the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

[Tangodown911]

The 175SMK are quite the popular favorite amongst many. With all things considered which is the flattest shooting period. 155s, 175s, 185s, 200s etc.????

I have looked at all the numbers for just about all the long range shooting tips, and I keep coming back to the 185 Berger BTLR. I'm sure we have all pondered on this at one time or another. What are you guys using? Please share.

 

[chrisj]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

The 155 Lapua in my experience is definately the flatest shooting .30 bullet with the Berger 155.5 right there too. The 185 Berger with a 1/12" twist is a number of rifles incl. my AI AE was the best bullet in terms of wind.

 

[bohem]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Flattest shooting is probably the 155 Scenar, however, the least wind drift that gets used in a 308 would be something from the 210gr class. 208 Amax, 210 Berger or Swampworks (JLK) VLD's will beat the others in wind.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Since you did not specify which 30 cal case, I will presume your talking about the 308 Winchester.

If so, flat shooting and 308 Winchester cannot co-exist in the same sentence. The ole 308 is like a trebuchet launching rocks over castle walls.

However, the answer to your questions is just several mouse clicks away. Google JBM Ballistics; find the calculator called Trajectory Simplified; using the bullet library links marked (Litz) and you will be using the G7's BC's Bryan Litz computed.

Plug in your velocity estimates, altitude, and compare away.

For the short version, flat shooting means elevation. A 155 at velocity, will be more flat shooting, than anything heavier. However, windage is the killer, and the higher the G7 BC is, the better it will buck wind.

So a 185 gr Berger, out of any good 30 cal cartridge, will require more elevation than a Berger 155 that is driven faster and will be less flat shooting; but will require less windage.

Perhaps some time will be well spent in understanding external ballistics, if you going to shoot LR in the future. Just saying......

Bob

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you did not specify which 30 cal case, I will presume your talking about the 308 Winchester.

If so, flat shooting and 308 Winchester cannot co-exist in the same sentence. The ole 308 is like a trebuchet launching rocks over castle walls.

However, the answer to your questions is just several mouse clicks away. Google JBM Ballistics; find the calculator called Trajectory Simplified; using the bullet library links marked (Litz) and you will be using the G7's BC's Bryan Litz computed.

Plug in your velocity estimates, altitude, and compare away.

For the short version, flat shooting means elevation. A 155 at velocity, will be more flat shooting, than anything heavier. However, windage is the killer, and the higher the G7 BC is, the better it will buck wind.

So a 185 gr Berger, out of any good 30 cal cartridge, will require more elevation than a Berger 155 that is driven faster and will be less flat shooting; but will require less windage.

Perhaps some time will be well spent in understanding external ballistics, if you going to shoot LR in the future. Just saying......

Bob

</div></div>

Thanks Bob. I've been doing that and .308 was in the title.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

tangodown911,

Ok, understood. But I'm sure you also understand that .308 is a diameter of a bullet, and .308 Winchester is a cartridge. So I was not sure of which you were speaking.

In any event, I use the 155.5 Berger Fullbore in my 20" barreled .308 Winchester. I have a good load, that is accurate and works at just over 2800 FPS.

My 1k yd numbers for the Berger 155.5 @ 2802 FPS are:

Drop 9.6 Mils (346.3") Windage @10mph 2.6 Mils (93.5")

If I was going to do a do over, with the Berger 185 LRBT (non VLD) @ 2600 FPS, it would look like this:

Drop 10.1 Mils (362.4") Windage @10mph 2.2 Mils (80.3)

On paper the 185 grain Berger LRBT looks way better with 13" less defection at range.

But I'm in the process of scraping my .308 Barrel, and going the 7mm-08 route, to get my windage numbers south of 2.0 Mils (70").

But if I was to work up a new .308 Winchester load in a 1-12" or less twist barrel, I would give the 185 Grain Berger LRBT (non VLD) a serious look.


Hope that fully answers your question.

Bob

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Thanks for the info. What is special about the "full bore" 155.5? Or should I ask how is it different from the standard 155 target LR?

 

[bohem]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info. What is special about the "full bore" 155.5? Or should I ask how is it different from the standard 155 target LR? </div></div>

Bryan Litz is probably the best person to answer that, but from what I remember, the "full bore" is designed as an updated bullet to wring out the last %'s of performance for Palma shooters

 

[BobinNC]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info. What is special about the "full bore" 155.5? Or should I ask how is it different from the standard 155 target LR? </div></div>

Here's an article by Bryan on the Full Bore Concept:

Applied Ballistics

Bob

 

[Dirty D]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info. What is special about the "full bore" 155.5? Or should I ask how is it different from the standard 155 target LR? </div></div>

Here's an article by Bryan on the Full Bore Concept:

Applied Ballistics

Bob </div></div>

Tag for when I have time to read the full article, thanks for the info.

What rate are you? Signed an ex MK.

