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The Whitworth
- Thread starter Veer_G
- Start date
Dixie (Pedersoli?) makes a superlative Whitworth replica. I want one very much.... But have not yet bitten the bullet, so to speak.
These were (and are) amazing rifles. The Confederates made great use of them, despite it costing them a stupid amount of money per rifle.
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick was probably the victim of a Whitworth. The highest ranking officer killed in battle in the Civil War. I think at Antietam or Spotsylvania. He was trying to rally his troops along the line and his troops, who were enduring very accurate fire from Confederate sharpshooters were cowered behind a wall. Sedgewich sat on his horse and chided his troops "Men dodging this way from single bullets? Why are you dodging like this? They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...." It has never been confirmed whether he finished the sentence or not. Some say that he was shot mid-sentence. Others say he had no sooner finished speaking than he was shot off his horse. Either way....
He fell dead from a shot just under his left eye, almost certainly from a Whitworth. Range to the Confederate lines was about 1000 yards. That made the shot somewhat lucky, as I think the basket for a Whitworth at 1000 was probably about 12 inches (I think I recall that, properly fed and in proper hands, it is a 1 - 1.5 MOA rifle). So while it took a very skilled marksman to put the round into that circle, the shooter got a bit lucky with a head shot delivered just below the eye!
I'd have to look in Pegler (he covers the Whitworth very well in his book From Out of Nowhere) but I think that Whitworth wanted to control the production of ammunition. So he did not supply molds, only bullets made his way and sold at rather high prices. Along the 'Gilette' lines of business of give them the razor and sell them the blades. Though I don't think he gave anything away. This is from memory, though, and it's been a while since I read Pegler's fantastic treatise. One of the best books on military sniping, ever. If you hang out in the Vintage Section, you should own a copy!
I think a Whitworth could hold its own against a lot of modern rifles, at least out to 1000.
Cheers,
Sirhr
These were (and are) amazing rifles. The Confederates made great use of them, despite it costing them a stupid amount of money per rifle.
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick was probably the victim of a Whitworth. The highest ranking officer killed in battle in the Civil War. I think at Antietam or Spotsylvania. He was trying to rally his troops along the line and his troops, who were enduring very accurate fire from Confederate sharpshooters were cowered behind a wall. Sedgewich sat on his horse and chided his troops "Men dodging this way from single bullets? Why are you dodging like this? They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...." It has never been confirmed whether he finished the sentence or not. Some say that he was shot mid-sentence. Others say he had no sooner finished speaking than he was shot off his horse. Either way....
He fell dead from a shot just under his left eye, almost certainly from a Whitworth. Range to the Confederate lines was about 1000 yards. That made the shot somewhat lucky, as I think the basket for a Whitworth at 1000 was probably about 12 inches (I think I recall that, properly fed and in proper hands, it is a 1 - 1.5 MOA rifle). So while it took a very skilled marksman to put the round into that circle, the shooter got a bit lucky with a head shot delivered just below the eye!
I'd have to look in Pegler (he covers the Whitworth very well in his book From Out of Nowhere) but I think that Whitworth wanted to control the production of ammunition. So he did not supply molds, only bullets made his way and sold at rather high prices. Along the 'Gilette' lines of business of give them the razor and sell them the blades. Though I don't think he gave anything away. This is from memory, though, and it's been a while since I read Pegler's fantastic treatise. One of the best books on military sniping, ever. If you hang out in the Vintage Section, you should own a copy!
I think a Whitworth could hold its own against a lot of modern rifles, at least out to 1000.
Cheers,
Sirhr
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http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=17279
^^^ For those who can't resist the temptation... Once my Mk13 is done, this might be on my Christmas list.
Cheers,
Sirhr
^^^ For those who can't resist the temptation... Once my Mk13 is done, this might be on my Christmas list.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Veer_G,
Thanks for posting this. We've all heard of the Whitworth. But, like many, I didn't know much of any details about it. Other than it was a highly prized rifle to get ahold of in the Civil War. I knew the rifling was different, but I never knew it was full hexagonal. Unfortunately, it preceding my areas of interest, I never bothered to research it. This is now worth researching.
Thanks for posting this. We've all heard of the Whitworth. But, like many, I didn't know much of any details about it. Other than it was a highly prized rifle to get ahold of in the Civil War. I knew the rifling was different, but I never knew it was full hexagonal. Unfortunately, it preceding my areas of interest, I never bothered to research it. This is now worth researching.
