the strangest group i have ever seen

[corey4]

took the 308 on a date this morning.

i put a new scope on, new rings, new bipod so i was playing around with the adjustments on my mcree chassis to get it set back up from the old scope, rings, and bipod.

anyways, shoot this 10 shot group at 200yds. when i drove to the target line, i had this:

 

[shovelstrokeed]

Inconsistent:
a. Sight picture = focus on target
b. Parallax slightly off
c. Cheek weld - Either LOP or height.

 

[pmclaine]

Definite sign of coreolis effect.

Are you a ninja that fired this while doing a backflip or other Matrix type move. If so, typical expectation of shot pattern.......for me anyway.

 

[Ledzep]

Very consistently non-concentric bullets?

 

[ShtrRdy]

I'd like to see you do that again!!

 

[gstaylorg]

It was the piece of lodestone (or kryptonite) directly behind your target.

 

[pmclaine]

It was the piece of lodestone....behind your target.

Really!? Are you saying he shot his lode?

 

[LongRangeSweden]

Definite sign of coreolis effect.

Are you a ninja that fired this while doing a backflip or other Matrix type move. If so, typical expectation of shot pattern.......for me anyway.

 

[bigbear_98]

Inconsistent:
a. Sight picture = focus on target
b. Parallax slightly off
c. Cheek weld - Either LOP or height.

I would say a or b. I bet you had pretty good mirage that affected your focus. I had this happen at 200 before. I was shooting at a 1" dot. The dot was bouncing all over the place. I thought I was holding where the dot was stopping. When I went down range I had a target that looks just like yours.

 

[corey4]

Inconsistent:
a. Sight picture = focus on target
b. Parallax slightly off
c. Cheek weld - Either LOP or height.

when i was adjusting my chassis, i played around with the butt pad height. i was nice and cozy during the dry fire, but i wasn't comfortable when i was shooting trying to control the recoil.

 

[corey4]

Inconsistent:
a. Sight picture = focus on target
b. Parallax slightly off
c. Cheek weld - Either LOP or height.

I would say a or b. I bet you had pretty good mirage that affected your focus. I had this happen at 200 before. I was shooting at a 1" dot. The dot was bouncing all over the place. I thought I was holding where the dot was stopping. When I went down range I had a target that looks just like yours.

i didn't have any mirage. if i did, then it was subtle enough for me to not pick up on. i am still pretty new at this. all shots were taken on 8x.

i didn't think to check at the time, but i am thinking parallax and my new butt pad height, which i put back to the original spot.

 

[corey4]

at least it was a sub MOA, right?

 

[bigbear_98]

i didn't have any mirage. if i did, then it was subtle enough for me to not pick up on. i am still pretty new at this. all shots were taken on 8x.

i didn't think to check at the time, but i am thinking parallax and my new butt pad height, which i put back to the original spot.

I was shooting at 22x. I could see the mirage very clearly and was watching the target bounce. I personally found if shooting for groups, my group size gets better with more magnification as I can focus on a more precise point. I also learned from one of the local f class guys that if you hold the crosshairs on the side and bottom of a circle it gives you a more precise aiming point. Then you adjust your elevation and Windage the 1/2" or whatever to put your shot center, without shooting out your aiming point.

 

[corey4]

I was shooting at 22x. I could see the mirage very clearly and was watching the target bounce. I personally found if shooting for groups, my group size gets better with more magnification as I can focus on a more precise point. I also learned from one of the local f class guys that if you hold the crosshairs on the side and bottom of a circle it gives you a more precise aiming point. Then you adjust your elevation and Windage the 1/2" or whatever to put your shot center, without shooting out your aiming point.

i don't like shooting on too high of magnification, for now anyway.

i like the idea of holding just off center. i'm gonna give that a try.

after i shoot the circle group, i moved over to 300 and was shooting at clays on the berm. i couldn't hit shit. after i moved the butt down to were it was, i was back hitting the clays with regular success. so i am assuming what shovel said, poor cheek weld due to the butt pad being in the wrong spot.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Here's what we know for sure: shots went where the barrel was pointed and shots did not go where aimed. Who knows why? Thing is we do not need to know why. The shooter must only concentrate on what is needed to hit where aimed, i.e. consistent sight alignment, trigger control, and consistent control over the rifle while executing the two firing tasks. To discern the cause of error from shot to shot the shooter should record conditions and all calls and shots in a data book.

