Hunting & Fishing Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

[JWGILLAM]

Looking to extend my deer hunting season Been looking at Muzzle loaders till I'm blue in the face. thinking about buying a CVA Wolf for $150 any other suggestions for a decent cheap Muzzleloader. Any serious Input on this subject is appreciated, Help me out here

Thanks

Justin

 

[noahmercy]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

You probably won't like my input, but here goes;

I believe that if I'm going to use a muzzleloader, it's going to look like a muzzleloader and perform like one. I shoot roundballs or cast conicals from sidelocks. One is a Lyman .54 I built from a kit. The other is a .45 caliber Pennsylvania-style rifle I bought from a gent who built it 30 years ago. I'm currently working on a Sharon fullstock Hawken .54 cal.

I highly recommend a Lyman Plains Rifle for a first frontstuffer. It is traditional, accurate, durable, and F-U-N. Real black powder and patched roundballs make meat just as well as any of the abortions the manufacturers are calling "muzzleloaders" today. I can hit a prairie dog at 150 yards more often than not with my Lyman, offhand with open sights. I have yet to see a modern 209 primed, substitute-burning, sabot-launching fiberglass stocked eyesore that can keep up. (And I've owned a couple inlines!)

I am far from a Luddite, but to me, a muzzleloader should have the lock on the side and smell like sulphur when fired!

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

agree with noah, smoke and sulfur, it adds to the experience.

but on the other hand, i've also enjoyed hunting with an inline. in the end, if your budget only allows you to get one of the more economy muzzleloaders, you still can't go wrong.

but in the end you owe it to the animal to take the best shot you can, and being effective with either a traditional muzzleloader or inline is the hunter's responsiblility. if you have the patience and skill to wait and take the appropriate shot with the traditional stuff, that is the way i would go.

 

[wadevb1]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

I shoot the majority of my deer with my Encore. 90 grains of BH209 under a Barnes Expander gets the job done pronto.

I personally woundn't entertain getting a blued MZ. I prefer SS. Others are free to disagree with me.

MZ hunting late season with a blanket of fresh snow doesn't get much better IMO.

 

[noahmercy]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

but in the end you owe it to the animal to take the best shot you can, and being effective with either a traditional muzzleloader or inline is the hunter's responsiblility.

</div></div>

I couldn't agree more, pard. By all means, shoot what ya' want and what you can afford. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Any</span></span> hunting beats no hunting!

Wade, the steel on my smokepoles is actually browned. (I agree with you on bluing...bleah!) Some old timers convinced me to use this more traditional finish, and I'll be doggoned if it isn't one of the best non-chemical finishes I've ever seen. It's dull, so it doesn't produce any game-spooking reflections, and it is incredibly resistant to corrosion. I actually have stainless guns that will show fingerprints before my browned rifles! <span style="font-style: italic">During</span>the process, though, I was pretty much freaking out. It involves coating the parts in browning solution (I use Laurel Mountain Forge brand) and hanging them in a humid area...after the first day the steel was covered with orange fuzz! The final finsh, though, is a warm matte chocolate.

 

[patriotoutlaw]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

My son has a CVA Wolf. For the $ there ain't a thing wrong with it in my opinion. Especially if you are just looking to extend your season and have more hunting oppurtunities. If you aren't crazy about cleaning, stay away from "tradional" styles. Find something that is relatively easy to clean. Such as a break open type action. Myself, I bought a Remington 700 ML when they were the easiest to clean ML on the market. After a 209 conversion kit, it is as good as it gets for me. One ragged 5 shot hole @ 100 yds with 250gr. SST's and 150gr. of Pyrodex Select. There are cleaner powders and 209 primers out there now, though.I am just staying with what works. Hope this helps.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

My Brother bought me a Cabela's Traditions Shenandoah sidelock percussion rifle as a gift. It's a .50 caliber 33" barreled 1:66" frontstuffer, simplified by the exclusion of the ornamental patchbox. It's shot patched ball and 295gr Power-Belt projectiles with surprisingly excellent accuracy.

Nothing like a percussion rifle to teach one followthrough.

It's harvested deer for me, but is mainly a sideline firearm these days. I found that the lack of a followup shot prompted me pass up far too many brief shots.

It has also taught me to develop my pointing skills as opposed to aiming skills. Do it right and the difference in POI is pretty danged small.

Subsequent development included trying (and liking) 20ga slug guns, and more recently, centerfire rifle was adde to the list of permitted implements. So I basically hunt my deer with .30-'06, .280, or .44 Mag rifles these days.

Greg

 

[mrlhunt]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

I have 2 older WHite muzzleloaders. They are GREAT shooters and can be found secondhand.....