 

[aron]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Thanks for the useful article Bob

 

[BobinNC]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info. What is special about the "full bore" 155.5? Or should I ask how is it different from the standard 155 target LR? </div></div>

Here's an article by Bryan on the Full Bore Concept:

Applied Ballistics

Bob </div></div>

Tag for when I have time to read the full article, thanks for the info.

What rate are you? Signed an ex MK. </div></div>

Was a QM2.....Long time ago

Bob

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 175SMK are quite the popular favorite amongst many. With all things considered which is the flattest shooting period. 155s, 175s, 185s, 200s etc.???? </div></div>

Why are you worried about the flattest shooting?

Range is the variable you have the most control over. It is also the easiest to measure and if neither you or the target are moving it becomes a constant for that firing position.

If you are tying to select a load that gives you the best chance of hitting a long range target, I suggest you find which is the best for wind drift.

If I need to keep them mag length, 175 SMK's are what I use. They buck the wind a little better than 155 Scenars and I don't need to drive them as hard. Many are experimenting with the 208gr AMAX, but to get the most out of it, it needs to me loaded long to keep the case capacity.

If you need something that is flat shooting, you need to look somewhere other than the .308 Winchester.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Yep, the 180 soft point is the wild card. The rest are not material differences to note. and nothing at short range.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

I would recommend running the numbers on the 178gr Superformance.

Guys with 26" barrels were getting over 2800fps, plus it's got a high BC.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but out the short barrels I was getting 2750fps.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

 

[Lowlight]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

That doesn't quite help what they were looking for...

At 1000 yards with 2775 you are looking at about 9.2 mils under standard conditions, full value 10mph wind is about 2.3 mils and it is still going 1350fps at 1000 yards.

If that helps.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

If you are reloading;
Flatest shooting, 155 scenar or 155.5 berger

Best in the wind and still a repeater, JLK 180 LBT VLD the g1 bc is around .580 and you can push them at the same speed or nearly so as the 175's (I adv. 15 fps slower then 175's). The only draw back is you must order them and wait till they are made.

If shooting factory, hornady superformance 178 bthp looks real good...

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

 

[gbernardski]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Bob,
I know this thread is old, just found it by google. I liked what you've had to say and would like your opinion. I was wondering if you think the 155.5 would work in a 10 twist, 308 winchester, 22in barrel I'm building?
Thanks,
Glenn

 

[poke5353]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

I have been running 155gr smk 2156 out of my 1/10 22" Krieger barrel and they perform great

 

[XxMerlinxX]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Can't believe everyone got this wrong. Flattest shooting would be the 110gr Berger FB.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Everyone needs to keep in mind that "flattest shooting" or "less drift" aren't necessarily relevant if your barrel prefers a different bullet...

175 SMK's grouped so much tighter from my son's Savage .308, than the 168's you'd have thought the 168's were some cheap commercial load...

Heavy bullets and high BC are great if your barrel likes them- and if you can get the velocity to push them fast enough, no?

 

[Rick 324]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

I really would like to know who is actually getting 2775 fps out of the 178 BTHP (Not Superformance)... That is a hell of a velocity for a 178 in a .308. I love the 178 BTHP, 178 A-Max and the 175 SMK, but I can not get any of them close to 2700 in a 24" barrel!!! The best I have gotten consistently is around 2675 fps, and that was SMOKIN'!!! Whoever said they were getting 2800 fps out of a 26" barrel with a 178 is going to be changing their barrel really soon or the are full of crap!!!

The 178 BTHP has probly the best BC for the 175 range of affordable bullets (I love the JLK's but they are hard to get and expensive) and it has a good advantage over the 185++ in the velocity range... They are all accurate if you find the right load, but they will never be called Flat Trajectory Rounds...

Good Luck!!!

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Since I have not got into hand loading I am sure there are flatter out there. But I like Brian Litz's App. Bal. 175 OTM. I shoot out in western Okla. were the wind tends to be a bit high and I love the things. In high winds 15+ I am fairly consistent past 500 yards with them. With every other load in my bag, it is the best round for the conditions that I am dealing with. It is also one of the faster of the bunch at 2728 fps.

I was shooting in 100 - 105 degree temp when I got those speeds. The chronograph I was using was a Chrony. I did a 10 shot run trough it and the average I got was 2728.27. I to though it was a bit to fast for a .308. Anyway I took it for face value and plugged it into my software. The software I am using is from Brian Litz. The program spit out -3.0 elev and -1.9 for the 20 mph wind. I was hitting any were from 1" to 3" aprox. high at 500 yards. For the number of rounds that I shot and the number that hit the target, I averaged about 58%-65%.

Again, I thought the 2728 fps was fairly fast for a 308. I thought the Chrony was wrong, but apparently not. I am shooting a Surgeon Rifle with a 24" #10 M.T.U. Krieger. Believe me or not, I don't care. I was there.

 

[Quickoz]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

My average velocity for my 44gr Varget, 175gr SMK load in Lapua brass with CCI BR2 primer was 2737fps over ten shots. Temp was around 70 degrees F, 210ft AMSL, 30.47InHg.