 

[bigbear_98]

Here's what we know for sure: shots went where the barrel was pointed and shots did not go where aimed. Who knows why? Thing is we do not need to know why. The shooter must only concentrate on what is needed to hit where aimed, i.e. consistent sight alignment, trigger control, and consistent control over the rifle while executing the two firing tasks. To discern the cause of error from shot to shot the shooter should record conditions and all calls and shots in a data book.

Your post contradicts itself. You take notes to know what the conditions were to know cause and affect. You most certainly need to know why you make a bad shot or you would continue to practice the wrong thing.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Your post contradicts itself. You take notes to know what the conditions were to know cause and affect. You most certainly need to know why you make a bad shot or you would continue to practice the wrong thing.

Since all shooter error is caused by inconsistency and not countering correctly for effects on trajectory, the shooter does not need to identify the cause of a bad shot. He only needs to concentrate on what it is that needs to be achieved, i.e. consistency and correctly countering for effects on trajectory. If the shooter can identify the cause of error through observation, call/strike corollary, or grouping assessment then results for works in progress will be hastened; but, since a group indicates a multitude of errors, making isolation of the possible causes of shot misplacement difficult, simply concentrating on proper application of the fundamentals will address all possible causes for shooter error.

 

[bigbear_98]

Since all shooter error is caused by inconsistency and not countering correctly for effects on trajectory, the shooter does not need to identify the cause of a bad shot. He only needs to concentrate on what it is that needs to be achieved, i.e. consistency and correctly countering for effects on trajectory. If the shooter can identify the cause of error through observation, call/strike corollary, or grouping assessment then results for works in progress will be hastened; but, since a group indicates a multitude of errors, making isolation of the possible causes of shot misplacement difficult, simply concentrating on proper application of the fundamentals will address all possible causes for shooter error.

I cannot disagree with your paragraph, but I think it should be noted that things like poor focus, poor parallax adjustment, and not understanding mirage can be hard for a beginner to understand. If all the physical fundamentals are followed perfectly, but the shooter doesn't understand that a target looks to be in a place where it is not and aims where they believe the target to be, the shot will miss the target. This, I believe, is covered under your statement of "correctly countering for effects on trajectory", but it can be perplexing. I have gone through this personally.

 

[gstaylorg]

corey4 - in all seriousness, I wouldn't worry too much about the appearance of that group. You put 10 shots into just a tick over 3/4 MOA at 200 yard and everyone wants to tell you what you did wrong. I'd say you did a lot right. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is, we all have room for improvement. But all in all, 10 shots in 1.5" at 200 yd is some pretty decent shooting. I'd be willing to bet many of those trying to tell you what you did wrong would be hard pressed to do any better. As far as the odd shape goes, if you can do it a couple more times it might mean something. Otherwise the shape is probably just a fluke.

My only suggestion for you would be a good spotting scope. Maybe I took it incorrectly, but it sounds as though you weren't really able to see what you had done until you drove out to the target. If you aren't able to see the holes in regular paper targets at 200 yd through your rifle scope, I would suggest either using a Shoot-N-C type target or having a decent spotting scope next to you. It can make evaluation of your shooting much faster, easier, and more effective, as you don't need to wait to see where you hit. In any case, very good shooting!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I cannot disagree with your paragraph, but I think it should be noted that things like poor focus, poor parallax adjustment, and not understanding mirage can be hard for a beginner to understand. If all the physical fundamentals are followed perfectly, but the shooter doesn't understand that a target looks to be in a place where it is not and aims where they believe the target to be, the shot will miss the target. This, I believe, is covered under your statement of "correctly countering for effects on trajectory", but it can be perplexing. I have gone through this personally.

I work with beginners; and, even when they come to understand what's important to good shooting, they still seldom execute as desired, since everything important to good shooting is too much to integrate within an initial exposure. This is why focus should be on the principles of marksmanship, sight alignment and trigger control. Thing is, for some, learning how to simply execute the two firing tasks properly will require a coach to reinforce smooth trigger control and to make something out of "how did that shot look".


Understanding a consistent target/sight relationship is about picture memory development, as well as technique (hold), which is more about strategy than marksmanship. For example, in LR shooting, a strategy for aim might be to hold on something for which a consistent hold can be better discerned than the actual target, and adjusting sights to off set hold off. This sort of learning does not need to be processed while in the act of firing as do shooter errors related to motor memory that are revealed in the process of shooting.

