Night Vision Thermals: The Gathering — There can be only one!

[TheHorta]

So, blatantly plagiarizing The Highlander, I would like to propose a not entirely novel idea. In fact, I know it has been done before on some level.

I think we’d all like to know the following:

What is the best thermal monocular?
What is the best dedicated thermal weapon scope?
What is the best thermal clip-on?
What is the best multi-role thermal device?
How do thermals compare to NV for PID?
What do different thermals look like on the same target?
How do different thermals compare in performance during different atmospheric conditions?

We should compare them all: all price ranges, all “types” (handheld, weapon, clip-on, etc) and group them as such, then have The Gathering and choose from the entire bunch, regardless of price / type, because:

There can be only one!

I'll help and contribute (gear, etc), but there are many here who are far more experienced at putting something like this together.

We want to do our best to avoid potential conflicts of interest. Vendors and manufacturers should absolutely participate fully, but there can be no bias or influence. It’s data-gathering only, and where subjective input is made we’ll mark that as clearly being subjective content.

I think this will be both informative and beneficial for all who are on the hunt for the best gear their dollars can afford.

What thinkest thou? Who shall heed the call?

I will ante-up and make my small collection fully available to the Brave Champion(s) who stand up and assume this daunting mantle. I have little doubt others will as well.

 

[BamaSE]

Hold on before ya’ll get started, gotta stock up on nachos, cheesey dip, and beer.....this is gonna get good.....

 

[diggler1833]

I think Wig has a pretty good thing going on with his night shooting report.

There are definitely one or two good comparison videos on YouTube of different manufacturers/models on the same target.

Somebody who can put a lot of time into killing with each one would be Carpe Sus (Youtuber) as he's out 3-4 nights per week. If you're serious about lending stuff, I can ask him if he'd be interested in testing.

Or I'm pretty sure the guys at Ultimate Night Vision could answer most of those questions right off the bat.

 

[tangloppen]

Okay, so who is going to wreck the party with a INOD?

 

[jwramp]

Like this little guy?

 

[TheHorta]

I would love to be “That Guy.”

 

[300NIMP]

Ok so no BS is the inod that much better than UTCXii?

 

[WhereNow&How]

That INOD only has a FOV of 2.48 Degrees. Man that is tight. It also says <3.5 pounds.

So I dunno. Someone chime in that knows.

 

[jeffl838]

The INOD is a piece of ELR equipment. The UTC is not. i would say they fill different roles, but the inod is way cooler

 

[WhereNow&How]

The INOD is a piece of ELR equipment. The UTC is not. i would say they fill different roles, but the inod is way cooler

So when you say ELR equipment, I am assuming "extra long range". What is the effective range of that unit on primate sized critters. Also how much does it weigh. Sounds like you have some time behind it. Tell it all man, tell it all. Inquiring minds want to drool.

 

[NFAJohn]

If in Texas I can provide a facility with camper hook ups (25) and live fire ranges to 1500....just say the word. Had discussed a similar thermal show down with a good friend of mine here recently. In to assist however I can.

 

[jeffl838]

I've used a hiss more than I've used an inod, but they're kind of similar. It's been a while since i've touched either. I don't have a distance for you but it's definitely well over a mile for detecting/engaging. PID obviously depends on a lot more things than just the thermals capabilities so is hard to judge.

if I remember right (i might not be), around 8 power is when the rectangular screen starts turning into a circle... very very narrow fov

 

[WhereNow&How]

I've used a hiss more than I've used an inod, but they're kind of similar. It's been a while since i've touched either. I don't have a distance for you but it's definitely well over a mile for detecting/engaging. PID obviously depends on a lot more things than just the thermals capabilities so is hard to judge.

if I remember right (i might not be), around 8 power is when the rectangular screen starts turning into a circle... very very narrow fov

That's some good info. Is the HISS better then the INOD. Which one do you rate the better unit.

 

[jeffl838]

I never did a side by side but think they might be comparable. Both cooled thermals that burn thru battery’s that take up like a foot of rail. The inod takes up slightly less rail. I think the hiss has some more features but I never used them

 

[WhereNow&How]

I never did a side by side but think they might be comparable. Both cooled thermals that burn thru battery’s that take up like a foot of rail. The inod takes up slightly less rail. I think the hiss has some more features but I never used them

That's some good info. Thanks for the input.

