The truth about M5 bottom metal in BDL inlet?

[Solid7]

So I see straight up contradictory info on putting M5 bottom metal in BDL inlets.

Some places say, "Nope, requires inletting". Then you have some gunsmiths who post videos, showing that they straight dropped in the M5 bottom metal. Thing is, they talk about the subject with full knowledge, and assume that everyone knows the problem areas. (I'm familiar with Rem 700s, but not quite sure how to compare info that I don't have)

What the actual hell? Why, or why does it not, fit? That's the one thing that I can't get a straight answer about. I've even tried contacting several manufacturers, to understand what the compatibility issues are. But I don't have a pile of stocks, actions, and bottom metal, lying around (haven't been a gunsmith for 20+ years). I'm looking at obtaining a Hawkins DBM trigger guard. I really don't want to do any stock work. So if there's a trick, I'm listening...

 

[Supersubes]

The devil is in the details. The hawkins page says their DBM fits M5 inlets, no reason to believe thats not true. You need to order a stock with the m5 inlet, or alter what you have to an m5 inlet. One thing is for certain, a true Badger M5 is way bigger in every dimension than a remington BDL inlet. You never even mentioned what stock you wanted to use. Details bro!

 

[Solid7]

The devil is in the details. The hawkins page says their DBM fits M5 inlets, no reason to believe thats not true. You need to order a stock with the m5 inlet, or alter what you have to an m5 inlet. One thing is for certain, a true Badger M5 is way bigger in every dimension than a remington BDL inlet. You never even mentioned what stock you wanted to use. Details bro!

Well, the detail that I know, is the BDL inlet. But for what it's worth, it's... wait for it... a "BDL" stock!

 

[Solid7]

And the few videos that I've seen with the contrary advice, show a BDL stock...

 

[Supersubes]

Well, the detail that I know, is the BDL inlet. But for what it's worth, it's... wait for it... a "BDL" stock!

There you go again, lack of detail. Not all stocks have enough meat to put an m5 in. You can be a smart ass if you want, but dont expect solid info.

Badger ordinance install of an m5 bottom
Metal.

 

[spife7980]

It’s a bdl stock, so which bdl is it cut for? There’s many different types.

You seem to think it’s a one to one relationship, it isn’t. You need to know what you actually have and what you want.

 

[Solid7]

There you go again, lack of detail. Not all stocks have enough meat to put an m5 in. You can be a smart ass if you want, but dont expect solid info.

Badger ordinance install of an m5 bottom
Metal.

Not a Badger Ordinance. Looking for info on a Hawkins, as stated. That's the reference. And the inlet is BDL. And the stock is an HS Precision, Varmint Synthetic. Which I don't recall being any different than the plastic or wood geometry.

Was only being a smartass because I was trying to match your vibe. Thought we'd understand one another. Apparently not. Anyway, try to think of this as being less about me, and more a resource for others. If there's some sort of matrix about what combination of inlet, stock, etc, mesh up with one another, that's good, too. Cause I've not had a lot of experience with M5 inletting, so I immediately lack the resources to do a comparative analysis on. (which I could, if I had)

 

[Buzzinga]

Just a suggestion, call HS Precision and ask them. FWIW, I just sent a Manners T2 back to them to have the BDL re-cut to the larger dimensions of an M5 inlet so I can use a Hawkins M5 bottom metal.

 

[kl3309]

Not a Badger Ordinance. Looking for info on a Hawkins, as stated...

An M5 inlet is an M5 inlet, and if it fits one M5 DBM, then it will fit any M5 DBM. It will not fit into a BDL cut.

 

[Solid7]

Sure, that's a fair statement.

Does anyone know what are these geometries that supposedly work as drop in? God, I wish I had bookmarked those videos...

