Night Vision Thermal Guidance (Mono + Dedicated? Clip-on?) Bering & AGM

[awpk03s]

In research mode here in search of some guidance on thermals.

My intended uses:

• Deer hunting. Tracking and recovering bow kills and scanning fields on way in and out of the tree.
• Coyote hunting. I have never night hunted coyotes before but I would like to occasionally do so.
• Backyard night pests/predators.

My weapons:

• Depending on setup, I don’t know which rifle I would establish yet. Options include AR10/AR15 and bolt guns. .223/300BLK/6mm/6.5mm/308/350 Legend/450 Bushmaster. ALL hunting done suppressed.
• Scopes have varying objectives of 44mm, 50mm, 56mm.
• If I used a dedicated scope as opposed to a clip on, then let’s say it’s going on an AR15 in 300BLK suppressed or an AR15 in 350 Legend suppressed.

My range/PID requirements:

• On living creatures I need to be able to ID the difference between raccoons/rabbits, coyotes (or dog), and deer. Pasture livestock and such doesn’t apply for me.
• Line of sight will max out at 200-300 yards, and most all shooting solutions will be 150 yards or closer. Probably 100 yards and closer.

My prior thermal experience:

• Leupold LTO Tracker HD thermal monocular. 320x240, 25 Hz. Used for recovering deer and it was great for that, but would like something better, and also explore weapon mounted capabilities. I used for tracking on 1.7x magnification almost all the time.

My Budget:

• Combined maybe MAX ~$3,600, prefer sub $3k all in.

My conundrum:

• Monocular + Dedicated Scope? I could get some monocular that’s at least better than the Leupold, and probably one of the dedicated scopes on this list…?
• Clip on as a do-all? Or get a Hogster or Rattler clip on as a do-all.
• The monocular or clip on when carried deer hunting has to be compact enough to carry in a Hill People Gear chest harness kit bag.

My target products:

• Bering Prodigy series monoculars
• Bering Hogster R25/35
• Bering Hogster Stimulus
• Bering Hogster Clip On
• AGM Rattler TC35-384 Clip On
• AGM Rattler TS25/35-384
• AGM Taipan monocular, various models.

Is a clip-on a compromise, and will mounting from rifle to rifle be a big PITA, does it require firing shots to set up each time? I’m a little turned off by the added cost of QD mounts for various objective diameters of a clip on?

For a clip on with an eyepiece, I believe I read the Hogster is 3x (not sure about Rattler) for example, will that inhibit my use for scanning and tracking?

Can a clip on be mounted on a rail in front of the scope? Does this present POI issues?

Can a clip on be used with a red dot or magnified red dot? I’m guessing that’s not a good solution?

There are a lot of other features and specs I’ve seen on these units that I don’t know enough about to form an opinion on importance… battery style, camera/video/WiFi, etc.

For what I’ve described, I would really appreciate any product recommendations or suggestions to help me zero in a solution. I’m not a military operator and don’t pretend to be one online, I’ll never take long range night/thermal shots on anything, never be a big time night hunter. Just want to track wounded or dead deer, occasionally night hunt coyotes, and occasionally whack raccoons and rabbits in my back yard.

 

[7mmSTW]

I've been playing with the Accufire Incendis. It seems to do a good job as a stand alone, clip on, and dedicated optic and is in your budget. Might be worth a look

 

[YotaEer]

I like my AGM rattler and taipan. Both 25-384 models. If you find them on sale, you could get both all in for less than $4k.

I also thought about doing the clip on route but the thermal monocular is wildly useful for both day and night hunting. I carry it everywhere on my bino pack in a separate pouch. You will want one.

My rattler is currently on a 16” 6.5G AR but I’ve had issues with animals hanging up at over 200 yards, where the Grendel starts to drop like a rock. Likely going to put the rattler on a cheap tikka bolt gun in either 22-250, 204 ruger, or 6.5 CM with 95gr v max as I reload for that already.