 

[TheHorta]

I’ve spent about 60 minutes behind an INOD. It’s an amazing Unobtanium clip-on, but that’s “all” it is. It can’t be used without a day scope. It can’t be used on a helmet. It can’t be used as a stand-alone TWS.

It would crush all clip-ons, but would lose overall.

1km PID range is pretty damn impressive though. In 5 years it (or something similar) will become commercially available. For “our” testing purposes, however, let’s stick to Obtanium — even if quasi-exotic (LWTS-LR, CRATOS, UTC-Xii, etc).

 

[300NIMP]

Thanks for the information. Sounds like I have what I need ;-)

 

[Lowdown3]

@TheHorta or anyone else that wants to chime in. How do you like the Reap 35mm 640X480 ? Pros and cons?

 

[jeffl838]

Mk2 35mm which has the same sensor/lens. It's a great standalone thermal (super great), I just wish trijicon would update their software and add some functional reticles.

It has a 2.5 power base mag and is very usable at 2x digital zoom, kinda usable at 4x digital zoom.

 

[BamaSE]

Mk2 35mm which has the same sensor/lens. It's a great standalone thermal (super great), I just wish trijicon would update their software and add some functional reticles.

It has a 2.5 power base mag and is very usable at 2x digital zoom, kinda usable at 4x digital zoom.

Ditto what he said. I really wish it had a circle/dot reticle. Makes a great scanner too.....with or without the scope base. Return to zero has been reliable on my 6.8, or at least not noticeable to cause me concern at a 100 yard zero. Base mag in the woods is about perfect, and you can still zoom with good rez in open areas.

I’d add a con that is the same on other high end scopes and that is the lack of an included drop in rechargeable battery system.....provided by the manufacturer that gets several hours of run time. Yes you can run the IRX rechargeable, but still have to fiddle with batteries and a time limit of 2.5-3 hours per set. I have gravitated to the Anker version as those run all night and then some. TNVC has one with a cradle that mounts on the rail. You can also remove the cradle and add a 3” USB extender to the cord and mount the Anker via Velcro and a strap to the rifle stock.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I feel the H.I.S.S. is the best I've ever used!! PID to ungodly distances and I don't give a rats ass on weight or rail space. :-D A cooled array is where it's at and always been.

 

[jeffl838]

Cooled arrays have more resolution at high mag that's for sure.

I'm surprised a dual sensor thermal hasn't good idea fairy'd it's way into existence yet. A WFOV sensor with 15 degrees or so, and then your narrow 2 degree cooled sensor. With digital tech, it'd be possible to overlay the narrow onto the wide too. I'd never touch it cause it'd have to be massive but it'd be neat.

 

[TheHorta]

I’m surprised we don’t have optical zoom thermals readily available. A 1-5x thermal scope would be awesome.

 

[MarinePMI]

Cooled arrays have more resolution at high mag that's for sure.

I'm surprised a dual sensor thermal hasn't good idea fairy'd it's way into existence yet. A WFOV sensor with 15 degrees or so, and then your narrow 2 degree cooled sensor. With digital tech, it'd be possible to overlay the narrow onto the wide too. I'd never touch it cause it'd have to be massive but it'd be neat.

I'd hazard a guess that power would be the main issue with your concept. Even the Gucci hybrid ENVG's that Horta likes to pimp (just ribbing ya ), consume a lot more power than the older tech. More sensors need more power...

 

[TheHorta]

I’d take a HISS even if it came with its own 10Kw generator to power it.

 

[TheHorta]

Can get a legit INOD for anyone who wants one. Only $125K.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I’d take a HISS even if it came with its own 10Kw generator to power it.

I'll take 10 if those. It's still king of the cooled array clip-on hill.

 

[elwarpo]

If in Texas I can provide a facility with camper hook ups (25) and live fire ranges to 1500....just say the word. Had discussed a similar thermal show down with a good friend of mine here recently. In to assist however I can.

I am in and can bring stuff...

 

[PlinkIt]

I can't even afford to read this thread...

 

[WhereNow&How]

I’m surprised we don’t have optical zoom thermals readily available. A 1-5x thermal scope would be awesome.

Well there is a 2 to 4 solution. This is Torrey Pines Logic's sister company. Call up Dr. Leo Volfson and I believe you and he would get along quite well. He does great custom work.