 

[Buzzinga]

Tomorrow, Monday, when businesses are open, call HS Precision, ask them if they can re-cut the bottom of your stock to accept the Hawkins M5 bottom metal. If they say no, call LRI and ask them. If they also say no, then it really can't be done. Or sell your HS Precision stock and buy a Manners, McMillan, or some chassis that already accepts mags.

HS Precision = 605-341-3006
Long Rifles Inc = 605.490.2561

GUNSMITHING SERVICES: Detachable Bottom Metal Installation

LRI's reliance upon 3D computer generated tool paths provides for a neat, clean, and precise installation of a DBM system. Our unique process does not rely upon bedding the DBM into the stock. Instead we machine it 1:1 by taking advantage of powerful software and automation. We've gone a step...

www.longriflesinc.com

Good Luck bro!

 

[1moaoff]

There is no guarantee on fit or function until you try to put them together.
Action ( you haven't specified) + stock (available in many options) + bottom metal (many options) + magazine+ bedding+ trigger...

Do you see why you are getting the responses you are? We aren't trying to be mean but spoon feeding you information is not how this goes.

Most depends on what you spec when you buy it. The rest on tolerances and what you will accept.

Alot of it may depend on the level of fit and finish acceptable to you!

Call HS precision and ask them.

 

[Solid7]

Action ( you haven't specified) + stock (available in many options) + bottom metal (many options) + magazine+ bedding+ trigger...

It's stock BDL in a VS stock!

No sense in replying. I get it. Just want to stick bottom metal on a VS setup. Not building a show winner. It either drops in, or it doesn't.

I'm gonna make calls tomorrow. It would be nice if I could just hear from someone whose gone through it, already. But I get it.

 

[BigPrince]

There are two general inlets -
M5 (larger)
BDL (smaller)

Can't git larger metal in smaller hole. Google is your friend. Hawkins Precision makes multiple kinds of bottom metal that can go from big to small but not the other way around. There are other manufacturers that have their own proprietary systems for BDL that can be used to fit a detachable mag in a bdl inlet but you'll be using their mags and not the standard AI type mags as they are too big for a BDL inlet. HS Precision makes one.

Not sure what a VS stock is so making calls is a good bet.

 

[Buzzinga]

I went back and read your initial post and I will try to answer your specific question stated at the end of your first post. No, you cannot do a direct one to one replacement of your bottom metal from the HS Precision stock with BDL to a Hawkins Precision M5 bottom metal without modifying the stock to have a larger inlet for the M5. In other words, it will not just drop in.

 

[kl3309]

It's stock BDL in a VS stock!

No sense in replying. I get it. Just want to stick bottom metal on a VS setup. Not building a show winner. It either drops in, or it doesn't.

I'm gonna make calls tomorrow. It would be nice if I could just hear from someone whose gone through it, already. But I get it.

Just a suggestion, call HS Precision and ask them. FWIW, I just sent a Manners T2 back to them to have the BDL re-cut to the larger dimensions of an M5 inlet so I can use a Hawkins M5 bottom metal.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I've taken a while to craft this response but it is what it is. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that he's got a short action Remington 700 as the OP has mentioned he has a HS Precision Varmint Synthetic and he's looking to use a Hawkins M5 DBM. So for argument's sake let's just say the bedding is the stock aluminum bedding block in the stock and he's using the stock Remington trigger.

Now, the HSP Varmint Synthetic should have enough meat in it that you'll be able to have it inlet for the M5 DBM and any gunsmith worth his salt should be able to make that happen. Any of the good smiths on here will probably have it programmed into their mill and cost less than $100. I had a B&C stock (similar in construction as the HSP) done by GA Precision years ago and it came out fine. It functioned 100% with a Badger M5 DBM.

Something to understand is that when going from a BDL to a M5 DBM footprint it isn't just the physical size differences, but both of them have differences in the pillar length as well. When inletting the HS Precision or B&C stocks it's going to require milling that's going to get into the aluminum skeleton to be able to accept the wider AICS mags. it's also going to require milling the bedding pillars down so the M5 can be seated deeper into the stock and get the magazine at the right height for proper functioning. For the M5's the rear pillar is 1.07" tall and the front is .72" tall, which is why M5 compatible systems come with their own pillars and action screws.

