The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

[EXSOCAL]

I played around with the carbide expander in my Redding Comp Sizing Die but never fully convereted to using this set up. I am about to start a fresh round of load development so I figured I would give the expander ball another shot. I normally run a Sinclair expander mandrel in each case prior to neck sizing to ensure there are no bumps and dents in the neck.

My question is, I measured the OD of the carbide ball at .306"... when I tested it out in my press on a new piece of clean brass, there was a bit of tension on the up stroke of the press moving he case back out of the die. This is clearly caused my the expander ball, but it seems like it defeats the whole purpose of using my .336" bishing to seze the neck because as you withdraw the expander ball, it will re size the inside of the neck to .306", leaving the OD of the neck whatever it happens to be.

Do I have this right or am I missing something?

 

[DocB]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

Socal,

Now you know why folks neck turn brass. Makes both the ID and the OD equal all the way around the bullet if you do it right. Reaming the necks also helps.

HTH,
DocB

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

If you size with a bushing then use a die that has a ball you are sizing the neck twice. When you size with a bushing you have calculated that .336 outside is .306 inside.

A die that uses an expander ball under sizes the neck from the outside then stretches out the neck from the inside. I don't have measurements but if you size a case without the stem the inside may measure .301 or .302. Then the ball ball will stretch it back out to .306. It has to size the neck down small enough that the thinest neck is smaller than .306 inside so the ball can size it to .306.

 

[EXSOCAL]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Socal,

Now you know why folks neck turn brass. Makes both the ID and the OD equal all the way around the bullet if you do it right. Reaming the necks also helps.

HTH,
DocB</div></div>

I neck turned my Lapua brass for quite a while but never saw any discernible improvement in accuracy, or ES so I gave it up, maybe I will look into it again!

 

[EXSOCAL]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you size with a bushing then use a die that has a ball you are sizing the neck twice. When you size with a bushing you have calculated that .336 outside is .306 inside.

A die that uses an expander ball under sizes the neck from the outside then stretches out the neck from the inside. I don't have measurements but if you size a case without the stem the inside may measure .301 or .302. Then the ball ball will stretch it back out to .306. It has to size the neck down small enough that the thinest neck is smaller than .306 inside so the ball can size it to .306.</div></div>

The Redding Comp. Neck sizing die uses the carbide expander ball in conjunction with the neck sizing bushings, just based on the apparent order of operations when you run a piece of brass in that die it appears that things happen in this order:

Down stroke of the press:
1. Carbide expander ball enters the case and expands.

2. .336" neck bushing contacts the neck and does its job.

Up stroke:
3. Neck bushing moves up and off the neck.

4. Carbide expander is drawn up, through and out the mouth. having the last bit of contact with the neck which obviously changes the ID and OD to what the expander ball is, not the neck bushing.

It just seems like this pretty much completely defeats the neck bushing, no?

I'm gonna call Redding....

3.

 

[former naval person]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

As you say. If you have concentric necks from turning, and use the proper size bushing, you don't need nor should you use ANY expanding ball. JMHO

 

[turbo54]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

In my mind, sizing the ID of the neck makes the most sense, particularly for us non-benchrest guys.

For example: I bought 500 pcs of LC72 Match brass, once fired. I cleaned them all up, did an FLS with a standard RCBS FLS die, cleaned them up again, then loaded them all up. Everything went great.

After I had fired them all, I then set up my forster bushing/bump die in the Dillon, and ran them all through to neck size, bump the shoulder a little, and decap. Then cleaned them.

Upon loading them, I found 15-20 pcs where the bullet was a slip-fit into the neck.

Obviously, this is because of variations in neck wall thickness. I think turning necks is really a pain, and I have 100-200 pcs of brass that have been neck turned that I keep around when going to a match where I think the LITTLE extra accuracy might catch me a couple more points, but for most of my shooting, I just don't wanna do it.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the expander ball is where its at!! Where it ISN'T at, however, is a standard sizing die that necks the case WAY down, only to expand it back out...

...enter the bushing die! I can size my ID down to .304, and then the ball will pull it out to .306, which ultimately works teh brass much less than a typical die that would neck it down to .290, and then back out to .306.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

I have the Redding carbide buttons for .22 cal, .30 cal and .338 cal.

I only use them when I'm sizing cases with dinged in mouths, like one would typically get with AR-15 fired brass, or any other semi-auto.

For for brass fired out of my bolt guns, I dont' bother with any expander balls.

I can see your point though.

I have 50 pieces of 308 Win brass that have very thin necks for some reason and need at least a .332" bushing and probably a .331" bushing (I only have down to .332") just to grip the bullet, barely.

Were I to fire these out of my HK-91, or FN-FAL, I might need to use the carbide expander button and well, I'd be sizing with a OD of .332", or .331" and then opening things back up with the carbide button to the point that I bet I couldn't properly seat any bullets.

Thanks for the comment, as it'll make me think things through a bit deeper when dealing with oddball components.

Chris

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

I'm not sure but to me it sounds like the die is an attempt not to bring the neck to far below your inside neck diameter then size it on the way out. I think I see the point but if that's what its doing then a bushing alone would be less work on the brass. I think Chris is on the right track, the ball couldbe to re-round dented necks. Let us know what Redding says.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

I've been using these carbide balls in my Redding Type 'S' F/L bushing dies for years.