 

[RKM556]

Have you considered the new Iray Rico Micro 640? Could cover a lot of bases for you in one optic. Seems that you aren't afraid of chinesium (don't worry, me either) and Iray has 5 year warranty.

EDIT: Disregard, I can't read and missed your budget part. Good luck!!

 

[gr8fuldoug]

I reached out to my Burris tech guy and he said:

"Tough one Doug, there’s a lot going on here, but I’ll try to hit it point-by-point and summarize at the end:



Is a clip-on a compromise, and will mounting from rifle to rifle be a big PITA, does it require firing shots to set up each time? I’m a little turned off by the added cost of QD mounts for various objective diameters of a clip on? A clip-on trades features for versatility. Yes, you’ll likely need to re-zero if you change rifles, but if dismounting/remounting to the same rifle, you shouldn’t have noticeable deviation. A Clip-on with a Rail-mount option avoids the cost of multiple mounts, but necessitates that all your rifles have extended top rails.

For a clip on with an eyepiece, I believe I read the Hogster is 3x (not sure about Rattler) for example, will that inhibit my use for scanning and tracking? Depends on whether the eyepiece is removable as to how it will affect one’s use. The eyepiece typically improves a clip-on’s use as a handheld device, and would be removed before mounting to a firearm, as it would be assumed that the optic behind it is magnified already.

Can a clip on be mounted on a rail in front of the scope? Does this present POI issues? Yes-model dependent, and no, not if installed properly to a sufficiently rigid rail.

Can a clip on be used with a red dot or magnified red dot? I’m guessing that’s not a good solution? Yes! The Burris BTC’s work exceptionally well in front of the RT-3 compact prism sight or a LPVO such as the RT-6. Works okay in front of a red dot, but the small FOV does make the eye work a bit harder- don’t recommend adding a separate magnifier for fear of stacking tolerances in terms of optical distortion and mechanical repeatability

There are a lot of other features and specs I’ve seen on these units that I don’t know enough about to form an opinion on importance… battery style, camera/video/WiFi, etc. WIFi/Streaming/recording is not necessary for use, good for sharing with friends/family if that’s your thing. Battery choice is mostly about your own power management strategy and preferences- some prefer internal rechargeable, others prefer to have a never-ending supply of off-the-shelf batteries at the ready. Either way, you’ve got to manage your power drain, and that’s likely going to require external battery packs or swappable batteries at some point.

For what I’ve described, I would really appreciate any product recommendations or suggestions to help me zero in a solution. I’m not a military operator and don’t pretend to be one online, I’ll never take long range night/thermal shots on anything, never be a big time night hunter. Just want to track wounded or dead deer, occasionally night hunt coyotes, and occasionally whack raccoons and rabbits in my back yard. Based on these sentiments, and the above-mentioned requirements, a Burris BTC Clip-on unit will tick all of the boxes and not leave you wanting. Target ID ability is going to come with experience, and can be improved by springing for additional resolution- 640x sensors are pretty squarely out of the budget unless you’re willing to accept a dedicated handheld-only unit. I’d say that the BTC at $3k before accessories offers quite a bit, especially since your handheld usage seems limited to tracking- the resolution and refresh rate is far beyond what your LTO was and it’s certainly compact enough for your HPG rig. The additional $600 left in your budget leaves room for 3 mounts, but if you’re willing to stick to the AR15s, I’d say the Rail mount and a compact prism or LPVO should get the job done for you.
__________
If it makes any difference, we’ve got 4 AR15’s chambered in 6 ARC for our thermal demos. Two with BTS’s, and two with BTC’s. The BTC units have rail-mounted USB battery packs ($50-150) and we’ll either record the image through a mDVR (~$200) or some kind of Film-through-scope system (Phoneskope, Tactacam, etc). One is mounted in front of an RT-3 compact prism sight, which is awesome because no extended top rail is necessary- both optics fit on the upper receiver; the other is mounted to the objective of a LPVO (RT-6) which allows for demonstrating the ideal magnification range for use behind a thermal device (2-4x is ideal)"

I hope this helps.