The only DBM systems that I can think of that will drop into your BDL inlet are the HS Precision and Wyatt's detachable box magazine set ups. These use their own proprietary magazines though, which is one reason they aren't as popular compared to AICS compatible set ups.

 

[Solid7]

So the real problem here - is that I didn't capture the (2) videos that I saw, with someone claiming to drop in an aftermarket bottom metal. Maybe, in some idealized world in my brain, I was thinking that somebody would have a clue what I was talking about, in lieu of empirical evidence. Instead, I got the typical "hit and run" replies from the "everyone is stupider than me" crowd. That's on me. But I'm glad to see that you're all doing well on a Sunday...

@Buzzinga - thanks for your replies.

 

[Solid7]

I've taken a while to craft this response but it is what it is. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that he's got a short action Remington 700 as the OP has mentioned he has a HS Precision Varmint Synthetic and he's looking to use a Hawkins M5 DBM. So for argument's sake let's just say the bedding is the stock aluminum bedding block in the stock and he's using the stock Remington trigger.

Now, the HSP Varmint Synthetic should have enough meat in it that you'll be able to have it inlet for the M5 DBM and any gunsmith worth his salt should be able to make that happen. Any of the good smiths on here will probably have it programmed into their mill and cost less than $100. I had a B&C stock (similar in construction as the HSP) done by GA Precision years ago and it came out fine. It functioned 100% with a Badger M5 DBM.

Something to understand is that when going from a BDL to a M5 DBM footprint it isn't just the physical size differences, but both of them have differences in the pillar length as well. When inletting the HS Precision or B&C stocks it's going to require milling that's going to get into the aluminum skeleton to be able to accept the wider AICS mags. it's also going to require milling the bedding pillars down so the M5 can be seated deeper into the stock and get the magazine at the right height for proper functioning. For the M5's the rear pillar is 1.07" tall and the front is .72" tall, which is why M5 compatible systems come with their own pillars and action screws.

The only DBM systems that I can think of that will drop into your BDL inlet are the HS Precision and Wyatt's detachable box magazine set ups. These use their own proprietary magazines though, which is one reason they aren't as popular compared to AICS compatible set ups.

Thanks for your reply. Actually quite appreciated... Without having the M5 in front of me, the pillar dimension was a complete unknown. And it wouldn't be hard to make sense of why that doesn't work.

 

[BigPrince]

You probably saw a video of one of the proprietary systems like HS Precision. Sorry for trying to be helpful. Good luck.

 

[Solid7]

The only DBM systems that I can think of that will drop into your BDL inlet are the HS Precision and Wyatt's detachable box magazine set ups. These use their own proprietary magazines though, which is one reason they aren't as popular compared to AICS compatible set ups.

Even the HS precision requires modification to drop into a VS stock. The HS Precision bottom metal is compatible with depth and profile of a BDL inlet, but the BDL inlet is noticeably missing the magazine release notches.

 

[Solid7]

You probably saw a video of one of the proprietary systems like HS Precision. Sorry for trying to be helpful. Good luck.

Nah, you're good. I didn't see your reply before. I actually made my last reply in the overlap with you.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

There are some BDL drop in conversions, but they don't use AICS patern mags. They either use a proprietary mag or an AI pattern SSSF mag (single stack single feed...AICS are double stack single feed).

The M5 and the BDL aren't compatible at all, but close enough that they can be done free hand on a milling machine without any drama. They are close enough that you could use a dremel, chisel and sandpaper if you were careful.

It has been done many times before. Just depends on how professionally you want it done. Acraglass and paint cover a mutitude of sins.

 

[1moaoff]

My post wasn't a hit and run. It was serious.
I even gave you the fact the components have to match. And all the components not just 2 of them!