Sector Optics – Afocal FLIR Adapters

sectoroptics.com

 

[wigwamitus]

I think we’d all like to know the following:

What is the best thermal monocular?
What is the best dedicated thermal weapon scope?
What is the best thermal clip-on?
What is the best multi-role thermal device?
How do thermals compare to NV for PID?
What do different thermals look like on the same target?
How do different thermals compare in performance during different atmospheric conditions?

We should compare them all: all price ranges, all “types” (handheld, weapon, clip-on, etc) and group them as such, then have The Gathering and choose from the entire bunch, regardless of price / type, because:

There can be only one!

I certainly have nothing against a gathering ... a gathering can be a good thing from a social perspective (distancing not withstanding )

And I know the majority of horta's posts include a large helping of "tongue in cheek" ... so I allow for that ...

BUTT ...

If this was a semi-serious proposal .. I just wanted to take issue with the FORMULATION of the activity ...


==
I've worked in engineering companies for ~30 years ... what we do is "create widgets that match the requirements at the lowest possible price - given the amount of time we have to work on the product" ...

So what is the meaning of "BEST" ... for us ... and the customers ... BEST is the widget that most closely matches the requirements and the lowest possible cost (within the time constraints allowed).

What are the "requirements" ??

They could include things like "features" ... buttons that do this or that ...etc.

Capabilities like speed, weight, distance, length ... etc.

But it is never without regard to price ... because these companies live in the "business world" ... not in the "hobby world" (a business being an activity that makes money ... and hobby being an activity that consumes money).

So, "best" is virtually an undefined term. That's the first issue.

==

The second issue is "thermal image is not a linear creature" ... as much as we talk about "this image is better than that image" ... it mostly isn't true. What is true it that "right now .. in these conditions ... looking in this direction ... with these settings on these two thermals ... this one can detect the critter ... that one can't .. or this one can PID further and faster on a smaller critter" ...

A mega case in point. When the Pulsars first came out five-ish years ago ... I was all in on Armasight ... and so were zillions of others ... but I got me a pulsar ... and I thought WOW - this thing is pretty danged good !! And I posted about it ... and got SLAMMED .. because the Armasighters would not hear of the idea that something costing half the price of the vaunted ZEUS might be some serious competition on IMAGE. I actually never said it was BETTER ... because even then I knew it was non-linear ... but a lot of folks took it as if I was saying it was better. A I did say it was better at somethings ... sometimes.

I had several neighbors look thru both ... one comment was "This one (Zeus) see the dots better (mice on a dirt pile at 50yds) .. but that one (Pulsar) sees the terrain better (the yard and vehicles and trees)" ... and it was true. But what else was true ? The Pulsar was auto-nucing (the default setting) ... a LOT during the first 5 mins, the Zeus was not. The pulsar had its default settings, the Zeus had its default settings. The Zeus with higher contrast could detect the critters better, the pulsar with its settings could see the background (terrain) better. But over the next few weeks I took them out night after night and adjusted the hecque out of them ... and compared them at different distances in different settings in different conditions ... and nuc'ed them the same amount in the same period of time ... and found that the Zeus could PID further out faster on smaller critters. The Zeus could see 3 hand warms in a lump at 500yds ... the pulsar could not. The pulsar advantage was closer in at lower magnification ... with that constraint the pulsar's display of the trees was still superior ... more detail inside 300yds.

But could I make a blanket statement that one was better than the other ?? Not remotely. Too many variables. It was not a linear space.

==
And in subsequent comparisons between thermals .. I typically see the same sort of phenomena. For instance, a recent chinesium thermal, the AGM TC50 ... with a 1024 display ... looked phenomenal on 2.5x at 25 yds ... looking at my calves (see night shooting report back in Nov 2019 IIRC) ... but at 500yds on heated steel .. while I could see well enough to the hit target ... it was really fuzzy ... and I would not consider it to be adequate) ... and that was not withstanding the recoil issues the unit had. But even this lowly unit was competitive at short distances and low magnification ... though not at higher magnification and longer distances.

==

So, two challenges to the idea of a big gathering to "find the Best":

01 - "Best" must be related to some set of requirements and to price.

02 - Thermal image is a non-linear attribute ... a multi-dimensional attribute ... and hence cannot typically be rated in a linear scale.

==
Sorry for the overly serious disruption to the party ... please get back to it !!

 

[WhereNow&How]

@wigwamitus That was a very spot on analysis of the situation for sure.

 

[NFAJohn]

@wigwamitus and @WhereNow&How I think the first thing to do would be to hammer out price ranges....maybe
3000 and under
3000-8000
8000-15K
15K to the moon, but uncooled units only?