 

[EchoFiveIndia]

Unfortunately @RKM556 is 100% correct, the RH25 Micro Rico 640 is almost the perfect solution for you but it’s twice your budget.

I had a Hogster C and really enjoyed it. I did not like using the eyepiece because of the magnification so I would just leave the clip on lens installed and use it as a handheld scanner that way. It was weird but functional, definitely not the best solution but it worked-ish.

 

[kirsch]

As a product tester for Night Goggles, I have tested all the Bering line up and lots of other brands as well. This type of topic is better covered on a phone call. I will send you a PM with my contact information if you are interested. I am also an avid coyote hunter shooting over 300 coyotes last winter and well over 200 already this winter.

 

[TheHorta]

Pixels on Target Voodoo-S is what you seek.

Stop being poor and go sell some blood. #Chickenshit.

 

[WhereNow&How]

0 Negatiff (Reptilian) blood brings the premium price.

Sell enough of that and maybe buy 2 Voodoo S's.

 

[Conqueror]

What I've learned about clip-on thermals is that there is no free lunch.

A just-okay regular thermal starts around $3k for weapon-mounted. Clip-ons require a bunch of extra stuff: strong return-to-zero mount, a tiny pixel-dense screen, and a well-designed de-magnifying lens on the rear eyepiece. It's silly to think you're going to be able to add all that tech and labor to the device and end up at... basically the same price as a non-clip-on thermal. Ergo, the cheapest clip-ons you might recommend to a friend on a budget start at more like $4500 and then the sky is the limit for the really quality ones. For people with a sub-$4k budget there's not really a clip-on worth owning. I agree with others that the new IRay rico micro would fit your needs perfectly but is six grand. You're better off getting a dedicated $3k weapon mounted thermal and finding a used FLIR monocular or something for handheld scanning to find dead deer.

 

[NavyshooterM40]

What I've learned about clip-on thermals is that there is no free lunch.

A just-okay regular thermal starts around $3k for weapon-mounted. Clip-ons require a bunch of extra stuff: strong return-to-zero mount, a tiny pixel-dense screen, and a well-designed de-magnifying lens on the rear eyepiece. It's silly to think you're going to be able to add all that tech and labor to the device and end up at... basically the same price as a non-clip-on thermal. Ergo, the cheapest clip-ons you might recommend to a friend on a budget start at more like $4500 and then the sky is the limit for the really quality ones. For people with a sub-$4k budget there's not really a clip-on worth owning. I agree with others that the new IRay rico micro would fit your needs perfectly but is six grand. You're better off getting a dedicated $3k weapon mounted thermal and finding a used FLIR monocular or something for handheld scanning to find dead deer.

What are the issues with the BTC-50? How does the point of impact shift when the thermal clip on is in front of the scope?

 

[Conqueror]

I confess I have no specific experience with the BTC-50. What I do know is that, because of the issues mentioned above, the average clip-on will have the image quality of a dedicated thermal weapon sight $1-2000 cheaper. The IRay mentioned above is a great example - it basically has the same image quality as the $4000 MH25 monocular, but the extra recoil hardening, demagnification, etc are why it costs $6000. So I'm always suspicious of a clip-on at the 3k price point, because if it has the image quality of a dedicated $1000 thermal sight, that's not going to be a very good image. The BTC-50 is a 17 micron 400x300 sensor which I think is pretty similar to the specs on the Leupold you had in the past, and you said you want better. I don't know about the BTC-50 specifically, but most non-military-type thermal clip-ons use a "zero the screen" function where you can basically shift how the image is displayed on the unit's screen to adjust for POI shift. Once you do that it should return to zero fairly well if the mount is high-quality.