 

[bigbear_98]

Corey, were you looking to figure out why your group could look like it does, or just showing everyone? If the latter please pardon the assumption that I made in giving you the reason I thought the target looks the way it does. If the first, I still believe the image appeared to be different than where the target actually was. This is only my opinion. Your group size is good which leads me to believe your fundamentals are good.

 

[corey4]

Corey, were you looking to figure out why your group could look like it does, or just showing everyone? If the latter please pardon the assumption that I made in giving you the reason I thought the target looks the way it does. If the first, I still believe the image appeared to be different than where the target actually was. This is only my opinion. Your group size is good which leads me to believe your fundamentals are good.

i posted the group for both reasons. no need to apologize. i have been following the replies and learning from them.

it is going to be a few more weeks before i can make it back out to the range. too much work and not enough range time!

 

[0311 Hesco]

From what I understand to be doctrine like said before, it looks like you might have been focusing on the target and not the crosshair and your zero is low left. (either from never attaining a "true" zero or maybe the adjustments you made to the stock along with a little parallax caused it.) Either way, next time you shoot it, think about focusing on the crosshair vs. "not looking at the target" Seems the same but when you have a set motion from when you get down behind the rifle to the time you squeeze the trigger, it's best to think about what to do (in the order necessary) instead of what not to do.

Look around on here (especially semi-auto section) as well as anywhere else people post groups. You'll find that they start making a great group then the last shot they throw it. (I do it too) but its because we are more focused on the end result vs. what we actually need to do to attain it. It's not anything else. The barrel didn't all of the sudden come loose or the crown wore off enough to throw the shot. 99.9999999% of the time it's the shooter. "Eyes on the prize" is good, as long as your mind is on the process to get there. (Further reading: With Winning in Mind)

 

[corey4]

corey4 - in all seriousness, I wouldn't worry too much about the appearance of that group. You put 10 shots into just a tick over 3/4 MOA at 200 yard and everyone wants to tell you what you did wrong. I'd say you did a lot right. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is, we all have room for improvement. But all in all, 10 shots in 1.5" at 200 yd is some pretty decent shooting. I'd be willing to bet many of those trying to tell you what you did wrong would be hard pressed to do any better. As far as the odd shape goes, if you can do it a couple more times it might mean something. Otherwise the shape is probably just a fluke.

My only suggestion for you would be a good spotting scope. Maybe I took it incorrectly, but it sounds as though you weren't really able to see what you had done until you drove out to the target. If you aren't able to see the holes in regular paper targets at 200 yd through your rifle scope, I would suggest either using a Shoot-N-C type target or having a decent spotting scope next to you. It can make evaluation of your shooting much faster, easier, and more effective, as you don't need to wait to see where you hit. In any case, very good shooting!

i think it was just a fluke. if it is matters, the rifle is a 20" 5R, 308 168gr FGMM, vortex razor scope, mcree chassis, TBAC can, atlas bipod.

i shoot at low magnification because...well...i duno! lol maybe because of less reticle movement at lower power compared to higher power? sometimes i mind fuck myself when i can see all my hits. not sure if this makes sense.

thanks for the compliments.

 

[corey4]

From what I understand to be doctrine like said before, it looks like you might have been focusing on the target and not the crosshair and your zero is low left. (either from never attaining a "true" zero or maybe the adjustments you made to the stock along with a little parallax caused it.) Either way, next time you shoot it, think about focusing on the crosshair vs. "not looking at the target" Seems the same but when you have a set motion from when you get down behind the rifle to the time you squeeze the trigger, it's best to think about what to do (in the order necessary) instead of what not to do.

Look around on here (especially semi-auto section) as well as anywhere else people post groups. You'll find that they start making a great group then the last shot they throw it. (I do it too) but its because we are more focused on the end result vs. what we actually need to do to attain it. It's not anything else. The barrel didn't all of the sudden come loose or the crown wore off enough to throw the shot. 99.9999999% of the time it's the shooter. "Eyes on the prize" is good, as long as your mind is on the process to get there. (Further reading: With Winning in Mind)

i throw shots all the time. it pisses me off!

here is a pic of one from awhile ago.

 

[duhk23]

I think you should head to the county fair and play the BB gun game, and then go home and adjust parallax