You said you watched videos but can't post them... you said it wasn't clear who was right. Being right is with there set of circumstances. We are trying to help but you want an answer that isn't that simple and it doesn't make sense to us.
None of us here have your parts in our hands to measure.

Best of luck!

 

[Solid7]

My post wasn't a hit and run. It was serious.
I even gave you the fact the components have to match. And all the components not just 2 of them!

You said you watched videos but can't post them... you said it wasn't clear who was right. Being right is with there set of circumstances. We are trying to help but you want an answer that isn't that simple and it doesn't make sense to us.
None of us here have your parts in our hands to measure.

Best of luck!

I'm not here to be more right than anyone. I'm just gonna extend an olive branch, and say, let's agree/align on something else, some other day.

One never knows what kind of answer they're gonna get in mixed company. With that in mind, I was hoping that somebody spoke my language, and could fast track me. I don't have tons of time, and asking the question was basically free. No harm, no foul. It's not a big deal.

 

[Solid7]

It has been done many times before. Just depends on how professionally you want it done. Acraglass and paint cover a mutitude of sins.

Yeah, I figured so. That's also kind of what I was looking for, because I don't have the parts in hand yet, but I have 2 other guns that use a Manners mini-chassis with AI type mags. So it probably just makes sense, regardless.

 

[Earnhardt]

First 2 photos are a REM 700 long action HS Sendero stock, with a BDL opening and a BDL set-up...

The last 2 photos are the same HS Sendero long action stock but with a Wyatt’s DBM

The Wyatt’s DBM uses proprietary
magazines. Only Wyatt’s mags will fit in the Wyatt’s DBM

 

[Earnhardt]

This photo is a pic of a long action McMillan stock with an M5 DBM opening, with a Remington BDL setup in it. Notice the gaps all the way around the BDL as it sits in the M5 opening.

 

[Solid7]

Aha.

Pretty much settles the matter. No way in hell one drops into the other.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Solid7]

I must have totally misunderstood something in those videos.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Having seen and corrected a number of homebrew M5 inlet jobs, I strongly urge you to send it off and it professionally done. Most places charge $75. I recommend River's Bend Gun Company, Jeff does all of Badger Ord's m5 inletting (and other ops)......top notch quality, great communication, and all around good guy and rifle builder.

Ern

 

[1moaoff]

Op, I did a little digging and suspect I have found where your confusion comes from.

Web search shows videos of guys doing something similar but not exactly what you are referring to I think. Part of the problem is I think they are incorrectly identifying their components or don't know. Also I pulled this off of hawkins site.

And I was a sarcastic in my first post. So ill own that.

 

[Solid7]

And I was a sarcastic in my first post. So ill own that.

Man, I've seen you around, and I know you're a good dude, so it's not even a thing. I was also a smartass, like you said. Cause that's what I am. But seriously, I was just trying to ask the question in the best way that I know how, because I honestly know nothing. As I explained to someone in a PM, I used to build guns, but I've been out of all shooting for a very long time. I'm just getting back in, and finding that I don't speak about things as intuitively as I sometimes think I do. Almost ALL of my past work was Remington 700, in the days before M5 inlets were really a thing. (and I've only recently owned my first custom action of any kind) Literally, the only option that I had back in the day, was the aforementioned HS Precision bottom metal. So my head is kind of swimming with the catching up. A lot of you guys are PRS guys, too, and that's a whole other chapter for me to learn. I used to build Hunter Benchrest, and that's a dinosaur, now.

Thanks for sticking it out, and for the info.

 

[Supersubes]

Aha.

Pretty much settles the matter. No way in hell one drops into the other.

Thanks for the clarification.

That was sorted out in the very first response to your original post.

 

[Solid7]

That was sorted out in the very first response to your original post.

You must be one of those guys that reads Playboy for the articles.

 

[Supersubes]

You must be one of those guys that reads Playboy for the articles.

