Operation Bagration: Soviet Offensive of 1944
Geographically, it dwarfed the campaign for Normandy. In four weeks, it inflicted greater losses on the German army than the Wehrmacht had suffered in
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The war in Ukraine and Donbas
- Thread starter Darayavaus
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Maybe his hospital bed will accidentally fall out of the window before he dies of polonium poisoning
Keep in mind that Bagration was the end result of Kursk, Stalingrad and the results of the 1941 winter.
IIRC army group centre had less than 500 operational tanks at the start of Bagration.
So yeah you might need to spend a bit of time looking into the larger picture.
100% my MMA gym has a Dagistani teacher there, phenomenal wrestling coach, known him for several years now. Anyhow the guy is so low key I found out the hard way he was a boxing champion back in his college days as well. He just never boasts so I didn't know what I was getting into.... Not that I can't hold my own, but his culture does not feel pain i'm convinced!
They will be replaced with North African Muslims.
there were no muslims when the Bible was written. Mohammed came 500 years later.
Cyrus wasn’t born when a letter was written to him specifically to him as a king. Neither were any of us or the antichrist, but here we are.
That’s the point you are missing. Prophecy doesn’t always call out individuals or people groups by name. There is quite a bit of debate even today about who Gog and Magog are, but they are there too.
I know very well who is mentioned, who is alluded to, and who is not. One of my areas of study was ancient people groups, both historic and prehistoric, and their languages.
Arabs are mentioned, as well as the firm statement all the way back in Genesis that God's covenant will not go through them (which takes the air out of Islam's claim to the God of the Bible as being their God). But "Muslims" are not.
If you think I'm missing the term "Muslim" or "Islam" show me chapter and verse.
I said that Islam and Muslims are not mentioned in the Bible. you are disputing that with me. I asked you to show me where they are mentioned.
See now, you are not reading what I wrote. Go back and read it again. I didn’t say they were mentioned. I said Cyrus and the Antichrist were mentioned. All humans are included in the NT and OT. OT because they either looked forward to Christ or worshipped idols. In the NT everyone is included after the Christ on the cross as either accepting him or denying him. This includes Muslims. The start date of Islam has little to do with that from a Christian perspective. People groups by and large are only broken out into Jews and Gentiles. Example: today we are in what is called the Age of the Gentiles, this will sunset soon enough and the veil will be lifted off of the eyes of the Jews and they will come to Christ.
Whether or not Muslims are mentioned specifically is about as relevant as whether or not Indians are mentioned. Gentiles be Gentiles.
Whether or not Muslims are mentioned specifically is about as relevant as whether or not Indians are mentioned. Gentiles be Gentiles.
here is the conversation:
Since you replied directly to my post, I would assume that your response had something to do with the conversation.
My point is that there is no mention in Biblical prophecy of Islam or Muslims, although there are many apocryphal claims to the contrary. I even heard one about Obama.
ok, we're really getting off on a tangent now, so this is the last I'll say on it.
Just as you referred to Gog and Magog earlier, there is mention of many people groups in the Bible beyond just "Jew and Gentile" and these Biblical prophecies are totally relevant, or else they would not be discussed. In the beginning, immediately after the Flood, there is the Table of Nations in Genesis 10; many of these are mentioned again in the Bible, all the way to Revelation.
Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites, and the Rodanites. From these, the maritime peoples separated into their territories, according to their languages, by clans within their nations. Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. Seba, Havilah, Sabtah,b Raamah, and Sabteca. Sheba and Dedan. (Nimrod) Babylon, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Assyria, Nineveh, Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, 12and Resen, Mizraim was the father of the Ludites, the Anamites, the Lehabites, the Naphtuhites, 14the Pathrusites, the Casluhites (from whom the Philistines came), and the Caphtorites. Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn,g and of the Hittites, 16the Jebusites, the Amorites, the Girgashites, 17the Hivites, the Arkites, the Sinites, 18the Arvadites, the Zemarites, and the Hamathites. Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash. Eber. And Joktan was the father of Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan. 30Their territory extended from Mesha to Sephar, in the eastern hill country.
All of the "major" tribes which later spread across the face of the world are named. Obviously, these are entirely what would later be termed "Gentile" tribes. Abram himself came from Sumer. The father of the Jews came from Ur of the Chaldees (the same ethnic stock that Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians claimed).