Jack Hinson got around the proprietary bullets. His rifle survives today, a kind of "one off" American octagonal rifled barrel. Amazing what hatred and a little cash can motivate a man to do.
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That's an amazing story. I wonder why nobody has thought to make a movie out of it yet?
[video=youtube_share;as-XgVN-q8g]https://youtu.be/as-XgVN-q8g[/video]
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Maybe, with the PC culture of today. Lots of stuff romantisizing the Civil War. I hear guy's say they're ready for the next one all the time. I think what most lack is the mental exercise of killing their next door neighbor because of hunger. War is ugly. War against yourself, so much worse.
My hunt lease is in that area of Ft. Donaldson. I drive right past the cannons to hit our access road. Lots of ravines, draws, etc. I have never hunted the river (Don't have access) but I have seen the terrain and it's no shit. The whole area is littered with caves, bluffs, gorges, etc. My buddy and I were going to try to find the cave he used but we've not found any specific location(s). I wonder if the locals kept it a secret intentionally?
Still amazed at what a machinist and a marksmen could do 200 years ago. We have come a long way but how much progress have we really made?
My hunt lease is in that area of Ft. Donaldson. I drive right past the cannons to hit our access road. Lots of ravines, draws, etc. I have never hunted the river (Don't have access) but I have seen the terrain and it's no shit. The whole area is littered with caves, bluffs, gorges, etc. My buddy and I were going to try to find the cave he used but we've not found any specific location(s). I wonder if the locals kept it a secret intentionally?
Still amazed at what a machinist and a marksmen could do 200 years ago. We have come a long way but how much progress have we really made?
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I've heard a lot of the same kind of talk too. One needs to look at the Middle-East, the Balkans, parts of Columbia, that all got wracked by civil war. Nobody wins that mess. It's best to head off those intentions right now.
The interesting thing is, I wonder how much it would take to build a rifle like that today?
About $4k.... For a custom longrifle.
http://www.blackhartlongarms.com/
Ed has built several rifles for me. He could replicate the Hinson rifle without difficultty. As could a number of other builders.
But this hand-crafting takes time... and time costs. Given what goes into his rifles, I am surprised he does them for so little.
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. Seems to me that Hinson could be a great TV drama.... along the lines of Justified. Couple of Bluecoats a week.... Ironic ending where he disappears.... Would make a great movie if Hollywood weren't full of turd-stabbers who get all angst-ridden over a flag on the roof of a Dodge Charger....
I just ordered a copy of One Man War, a biography of Hinson. Looking forward to it.
Never heard of him until this morning. It's going to be a great read, methinks!
Thanks for the reference... this is a great thread!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Never heard of him until this morning. It's going to be a great read, methinks!
Thanks for the reference... this is a great thread!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Looks like a good read. I found the introduction and prologue on line, and apparently an e-book version is on Amazon, if you don't mind slipping a penny in Bezos' pocket.
That is an awesome post, VEER! The quality of the rifle is quite amazing. The cost was incredible too, but the toll it took more than made up for it's cost.
While stuck in OKC for class I visited the 45 Division (Thunderbird) museum. They have the only Whitworth that has been authenticated to have been in combat. There is another rifle in Richmond,VA and Nashville, TN.
If you are ever in OK check the museum out. Lots of weapons and ephemera, spent a lot of time going got one of those, two of those and how can I fit that BAR in my pocket
Plus a whole section dedicated to Willy and Joe (Bill Maudlin), I could have spent an hour just reading all of them. The "Thunderbirds" covered some of the same territory my father did in Sicily and Italy except my father's unit had North Africa first.
If you are ever in OK check the museum out. Lots of weapons and ephemera, spent a lot of time going got one of those, two of those and how can I fit that BAR in my pocket
Plus a whole section dedicated to Willy and Joe (Bill Maudlin), I could have spent an hour just reading all of them. The "Thunderbirds" covered some of the same territory my father did in Sicily and Italy except my father's unit had North Africa first.Attachments
Finished the Hinson Book. Really excellent. Interesting contrast between this author and the book I read just before that, American Ulysses, about Grant. Grant's biographer was clearly a Northern Man. Hinson's biographer had very strong Southern sympathies and some very interesting takes on life in antebellum KY and TN and the war-years. You could see in his language and his tone that there was more than a little love for the Southern cause. Well, UNC and UKY will probably do that to you.... as will a Marine Corps career all the way back to Korea.
Very, very good book and well worth reading. Superb research and for nothing more than a great example of a fantastic archivist... One Man War is a totally great read!