Maybe after that make a matrix of measurable performance points? Some would be yes or no, others would be subjective.

At "The gathering" have all units side by side and ask participants to give there reaction to the subjective points, collect data, find average and make a net score? -2 points if the unit is made by Joe Chink.

 

[TheHorta]

Let’s do this! I’m all-in.

I’m ADHD, so details bore me. I’d be more than happy to see Wig/NFA (and whomever else) take point on this.

Just point and I’ll do.

 

[NFAJohn]

Make some points of performance and I'll cook up a spread sheet.

 

[jeffl838]

I would say the most important criteria to ensure apples to apples is FOV.

Ie, something that would be very productive:

Determine FOV brackets, a few categories of performance (like: image, widgets/features, SWaP, versatility in use, warranty)
Rank them within those categories fairly objectively
Rank them within the FOV brackets overall with those categorical metrics with a little subjectivity
New guy will buy the nicest one that he can afford within the FOV bracket that suits his uses

I think most people would find the hiss or inod almost totally unusable, especially if you don't have a wfov sensor to pair with it.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@wigwamitus and @WhereNow&How I think the first thing to do would be to hammer out price ranges....maybe
3000 and under
3000-8000
8000-15K
15K to the moon, but uncooled units only?

Maybe after that make a matrix of measurable performance points? Some would be yes or no, others would be subjective.
View attachment 7392471

At "The gathering" have all units side by side and ask participants to give there reaction to the subjective points, collect data, find average and make a net score? -2 points if the unit is made by Joe Chink.

Count me out of any of that. My pay grade ain't high enough. Wig and Horta can easily handle that without my 2 cents.

Actually Wig hit on some important things about how the Cores/Systems perform. I don't get all wrapped to tight about that. They all do pretty good.

For me, it is more about the form of the unit, ruggedness, reliability and ability to run internal rechargeable batteries and external batteries. Plus a Thermal units ability to fit onto and integrate well with my other stuff on my rifle. For me the Flir PTS line did all of that "Globally" much better than any other offerings.

While one may have a better core that DIR (Detect, Identify, Recognize) over another, if I got the lessor performer, I can typically even the end results by just taking a few more skillful moves. There is many a man out there that has killed way more deer with a 22 than some with 300 Win Mags.

While it is very interesting for me to see all this data, video, pictures, etc, at the end of the day, they all pretty decent performers.

Again: Form factor, solid construction, reliability, ruggedness, ability to use internal rechargeable battery and integration with the rest of my kit and price point are the more deciding factors for me.

 

[NFAJohn]

Count me out of any of that. My pay grade ain't high enough. Wig and Horta can easily handle that without my 2 cents.

Actually Wig hit on some important things about how the Cores/Systems perform. I don't get all wrapped to tight about that. They all do pretty good.

For me, it is more about the form of the unit, ruggedness, reliability and ability to run internal rechargeable batteries and external batteries. Plus a Thermal units ability to fit onto and integrate well with my other stuff on my rifle. For me the Flir PTS line did all of that "Globally" much better than any other offerings.

While one may have a better core that DIR (Detect, Identify, Recognize) over another, if I got the lessor performer, I can typically even the end results by just taking a few more skillful moves. There is many a man out there that has killed way more deer with a 22 than some with 300 Win Mags.

While it is very interesting for me to see all this data, video, pictures, etc, at the end of the day, they all pretty decent performers.

Again: Form factor, solid construction, reliability, ruggedness, ability to use internal rechargeable battery and integration with the rest of my kit and price point are the more deciding factors for me.

My first unit was the flir 233, it ticked a ton of boxes despite the teething issues. It's a damn shame the product line didn't get more development...a 336 with a 640 core would have been pretty neat.....at this point Nvision seems to actually listen to what the consumers are wanting more than anyone else. I'm with you that best is hard to determine as we all have a different definition of what is success and what is failure based on our end goal requirements.

 

[bullseye13]

An important and overlooked aspect to this test would be the unbiased opinion of an average joe like myself. Please send listed units to me for long term testing. I would be happy to tackle that burden.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I would say the most important criteria to ensure apples to apples is FOV.