Instead of dicking around trying to pretend that you're shooting BR with precisely calculated neck tension, pick a bushing size that causes the ball to just kiss the inside of the neck on the way out. That way, you haven't over sized the neck, you haven't under sized the neck, and the neck is just the right size (0.306" for a .308 Win) with 0.002" neck tension - enough for easy seating without marring the bullet, but not so little as to have to worry about the bullet getting pushed back into the case during routine (non-abusive) handling.

The carbide ball is floating/self-centering and fairly hard/slick compared to regular OEM expander balls, so its not likely to drag/stretch or push the neck off center.

They work great. Don't make things harder than they really need to be by over thinking this.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[EXSOCAL]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

Spoke to Dave @ Redding today. Interesting conversation, a very helpful dude. The carbide buttons are precisely ground to a .306 diameter, barring any spring-back, this would in theory give you a nice, concentric .306 ID or approx. .002" of neck tension depending on the actual bullet OD you are loading. Except, there IS spring-back so the finished ID after the button is withdrawn through the neck is dependent on your bushing size so you still have quite a bit of control over over the neck tension. I did a little bit of testing with virgin Lapua brass today. Ran 5 through the neck sizing die with no button, and 5 through the die with the carbide button. After measuring the ID's and OD's and comparing, the ID's of the button group were a half thou larger, but every one was IDENTICAL. The group without the button and just the bushing were varied with three being the same and one being 1 thou smaller, and another being .5 thou bigger. Measured with calipers and pin gauges. I like what I am seeing so I will do some testing through my load work up and see how this progresses.

Dave @ Redding said it was not possible for the button to pull the necks off center due to its floating design, and the fact that the carbide doesn't grip enough on the neck to do a whole bunch. Sounds reasonable.

I have always had to expand my necks because they get a little ding or flat spot at the very end when they are extracted out of my 591 action. As soon as they are free from the chamber, they are pushed out to the extractor and smack the inside of the receiver before I extract them into my hand.

I have a 40 rounds loaded up for some ladder testing with the new 2000-mr powder and 178 Amax's and 185 Bergers. Excited to see how this goes!

 

[taseal]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

let me know, I'm curious on your results...

so you're gonna start using the expander regardless of condition of neck from now on?

 

[memilanuk]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

Been doing it for years... I certainly don't think its hurting my scores

IIRC Jason Baney posted either here or on 6BR.com that he did as well...

 

[Tripwire]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

I have two Redding FL dies for everything I load that's "bolt gun". One is set up without the expander and bumps the shoulder .001". The other has a floating expander installed and in a second step I PUSH the neck up over it just far enough to pass all the way through the neck and expand it, instead of the "normal" pull through.

This, and skinnin' the fat side off of the necks when they are new, keeps my runout VERY low off the press. I'd much rather worry about keeping runout to a minimum than dickin' around with some magic amount of neck tension.......

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

I use the bushings only, the button or ball was the first thing I took off. No issues running .001,.002 or what ever tension you want. My groups prove Im not missing out on anything, and I run Lapua, Winchester, Hornady and neck turned LC brass through them.

 

[EWP]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

You still have to use an expander ball with none neck turned brass, you don't want the OD of the neck set to any certain bushing size, you want the ID of the necks all set to the same size and that can only be done with an expander ball.

The point of a bushing die with none neck turned brass is to reduce the amount that the neck is sized down so when the expander ball is pulled back through it doesn't have to open the neck very much to get the proper ID for good neck tension. This helps reduce run-out greatly since most run-out is induced during the expanding operation. A regular sizing die sizes the neck so small that the expander ball pulls the neck off center during expansion, this doesn't happen when using a bushing die that sizes the neck only .001-2" smaller than the expander ball.

So you still want to use the expander ball, just size the neck so the expander only has to open the neck ~.001" to set the proper neck ID, you will get the most consistency from your none turned brass this way.

 

[EXSOCAL]

Re: The Redding Carbide Expander Ball re-visited....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You still have to use an expander ball with none neck turned brass, you don't want the OD of the neck set to any certain bushing size, you want the ID of the necks all set to the same size and that can only be done with an expander ball.

The point of a bushing die with none neck turned brass is to reduce the amount that the neck is sized down so when the expander ball is pulled back through it doesn't have to open the neck very much to get the proper ID for good neck tension. This helps reduce run-out greatly since most run-out is induced during the expanding operation. A regular sizing die sizes the neck so small that the expander ball pulls the neck off center during expansion, this doesn't happen when using a bushing die that sizes the neck only .001-2" smaller than the expander ball.

So you still want to use the expander ball, just size the neck so the expander only has to open the neck ~.001" to set the proper neck ID, you will get the most consistency from your none turned brass this way. </div></div>

Makes sense, I am headed up to shoot a couple ladder tests Friday at 400, and shoot some groups Sat. at the indoor 100 yd. range. Ill post my results.

 

[Jordan Moffatt]

Picking up expander balls for 6.5 and 7mm. Thank you for your experience.

 

[jasont]

I grasp the concept, he’ll I have the carbide expander ball kit. My problem is I can’t get the old expander off of the shaft. What’s the secret there

 

[Aftermath]

I grasp the concept, he’ll I have the carbide expander ball kit. My problem is I can’t get the old expander off of the shaft. What’s the secret there

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.

 

[jasont]

Yea it’s stuck on there good. To right for my bare hands. Might just have to get a new stem, cause I see the vice in this ones future

 

[smoothy8500]

Wrap the shaft in a piece of inner tube or leather before sticking it in the vise. I wonder what "vices" this shaft has....Mines are alcohol and internet porn.

 

[jasont]

Got it out. Just a bit of rubber belt and a vise