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. Cool pictures from the Thunderbird Museum. Never heard of that! But very cool rifle pix!
Very, very good book and well worth reading. Superb research and for nothing more than a great example of a fantastic archivist... One Man War is a totally great read!
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. Cool pictures from the Thunderbird Museum. Never heard of that! But very cool rifle pix!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gg8MAE&usg=AFQjCNEe3MyBH-Rdx_TazaqK6GerzGdfuQ
I hadn't heard about it either. Had a car rented for the weekend and was looking for something to kill an afternoon. I wish they had opened earlier, now I've got to buy another rifle. Was browsing a gun shop another member suggested and found a bayonet, scabbard and frog for a Swedish 94/14 carbine at a good price. Should have grabbed the one I saw for 400 about 10 years ago.
I hadn't heard about it either. Had a car rented for the weekend and was looking for something to kill an afternoon. I wish they had opened earlier, now I've got to buy another rifle. Was browsing a gun shop another member suggested and found a bayonet, scabbard and frog for a Swedish 94/14 carbine at a good price. Should have grabbed the one I saw for 400 about 10 years ago.
Just learned this weekend these guys trained at Fort Devens, Massachusetts.
I always associated them with the west.
I guess if you are headed to Europe though, Devens is as good a place as any for field training before shipping out.
Id love to hit the old base with a metal detector but there is so much UXO out there its expressly forbidden.
I would like to know the barrel twist and the bullet shape/weight of the bullet for Hinson's rifle.
The speaker on the Whitworth is not entirely accurate re: patches on uniform. I've only found evidence of patches in the Army of Northern Virginia. Second, patches were worn by the sharpshooters who served primarily as skirmishers, not as snipers as the Whitworth sharpshooters were. BTW, sniping was coined in 1773 and became popularized during the Boer War.
First scoped rifle made in America was during the American Revolution. Its owner was an officer so it is very unlikely it was ever used in combat. Additionally, since he didn't know about cheek weld, he'd get a blackened eye from using it. The maker then fitted the gun with a spring(s) loaded recoil pad. First known use of a rifle in combat was during the Indian Mutiny (India, not here in 'murica).
The Whitworth in Richmond is in the collection of the Virginia Historical Society. The one in Tennessee has some post war modifications and is in the Tennessee State Museum. The other Whitworth is in OKC and is in the collection of the 45th Infantry Division Museum, the Thunderbirds. That was carried by Charles Ingram and its scope is a replacement. For reasons unknown, the tang is also a replacement. That museum is well worth the visit; especially if you want to learn about military firearms used in America. The last famous piece they have is a small cannon captured from Mosby.
The speaker on the Whitworth is not entirely accurate re: patches on uniform. I've only found evidence of patches in the Army of Northern Virginia. Second, patches were worn by the sharpshooters who served primarily as skirmishers, not as snipers as the Whitworth sharpshooters were. BTW, sniping was coined in 1773 and became popularized during the Boer War.
First scoped rifle made in America was during the American Revolution. Its owner was an officer so it is very unlikely it was ever used in combat. Additionally, since he didn't know about cheek weld, he'd get a blackened eye from using it. The maker then fitted the gun with a spring(s) loaded recoil pad. First known use of a rifle in combat was during the Indian Mutiny (India, not here in 'murica).
The Whitworth in Richmond is in the collection of the Virginia Historical Society. The one in Tennessee has some post war modifications and is in the Tennessee State Museum. The other Whitworth is in OKC and is in the collection of the 45th Infantry Division Museum, the Thunderbirds. That was carried by Charles Ingram and its scope is a replacement. For reasons unknown, the tang is also a replacement. That museum is well worth the visit; especially if you want to learn about military firearms used in America. The last famous piece they have is a small cannon captured from Mosby.
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Are you telling us that rifles weren't used clear up until 1857? Please explain the Indian Mutiny where the first rifle was used?
I am unsure where you get the impression that I said rifles weren't used until 1857. There's no shortage of accounts or documentation to show rifles were issued and used in both Europe and the Colonies prior to 1775.
If you're talking about scoped rifles, the first incident I know of where one was used was by Horatio Ross during the Indian Mutiny. The American Civil War was the first war though that saw scoped equipped rifles being used by both sides. Mind you, they weren't nitrogen sealed and were susceptible to fogging (as at Lee's Landing).