 

[EchoFiveIndia]

Here’s two pics from the Hogster C I had…

looking from behind an Elcan at 1.5x and 6x (Jeep is at ~50 yards)

I used it as a handheld scanner with the clip on lens and a clip on (obviously).
When I look at the pics I kinda wish I hadn’t sold it.

 

[264win]

While I am not an expert, I went down the same road as the op a few years ago. I found a few solutions that worked fairly well until I could afford a dedicated thermal scope and scanner.
(A good clip on doesn’t fit your budget or mine)
You can just get a compact dedicated scope and remove it to use for scanning/ tracking. But I often saw some zero shift I would Mount it back on the rifle.
Having a quality scanner and using a red/white weapon mounted light to shoot with was my preference though.

 

[Absoluterock]

Resurrecting this thread?

Anyone have opinions Burris vs Accufire?

Or other new fun stuff now that Shot Show is wrapped up?

 

[awpk03s]

I can comment on as OP what I ended up doing…

I went with IRayUSA optics, and made two purchases, one a CBL-19 monocular, 384 res, 12um. Second a Rico Bravo scope, 384 res, 12um, 35mm and 3x base zoom.

I’m really happy with the monocular, use it for scanning when predator hunting and deer hunting, as well as tracking/recovering.

The Rico Bravo is really nice for my required uses. I have it zeroed on a 300BLK and a 5.56 AR. It’s perfect for me. My only complaint is the eye box is a little small. You can use as a scope perfectly fine, but to see the whole rectangle of the screen with the menu icons you’ve got to really get your face in there.

A couple of pics here from use.

 

[DIBBS]

What are the approximate distances of the animals in the above photos?

 

[awpk03s]

What are the approximate distances of the animals in the above photos?

Rabbit was with the monocular, 30 yards.

The deer in second pic was with the Rico Bravo, the velvet buck was 40-50.

The third pic of the group of deer, again with Rico Bravo, and closest deer was 60-70 and the farthest ones were ~100.

Give or take a few, I’m approximating a little.

 

[346ci]

I've been playing with a TS25-256 that belongs to a friend. It's mounted on my steel challenge 10/22 right now as a mount platform. I was able to id some yotes in an open field a few nights ago at 200-ish yards. This is my only hands on thermal experience and I think it would be a great introduction into the game. Trying to decide if I want to drop the coin now, I really try to avoid ccp products but AGM seems like a good value for the price.

He has their handheld spotter also but can't remember the model number. Will update when able.

 

[patina]

I am running the Bering Super Yoter 50 and an AGM Micro 384 handheld and am very happy with the performance/$ of both products. Bering units are rock solid and the controls/functions are intuitive and easy. I would have purchased a Bering scanner but found a deal on the ASP Micro that was too good to pass up.

I was running a Super Hogster A3 and using it to scan/shoot. It was OK but the 7.5* FOV was limiting unless you were scanning in big open fields. I feel like the SY product line is worth the slight price increase.

 

[hlee]

Re deer hunting and night vision. I talked to a TPWD person about hunting deer during legal light with a night capable optic. Seems that is a grey area not well defined in the law. I don’t think I would give a game warden the opportunity to think I was night hunting deer.

 

[SCGunner84]

Re deer hunting and night vision. I talked to a TPWD person about hunting deer during legal light with a night capable optic. Seems that is a grey area not well defined in the law. I don’t think I would give a game warden the opportunity to think I was night hunting deer.

This definitely varies by state. I know some
hide members say in their states they cant even have a thermal monocular on them when deer hunting much less anything weapon mountable. My state is not like that, you can use thermal during legal hunting hours and then of course they can’t be used in depredation permit instances.

 

[KM375]

Anyone have any reviews of this? I have looked online and have only found some promo videos from the company.

Incendis PRO Thermal Clip On - Best Thermal Rifle Optic

The Incendis PRO Thermal is the “multi-tool” in your arsenal. The Incendis Thermal clip on provides the user an unparalleled advantage.

www.accufiretech.com