Throughout the Bible, there is detailed information and prophecies about nations and ethnicities; Prophecies in Daniel talk specifically about the Achaemenid Persian Kings, Alexander and the wars of the Diadochi. Those are some of the most detailed verses of Prophecy in the OT.
The Letters to the Churches in the NT are a list of groups of Gentile believers. Greek Corinthians, Celtic Galatians, Latin Romans. The Hebrews themselves are the ones who fell away. But before that, Pentecost in Acts itself describes the nearby Gentile nations in detail: Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs.
So there are many places where the Bible goes into detail, far beyond Jew and Gentile. And again, in keeping with the discussion about Biblical prophecy, if you are trying to figure out who is being referred to, you take a look at the list of names and do some matching with archaeology and history.
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We both could probably agree on that.
@Darayavaus, you want to continue this drop a PM before we screw up this thread with any more walls of copy-paste.
lol, no I'm good. today is going to be busy so I can't get into any deep conversations.
Yes it looks like the Ru had been advancing for a while, over a year. Not to mention D-day, the Naval warfare in the Med and Atlantic, Allied air raids, Africa being stamped out. ETC.
I think a notable big difference seen here is Axis powers were basically isolated and blocked by the western advance, resources supply lines and manufacturing hit hard. Which put a massive damper on their ability to supply the Eastern Front. No doubt the fight in the east was multiple times more involved and bloody, but logistics wins. And in WW2 the US was suppling russia with fuel, Trucks, aircraft, rail and materials.
Fast foward to today and I personally don't see the parallels to Bagration to what we see going on here. The line has been relitivley static for nearly a year. West, regardless of my personal desire to find an end to this conflict and recognition of the dumb fucks who started it by couping Kiev and putting an excessive of political pressure in the country, is continuing to supply Ukraine and has multiple times the treasure, tech and equipment to do it. And Russia is not getting that support else where they were during WW2.
Again I don't see Parallels to Bagration for the facts above.
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Bagration was a success because almost all German units became embrittled after years of constant fighting. They were running out of good soldiers in early 1943.
They also had generally limited manoeuvrability and Hitler liked the fortified town doctrine which wasn’t the best defence to contain a Soviet breakthrough.
The Germans also majorly fucked up when it came to intelligence and the soviets played them throughly.
So while I personally wouldn’t draw a parallel with current events, we really don’t know how much pressure the Ukrainians are under and how they would respond to a Russian offensive.
Here is another WW2 era trope we can reuse. The ukroNazis are fighting 'for the culture of the West'.
Are there even 50,000 Ukraine foreign volunteer soldiers left at this point? Or are they saying that a majority of the remaining Ukraine merc army is gay? The propaganda is ridiculous at this point.
50k LGBT service members seem off the charts, particularly for any East European country. Ukrainians trying hard to pop up on Gaydar
* at the same time AFU troops are looking at each other trying to figure out who these gays and transes are to snuff them out at their earliest chance
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Mercs? I feel there is a language barrier somewhere.
Nothing in the article said anything about mercs.
the article says that "LGBT Military, an Instagram account that posts photos of gays and lesbians puts the figure at around 50,000."
so apparently they have 50,000 pics of AFU dudes fucking other dudes. Or 25,000 fucking the other 25,000. IDK. you choose. Either way, it's a lot of pics that I don't want to see. I'm farming the articles, not writing them.
50k LGBT service members seem off the charts, particularly for any East European country. Ukrainians trying hard to pop up on Gaydar
that's why all the Russian drones and missiles get through. the AFU is so gay they can't shoot straight.
Presactly. Am I to believe that Ukraine is conscripting ages between 16 and 64 and somehow they managed to scoop up 50k gay citizens? OR that there is a whole fully trained gay army ready to defend Ukraine against the straight soldiers of Russia? Its all BS.
Well, on the other hand, maybe Russia’s EW is actually a finely tuned gaydar.
This was a very important element of the operation "Bagration", which may repeat itself again:
Historical Perspective : Deception
@Darayavaus, I’m not busting your balls here, just making an observation on how stupid the propaganda has gotten. If something like this can be put out it means that they don’t care how fictional or ridiculous the article is as long as it corroborates the narrative. It also means they don’t think those reading this drivel are intelligent at all, or they don’t care if we know they are lying because they know SOME few will buy it, and that’s good enough.