If you're talking about scoped rifles, the first incident I know of where one was used was by Horatio Ross during the Indian Mutiny. The American Civil War was the first war though that saw scoped equipped rifles being used by both sides. Mind you, they weren't nitrogen sealed and were susceptible to fogging (as at Lee's Landing).
BTW, there were a couple of hits on Union soldiers on Morris Island. It's likely by the Whitworth sharpshooters who fired from Fort Sumter. The distance is at least 1,300 yards. Since there's no intervening land mass from which those soldiers were struck, clearly they were fired from Sumter.
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I heard about Da Vinci as well as Frederic der Grosse both allegedly using scoped rifles, but I don't know which codex Da Vinci wrote about it in (if he did at all) and I haven't seen a transcript of Frederic der Grosse's diary that purportedly records it in. Even if I were to see the codex, I need to someone who is familiar with older Italian (and doesn't mind reading it backwards with a mirror since da Vinci wrote backwards). Ditto with German (or French since Frederick preferred French over German). Eigthteen Century language is different from modern tongue.
For example, I read a transcription of a jager officer who described the American riflemen of the Revolution. It was translated as, "they can easily bring a folded bayonet off their leg." It took years to figure out what he meant and I finally got hold of the involved pages of the transcript which was, not surprisingly, in older German. Sent it to a German in Heidelberg and he couldn't make heads or tails of it. Then I sent it to a German in Canada who reads 18th Century stuff and he retranslated it as, "a bayonet charge brings them to their feet," meaning our riflemen skedaddled when charged with a bayonet. The original translator was probably not familiar with military tactics so he mistranslated it.
I did see the published diary of an American who had the scope mounted on a rifle in Boston though.
For example, I read a transcription of a jager officer who described the American riflemen of the Revolution. It was translated as, "they can easily bring a folded bayonet off their leg." It took years to figure out what he meant and I finally got hold of the involved pages of the transcript which was, not surprisingly, in older German. Sent it to a German in Heidelberg and he couldn't make heads or tails of it. Then I sent it to a German in Canada who reads 18th Century stuff and he retranslated it as, "a bayonet charge brings them to their feet," meaning our riflemen skedaddled when charged with a bayonet. The original translator was probably not familiar with military tactics so he mistranslated it.
I did see the published diary of an American who had the scope mounted on a rifle in Boston though.
Suffice it to say Da Vinci (his name literally translates Leonardo from Vinci {a city I. Italy}) did it and was verified to have done it. The reason his idea was carried on through the ages (barely) was that his patron at the time, as most were, big fans of war. His accomplishments didn't go unnoticed during that siege.
I'd love to see documentation on it. Please share it if you have it.
I know da Vinci's patron was Lorenzo de Medici. I wonder if Medici means something like medicine. Medicina is Italian for medicine.
I know da Vinci's patron was Lorenzo de Medici. I wonder if Medici means something like medicine. Medicina is Italian for medicine.
Can't tell about Medici and DaVinci... but if you visit the NRA Museum, you will see an L.C. Cummins scope (Montpelier, Vermont) in their case with my name on it... as the donor. One of the earliest scopemakers. Rarer than rocking horse turds. I came across one a few years ago and sent it to Doug and Jim at the museum... because they needed it.
Cummins old shop is still extant on State Street. Now it's a coffee shop inhabited by lumbersexuals and rump rangers. Cummins is probably turning over in his grave. Albiet with great precision.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Cummins old shop is still extant on State Street. Now it's a coffee shop inhabited by lumbersexuals and rump rangers. Cummins is probably turning over in his grave. Albiet with great precision.
Cheers,
Sirhr
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/davinci.html
A good read, if a little over-exuberant juvenile in it's approach.
Thanks. I wish the author cited primary sources. I recall reading one sniping book where the author identified a previously unidentifed British officer. The author would not respond to inquiries regarding how he ascertained the identity of the British officer.
The 'ol "not divulging my sources" trick.
As much as something like it is probably true, I don't think he single-handedly held the towers for an extended period of time. However, one or two successful shots definitely made those attacking think about dying not being a random thing.
It did happen. But, how successful it actually was, was buried mostly in history. And, when it was dug up, the propensity to embellish what really happened was boundless. So, I'll just say it existed and we know it was used.
Also, he had quite the list of war loving patrons that included the Borgia's and Machiavelli.
I did find it on page 40 of Roberts & Sassers Crosshairs on the Kill Zone, but I don't know their source. I'll have to write them. Thanks.
SrhrMechanic - those are neat cachets.
SrhrMechanic - those are neat cachets.