Ie, something that would be very productive:

Determine FOV brackets, a few categories of performance (like: image, widgets/features, SWaP, versatility in use, warranty)
Rank them within those categories fairly objectively
Rank them within the FOV brackets overall with those categorical metrics with a little subjectivity
New guy will buy the nicest one that he can afford within the FOV bracket that suits his uses

I think most people would find the hiss or inod almost totally unusable, especially if you don't have a wfov sensor to pair with it.

I think you hit a big nail on the head with this category. What you stated is very true and important.

I grew up shooting live game at reasonably long 400 to 500 yard ranges and have a taste for a lot of magnification with narrower FOV. Because of the years of shooting that way I am able to get on and following moving/running game probably better than most and for me it actually results in more running hits because I have a much better awareness of where my cross hairs are tracking on my lead for real. All of that was Kentucky windage as well. No firing solution time for adjustments. Some would call it tunnel vision, but for me on running game tunnel vision always works better.

So a cheap ass wide FOV spotter (Breach in my case) to just detect and a narrow FOV (4.5x or 6x native) on my rifle works best for me. Most others would not care for that at all.

 

[NFAJohn]

I think you hit a big nail on the head with this category. What you stated is very true and important.

I grew up shooting live game at reasonably long 400 to 500 yard ranges and have a taste for a lot of magnification with narrower FOV. Because of the years of shooting that way I am able to get on and following moving/running game probably better than most and for me it actually results in more running hits because I have a much better awareness of where my cross hairs are tracking on my lead for real. Some would call it tunnel vision, but for me on running game tunnel vision always works better.

So a cheap ass wide FOV spotter (Breach in my case) to just detect and a narrow FOV (4.5x or 6x native) on my rifle works best for me. Most others would not care for that at all.

Maybe comparing the FOV of the unit in person to what the manufacturer clamis it is will be easier to quantify in a scoring matrix.

For example, Manucatures says is has 15' fov at 100 and its 15' 1 point, but if it 8' 0 points.

I think trying to eliminate as many subjective data points as possible will help produce scores that are more comparable across a wide array of products from different manufactures. Does the product do what it is advertised to do is the question that is easiest to answer without person bias interference, but to totally contradict myself my image quality rating system uses holy shit as the high watermark of performance lol

 

[WhereNow&How]

Maybe comparing the FOV of the unit in person to what the manufacturer clamis it is will be easier to quantify in a scoring matrix.

For example, Manucatures says is has 15' fov at 100 and its 15' 1 point, but if it 8' 0 points.

I think trying to eliminate as many subjective data points as possible will help produce scores that are more comparable across a wide array of products from different manufactures. Does the product do what it is advertised to do is the question that is easiest to answer without person bias interference, but to totally contradict myself my image quality rating system uses holy shit as the high watermark of performance lol

Yeah, Id say your high watermark rating is universally spoken out there.

I tell you what is funny. Man on some nights the thermal conditions are so good, I get the Holy Shit thought out of my Breach. LOL
Other nights I'm like oh shit. Gotta jack the crap up out of the Gain.

But the truth of it all is some nights the view is excellent and some nights piss poor. So once you really get used to that, it is easy to understand and accept.

 

[NFAJohn]

Yeah, Id say your high watermark rating is universally spoken out there.

I tell you what is funny. Man on some nights the thermal conditions are so good, I get the Holy Shit thought out of my Breach. LOL
Other nights I'm like oh shit. Gotta jack the crap up out of the Gain.

But the truth of it all is some nights the view is excellent and some nights piss poor. So once you really get used to that, it is easy to understand and accept.

lol for sure, you could go full rain man on this shit chasing conditions. My deal is you line em up side by side and take your subjective look and score within say 10 mins of each other and just give them a 0-3. The better, here we go getting subjective again, units will have a more use able image than a not as better, Texas English, unit in the same conditions. I think, maybe.

 

[TheHorta]

Agree on:

FOV measurement. Put up a fixed 2x4 at 50’ and have a second, moveable 2x4 to mark the other extent. Don’t use “diagonal” but flat horizontal view.

2-3 “Average Joes” for real world feedback.

Price catagories.

Types / mono/multitasking thermals. (monocular, weapon, helmet, etc)

Other features (LRF, IR laser, video out / record, external battery support, IP weather rating, weight / size, internal/automatic NUC vs manual-only, etc).

***REAL/Genuine/No BS detection and ID ranges.***

Handling adverse ambient / atmospheric / weather conditions.

Usability / ergonomics.

 

[WhereNow&How]

AND THE RESULTS ARE IN:

 

[wigwamitus]

Sorry, I was late Mr teacher !!