Critical thought appears to be on its deathbed.
it seems high. If they were ancient Greeks, I'd say the number is too low. But 50k/ or 10% of the total being fags in the AFU seems hard to believe. Maybe it's just wishful thinking by the gay group coming up with the numbers.
Edit: here is the article in the British paper. so as to your insistence about it being propaganda, whose propaganda is it? the first source was Russian, the second British.
Gay Ukrainian soldiers believe war with Russia is changing attitudes at home
As Estonia becomes the first former part of the Soviet Union to legalise same-sex marriage there are hopes Ukraine could be next
www.telegraph.co.uk
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All of this. Soviet intelligence thoroughly fooled the Germans and iirc they had one panzer div as the reserve for the whole army group.
It is one of those instances though that make me scoff at the revisionists who act like we contributed nothing and the Russians did it all. Park Panzer Group West behind army group center and run Bagration and the Russians likely get their shit pushed in like they usually did when facing the Germans with anything like equal forces.
Ukraine has tried to pretend it’s pro lgbt in the past, much like they pretend there is no corruption, a magical transformation.
Media has to go along with it because Ukraine are the good guys and so infallible and the stupidity of the masses only gets deeper the longer you look.
Makes senses for a country that’s scraping up bodies for a war to overlook something that would get one beaten in the streets, but being used for cannon fodder is hardly an improvement.
With history being viewed through the lens of the present I’m sure we can look forward to new revisions about how the soviets really contributed little.
George Orwell was certainly onto something though, we rewrite history to suits our current needs and with the centralisation and control of information on the internet, we have a taste of the authentic 1984 experience.
With WW2 though, the moral of that story is probably don’t try and fight the rest of the industrialised world all at once.
Is the suggestion/ similarity to Bagration, the movement of Wagner into Belarus, using the "coup attempt" as Maskirovka to mask the movement of troops and launch an attack from the north, while signaling weakness and a division, post coup? While the Ru troops in the South use a defensive posture to bait the attacking Ukrainians into focusing on the offensive in the south east?This was a very important element of the operation "Bagration", which may repeat itself again:
Historical Perspective : Deception
www.globalsecurity.org
In the USA, Russia effort in WW2 was fairly ignored in public schools I attended. It wasn't till later on and through my own study that I became to grasp just how big of a part of WW2 they were.
For instance, everyone credits the Nukes for ending the Pacific war against Japan. And yes they were a big part of it. But it is not taught that the US and Russia made a deal and the moring the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima 1,000,000 Russian troops moved on Manchuria. Which too was part of what pushed the Japs to surrender to the US. There are some who would argue had Russia not pushed, Japan would have kept fighting.
Also, the Soviets got to Berlin first.
Would not surprise me if more anti Ru hate lead to more revisionist types unfavoablely teaching history. To sell their agenda.
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I'm not any kind of military expert, of course, but I do have a gut feeling it may be a sort of a "plan", or, at least, something that Russians may want to use in the next couple of weeks to surprise "the west" and kick butt. In any case using maskirovka (deception) was always some of the favorite methods of doing all kinds of stuff by the Russians. I've mentioned "Bagration" because it has been an example of how they managed to completely confuse the Germans (who certainly were not stupid) to win a strategic battle. If I'm correct, something may happen in the middle of July.
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here it is. another big reason why they want to see Russia destroyed:
Funny all those are kind of banned or in the process of them being cancelled. Monuments included -> i guess some are trying hard to force history in oblivion. But i’m guessing “south” might rise up again -godwilling.
Nothing special, but it looks like a lot of confusion is being generated for and by everybody involved in this conflict. Personally, I do not think that the presence of Wagner fighters in Belarus is some kind of VS (Very Special) event. Russians have a lot of troops there anyway to look dangerous to ukes.
Russia claims Ukraine disconnected main power line to Zaporizhzhia plant
Ukraine cut off 750 kilovolt power line to nuclear plant early Tuesday, says official - Anadolu Ajansı
www.aa.com.tr
Were all the steps at the start a direct challenge to Biden?
Well XI is cheating, he literally has a trip danger pointer.
Whats your Job?
I walk in front of the leader and make sure he doesn't make an ass of himself by falling over.
Yeah I seen the concern that guy had for that little step, also the speed which they descended wasn’t exactly spritely.
Still I’m not even American and wouldn’t mind watching Biden taking that challenge unassisted, we could make bets on how far he’d get.
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