Thats right, i dont need pictures to figure out where the parts are, unlike yourself.

 

[Solid7]

Thats right, i dont need pictures to figure out where the parts are, unlike yourself.

I don't doubt that your experience IS purely academic. But you might be surprised at how much easier it is to communicate with a picture, to other people who don't constantly have their own parts in their hand... (since you want to go there)

Don't get bent if you swoop in with a dick-ish tone, and somebody returns it. That's snowflake stuff. What the actual fuck did you think was gonna happen? You were gonna gain some new found respect? We can laugh this off, or you can just go on trying to teach me lessons. Whatever you like, man.

And by that, I mean last word is yours. Make it a good one, at least. (cause that last one was my grandfather's joke)

 

[Solid7]

The Wyatt’s DBM uses proprietary
magazines. Only Wyatt’s mags will fit in the Wyatt’s DBM

Thank you for taking your time to post that for my edification. I definitely want to stay away from proprietary mags. Going with the AI. Pics are worth a thousand words, to a person who hasn't seen the issue in question, firsthand.

 

[Earnhardt]

The Wyatt’s DBM and mag are good quality.
The max COAL in the Wyatt’s mag is 3.72”, and the max in my CIP mag is 3.75”, I think.
But ya, you will only be using the Wyatt’s mags in the Wyatt’s DBM

 

[Long Range 338]

I'm gonna crash this thread with a similar question since it is very related:

I want to use a Nucleus short action in a hunting setup. Per ARC's info this has to be magazine fed as factory dbm won't work. would the following options work in a bdl style stock?

-HS Precision stock with their proprietary mags?
-Wyatts bottom metal and mags
-any other options I'm not aware of

 

[TurdFerguson]

I'm gonna crash this thread with a similar question since it is very related:

I want to use a Nucleus short action in a hunting setup. Per ARC's info this has to be magazine fed as factory dbm won't work. would the following options work in a bdl style stock?

-HS Precision stock with their proprietary mags?
-Wyatts bottom metal and mags
-any other options I'm not aware of

I am assuming you mean a standard 700 stock inletted for a BDL hinged floorplate when you say "Factory DBM". There is only enough room in there with that standard inlet for a single stack magazine hence H&S and others. Bolt geometry and what not may not play nicely with those mags while feeding. You'd need to call them....

BUT

Save your money and skip the H&S precision or Wyatts proprietary systems. The H&S is 300 some bucks and you can get your stock inletted for an M5 DBM+ the DBM (Greyboe, Hawkins, PTG ect)+ a few mags for the same price. If those companies go tits up or decide to quit supporting the mag you're SOL. With the AICS pattern DBM you have a plethora of manufactures selling mags.

 

[1moaoff]

If sending out for that work contact LRI. They have a newer bottom metal in house and MAY be able to fit it

 

[Solid7]

If sending out for that work contact LRI. They have a newer bottom metal in house and MAY be able to fit it

I definitely appreciate recommendations, and like to support those who are trusted. In this particular case, I have another custom rifle in works, and my guy said he does these on the regular.

I'm gonna file LRI for future projects. I did take a look at their offerings, and will probably reach out to them by phone for a "meet and greet" (cause I'm old school, and like to do that kind of thing)

 

[WT1]

This is a great thread. I'm looking at Hawkins M5 DBM as well. Wondering where a good gunsmith in Wisconsin area or midwest is that will do the inlet and or can it be done with a Dremel if careful? Rem 700 HS Precision Short Action stock from a Light Tactical Rifle. I've contact HS Precision to see if the stock is compatible with the Hawkins DBM and Hawkins as well to see what is needed. A pattern showing what needs to come out, such as a CNC program, might be handy.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I’d send it out, it might not be cheaper but it’ll be done right and look clean compared to hacking at it with a Dremel. That HS stock should have enough meat for a DBM but it’ll require machining into the aluminum chassis which why I’d prefer to have it done on a mill.