Thermal attributes

Function:

Spotter,
Dedicated Scope,
Clipon

And yes some are multi-function, but usually were intended to be one first. But a classification of a thermal could include more than one selection in the attribute

==

Price Band:

Under $5000

$5000 to under $10k

$10k plus

The under $5k band basically includes all the non-USA made units, the entry level thermal units, the chinese units, Eastern european units, etc.

The $5k to $10k block is the "mid market" band and includes all the trijicons and n-vision units including mostly their used pricing, though used can dip down below $5k as well.

People get "dazzled" by the MSRP shown pricing. Street pricing is totally different. Get on the phone with 3 dealers and make them an offer and be prepared to walk away. My first rule of negotiation "You can't negotiate if you can't walk away". Don't get wedded to one dealer. Keep your options open. Talk to them on the phone. You will learn from all of them.

The $10k plus band is the military crap. Not for everyone, but I am amazed at how many people are in this band. I said I would never be in that band ... until I was ... I had to borrow from myself and pay it back, with wife looking over shoulder checking !!! ... but then I went there again. If you have a job and can prioritize, you can get in to the over $10k band. It took me 18 months to pay back that first loan.


But I think we only need three bands. That's my humble opinion ... and it seems to nicely divide the market also.

==

FOV vs Magnification

These are essentially trade-offs within the same space ... its more of one and less of the other. Pick your poison.

==
Ergpnomics - this might be like "how hard is it to change batts in the field?" ... could be subjective

user interface - this is like button layout, menu layout ... some of this could get pretty subjective

==
Size
Weight
Lens size - we usually don't have this. If you try to measure it what are you measuring? Its probably best if we skip this attribute.
Focal length (most of the mm we see are actually focal length, not lens diameter, they are different) these can be recorded if known, though they are not always known, in which case they are NA.
==
Video - some thermals are much better at supporting video than others

==
Battery packs - I'm pretty much in the "change em in the field" camp, but others like battery packs. Does this thermal support several options for battery packs or 1 option or no options ?

==
Image - oh boy ... this is the most subjective of all ... but some people make purchasing decisions soley on their perception of the image of a unit (based on videos made to selll produce or at least selected from groups of videos to pick the best ones) ... other make decisions based on price and image perception. As I tried to indicate in earlier post, image is a multi-determined attribute and elusive as well.
I have a UTC-x it has a great image ... BUT ... one night ... that image might be outstanding ... truely impressive ... the very next night ... in the same spot on my land .. .doing the same activity ... that image could SUCQUE ... this is the total truth.

If this gathering rates thermals on image ... it will be for one night ... in one spot ... looking in one direction ? I think it will be a random crap shoot. But this one should be called "subjective" for sure.

In my experience their are three factors that go into image

Conditions
Operator experience+experience with that unit
The unit itself

For the most part, I think conditions contribute the most and of course they are highly variable.
After that, I think operator experience contributes the most. When I first went out with thermal I sucqued at optimizing my image. Now, 7 years later, I am 5000% batter at it. I turn the knobs and push the buttons continuously all night long, optimizing that image.
Next, operator experience with the unit contributes a lot. A few units are pretty danged fancy ... with as many as 6 different knobs or buttons that control image ... the COTI and the A55 are examples of those. I stil don't feel like I've mastered those two. Whereas the bulk of thermals I do, the trijicons, well all the BAE coreed devices and the FLIR cored devices and the pulsars ... I feel solid on those.
And believe it or not, I think the unit itself contributes the least to the image I see at a given moment, looking in a given diretion. Yup, that's the truth folks !

We can record the sensor resolution and the display resolution ... these will definitely be objective factors.

==
Manual focus ... I've had ATN ODIN and numerous Trijicons with fixed focus ... and they worked great ... the breach and COTI also have fixed focus. But given a choice, I'd rather have manual focus and would pay extra for it. But for those of you wanting the lowest possible cost units ... looking for units that have fixed focus, could be useful.

==
Head mountable ... some spotters and even one clipon (the SNIPE) are head mountable. Some of us think this is a useful attribute.

==
Reliable/Rugged
There might be some objective and subjective aspects to this. Like I just T&Es a thermion XP50 and it was flawless. Another guy got one right around the same time and it was broke out of the box.