My computed drop for a 400m target using both shooter and Exbal is 2.5Mil using this velocity but my drop is actually 2.3Mil at 400m. And using the trajectory validation in Exbal and MV tool in Shooter, the MV is more like 2820fps. Im unsure what the believe, Chrony or software.

I need to confirm my drop out to 800-1000m to comfirm but this is darn fast either way for a 175gr SMK from a 26" barrel isnt it?

 

[XTR]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Yes, that seems fast.

My Krieger 30" barrel launches the 175SMK at 2780 over 44.4 Varget, My 24" Rock Creek pushed the same load about 100 FPS slower (not near my office to go look it up)

I'd think you are getting something in the mid to low 2600s with SMKs over 44.0.

I do load WW brass, lapua is thicker so you have less capacity and will have a bit more pressure, you may be in the upper 2600s. I'd get some good DA numbers and come ups and then run the numbers in JBM and see what it looks like.

 

[Rob01]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

44grns of Varget in a Hornady case with the 178 BTHP gives me 2730fps out of my 24" 11 twist Bartlein barrel. when I got the brake put on and dropped it to 22" it's still at 2710fps.

 

[Rick 324]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

2700+ is definately fast for a 175-178 projectile and the point that I was trying to make is that pushing that heavy of a bullet in a .308 is definately going to shorten the life of your barrel. Pushing that bullet to 2800 fps is borderline suicide. The cartridge has its limits and no matter what velocity you shoot if you take the time to learn the round in your gun then you will not have to worry about the difference between 2.3 and 2.5 mills.

I have pushed my rifle over 2750 and I definately did not see an increase in accuracy. I did see that it is possible and I needed to back off to make sure that if I went to shoot at say a different altitude, I would not blow up my rifle trying for a few more fps.

There is an old saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should".

Find the sweet spot and run what you brung...

Good Luck Gents!!!

 

[freestylmx]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Have you ever heard of a properly built rifle from the factory ever blowing up from a round that was too hot? I never have. Ive always wondered if youre rifle exploding from a hot load is even possible then why are all military 5.56 loads loaded so hot and especially when fired in the middle east deserts with temps over 110. I think the whole "your rifle is going to explode if you load too hot but youll be ok if you back off a 0.2 grains" is pretty funny
If your rifle is on the verge of exploding but its all ok with only a few tenths of a grain less...there is something seriously wrong with the rifle

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Blown primers and hard extraction usually are enough to tell when it is time to back off a little.

OFG

 

[sawman556]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Dude all guns can KB if your pressures are too high. I've seen some fucked up shit happen on the firing line. If you don't think your AR can KB, send it to me and I'll give it a shot.

 

[CanSniper]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

0<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really would like to know who is actually getting 2775 fps out of the 178 BTHP (Not Superformance)... That is a hell of a velocity for a 178 in a .308. I love the 178 BTHP, 178 A-Max and the 175 SMK, but I can not get any of them close to 2700 in a 24" barrel!!! The best I have gotten consistently is around 2675 fps, and that was SMOKIN'!!! Whoever said they were getting 2800 fps out of a 26" barrel with a 178 is going to be changing their barrel really soon or the are full of crap!!!
O
The 178 BTHP has probly the best BC for the 175 range of affordable bullets (I love the JLK's but they are hard to get and expensive) and it has a good advantage over the 185++ in the velocity range... They are all accurate if you find the right load, but they will never be called Flat Trajectory Rounds...

Good Luck!!! </div></div>
Hornady has "magic dust" that they put in Superformance Ammo.
178s ran 2750 out of my 24" factory barrel.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

MontanaMarine has proven to be an expert and shooting the .308 at extremely long ranges. His magic recipe is using big, high BC bullets seated at maximum allowable length, and cases overflowing with lots of Reloader 17. Click on the link to read about his excellent work.

 

[Sharpsman]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

As for going KB....'youngsters' have to learn....THE HARD WAY!!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

I find 175gr SMK's extremely easy to make accurate at short range. At long range, it is a reasonable performer, but certainly not tops. I have found that the new Berger Hybrids offer a great combination of short range accuracy and long range ballistics. They are expensive, but I think it just might be the ultimate for matches where you need to shoot short, medium, and long.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

Yep- you have to consider the cost factor.
We're still relatively new to the long range thing- so we put the emphasis on rounds downrange, quantity over quality.

I'm talking SMK's, no slouch- compared to Bergers or custom order bullets. My sons and I each send 100 per trip...and I think that the extra $50 would be wasted at this point, as our shooting is not yet good enough to bear out the difference.

 

[Sharpsman]

Re: the Ultimate .308 long range bullet

There ARE NO MAGIC BULLETS! The one best suited for LR shooting is the one that shoots best in YOUR RIFLE; not necessarily one that shoots best for someone else! So get ready for some T&E on your part!!