that the brass will need to be FL resized every so often with either a body die or a FL die once it grows too much to chamber. My experience was I was having to body size every 2-3 firings anyway to make sure it would reliably chamber on the range.

My question or comment is: While neck sizing only with occasional FL sizing works the brass less <span style="font-style: italic">often </span>- it seems to me that it negates the benefits because it works the brass more all at once. Conversely, if you Fl resize each time - you do work it more often but in smaller increments at a time. Which one is better then? </div></div>


End the debate and get the ultimate.It's the best of both worlds.I got one for my 6x47L.It only made sense because I own my own reamer and don't see having to replace my brass for many years if at all.No joking! The quality and tolerance is insane! It's the best reloading die there is.

http://www.warner-tool.com/

 

[steve123]

Re: The on-going debate between neck and FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Innovative</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently wrote an article on this subject. It includes most of the concerns mentioned above, and it explains why I ALWAYS use a FL die.

NK vs. FL Resizing

Check it out on my website ...

- Innovative
</div></div>

I bought your shoulder bump gauge and sure was happy I did.Super easy and convenient!

Steve