==
Support - can it be fixed quickly ?? Again, this will be mostly based on experience. I'd rate my experience with Trijicon CS as A+ and my experience with ATN CS as C-


==
So I hope I only forgot about 20 other attributes, but here ^^ is a start on making an attribute list.

I think these attributes fall into two different categories

Data/Objective: Length and weight for instance, find the numbers and write them down.

Subjective/Opinion: Like image of course


==
For the Data/objective factors, I think we would write our REQUIREMENTS around these factors.

Like I want a clipon with a 60mm focal length and a manual focus, in the $5k to $10k price range .. that supports at least 8x on the day scope. And is rugged and reliable. And has at least a 1024 display on the back. And can be repaired in the USA.
(note I don't require 640 on the sensor and this is because I don't think that is essential, especially for a clipon. This DISPLAY is king!)
And I want collimation, i.e. optical wedge/risley prism so if I mount within tolerance no adjustments allowed or required. IPX7+

that ^^ is one requirment.

The next

A head mounted thermal, under $5k ... basically "what the breach should have been" unit. Ideally manual focus, but if fixed focus, then fixed focus farther out than the breach. I could PID a yote at 500yds with the ODIN. Needs a battery pack option. IPX7+


So we aren't rating the thermals on these objective attributes, we make them part of our requirements. We "rate" on the subjective elements.

Typing too much, gotta get back to the day job !!

 

[wigwamitus]

... So when you say ELR equipment, I am assuming "extra long range". What is the effective range of that unit on primate sized critters

IIRC The DRS SPARTN supports up to 25x on the day scope.

https://www.leonardodrs.com/media/3993/spartn_datasheet.pdf

Whereas the UTC-x/xii supports up to 16x on the day scope.

The "effective range" however, is mostly dependent upon the operator.

On my land I shoot out to 1000m and at 900-100m I am typically on 15x on the day scope. I'm going for first rd hits on 12 inch steel IPSC(2/3) ... so with me shootin ... the effective range of the UTC-x is 1000m. I would not expect the DRS SPARTN to be any different with me shootin because I'd still be on 15x. I use no dial reticles (since I use rifle mounted range finders) ... and above 15x I'm holding too far down in the glass, I want to be off the bottom 1/3 of the glass, so I dial the magnification down.

But with somebody else shootin with a different reticle and more gun ... and dialing their elevation (I don't dial) ... they could get out to 1200m at night, if they can do it in the day ... and they practice doing it night a day a lot. Could they get further? It would depend on the operator. But first round hits get geometrically harder as the distance increases. The wind conquerors all right now. The wind is still the boss (not the thermal). But I'm going for first round hits. Zero points for a miss, 1 point for a hit. Nice and simple. Then move to a different UKD and setup the next shot.

If you use the 1x per 100m rule ... then in theory the UTC-x/xii can get out to 1600m and the DRS SPARTN can get out to 2500m ... but that's total theory ... the operator, the gear, the conditions all contribute heavily to making a shot like that.

 

[NFAJohn]

Me taking a handful of Adderall trying to figure out how to build a spread sheet to measure @wigwamitus input

 

[PlinkIt]

When the Adderall wears off

 

[texasleftychef]

Lot of truth in Wigs last two posts. Almost sticky kind of stuff. I agree conditions would be the worst problem for the comparison unless you could find a weekend with huge weather changes and have enough people involved. In my opinion that seems to the one thing that seperates the men from the boys.

That being said I think it could be done. I’ve been a member here for about ten years and in my opinion the optics guy Ilya, aka Dark Lord of Optics has pretty much set the standard in how to rate things that are so subjective. I would start with a lot of the parameters he uses and then go from there. Or even ask for his input.

All that being said I’d say to include product line range has bearing too. I have the Reap 35 and wanted a longer range thermal. I really wanted to get the Halo LR but the increase in magnification didn’t seem enough so I went with the Reap 60. Also for working with something in the dark I like having the same controls.

Finally I thought I was pretty well informed until recently when I see guys like Horta and some others that have equipment that I’ve never seen or even heard of so those may need to be differentiated as well. Or a least a primer for those of us in 4runners and not Range Rovers. Not as a shot at you guys that can afford it but to educate the rest of us as to what’s even available to get. Or I can inform myself as well if I even knew the name of the equipment. Or an invitation to the secret forum to where these things are discussed.

Anyways my two cents.

Cliffs - in for the gathering With my two reaps and pvs30 1964, comparison hard but possible, pick the worst weather period possible.