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

There was a guy in the classifieds section here a while back that had a Knight Rifle for $175. That rifle was a steal at that price. Check the classifieds and see if he sold it. Tom.

 

[spaniel]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

1) T/C (older Omegas are the cream of the crop, Encores are hit-or-miss for accuracy, never break-action ok)
2) Knight - Not making guns right now but a used Elite or Wolverine with a well-maintained barrel is a keeper
3) White - loyal following, so loyal they are hard to find used
4) CVA - Cheaper end but quality increased in recent years, just fine starter rifle for 100 yards or so
5) Traditions - Run, and run fast from them (I've owned 2, don't waste your money. Their traditional stuff is ok, inline stuff is the crappiest out there)

I did not mention the Savage due to your expressed price range, but if smokeless is legal in your state is a good but more expensive option.

I started with a $120 Traditions caplock, it was fine after a trigger job but the barrel went south after about 6 years despite TLC. Went to a Traditions inline which is the only gun I ever told, the trigger was not safe adjusted to under 8 lbs. Then a T/C Omega, the older and better made ones, a sweet gun shooting MOA out to 400 yds and took deer to 338 yds. Just replaced it with a homemade Savage-based smokeless ML.

My T/C Omega X7 is my favorite non-smokeless ML...short, light, and peep sights.

 

[JWGILLAM]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

I got a Pm from someone telling me about and who had the knight in the for sale section( thanks for that), it looks like a great deal at that price. i'm just a little concerned about buying a used one given how needy Bp is with care. I am definatly just looking to extend deer season not be an avid BP shooter. I actually went to Wally world today to buy the Wolf, Had my cart loaded up with all the shit i would need to go with it. asked the guy to get one out of the case when i noticed that the ones they had were the older ones without the QRBP. (quick release breech plug) which is what i really liked about them. so now I will probably take an xtra $100 out of my black rifle or better scope cash stash and buy the optima instead. Thanks for all the responses

Justin

 

[spaniel]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

The Optima is not a bad rifle.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

Before my Traditions rifle arrived, I was taking turns sharing a Lyman Great Plains 50cal Sidelock percussion rifle with its owner, my hunting mentor 1SG, now deceased. It was without doubt a lovely, well built, and reliable rifle, and especially liked the Lyman Maxi's.

Greg

 

[mrlhunt]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

If you look around, there a quite a few quality muzzleloaders secondhand on the market in gunbroker

 

[Guest]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

The Savage is more expensive, but it is worth it.
As mentioned above, if smokeless is legal there, it's the only way to go.

Once you get into it and have some cash later on, you can order custom barrels from Pacnor and build a .45 caliber smokeless tackdriver.

 

[reeljob]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Savage is more expensive, but it is worth it.
As mentioned above, if smokeless is legal there, it's the only way to go.

Once you get into it and have some cash later on, you can order custom barrels from Pacnor and build a .45 caliber smokeless tackdriver. </div></div>

+ 1 on the Savage ML10. These guns will shoot and not having to go through the cleaning process is a plus. I also like the non existent smoke cloud which allows you to see where your shot went!

For me it came down to, do I want to hunt or stick with the nostalgic side of muzzleloading, I chose killin critters!

 

[noahmercy]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reeljob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For me it came down to, do I want to hunt or stick with the nostalgic side of muzzleloading, I chose killin critters! </div></div>

Wow, and all this time I was shooting deer with my sidelock I thought I was hunting. Damn! Thanks for setting us straight...

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reeljob</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Savage is more expensive, but it is worth it.
As mentioned above, if smokeless is legal there, it's the only way to go.

Once you get into it and have some cash later on, you can order custom barrels from Pacnor and build a .45 caliber smokeless tackdriver. </div></div>

+ 1 on the Savage ML10. These guns will shoot and not having to go through the cleaning process is a plus. I also like the non existent smoke cloud which allows you to see where your shot went!

For me it came down to, do I want to hunt or stick with the nostalgic side of muzzleloading, I chose killin critters! </div></div>

You might want to think about getting it threaded for a Brake,then you could put a suppressor on later down the road.

 

[spaniel]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Savage is more expensive, but it is worth it.
As mentioned above, if smokeless is legal there, it's the only way to go.

Once you get into it and have some cash later on, you can order custom barrels from Pacnor and build a .45 caliber smokeless tackdriver. </div></div>

If one wants to go that route, I highly advise starting out there. I bought a Savage centerfire and set it up as a switch-barrel so I have my smokeless ML AND a 243Win in one gun.

The .50 the Savage 10-ML II comes with simply cannot perform with the .45.

Regarding the whole traditional v modern argument, I wonder how you traditionalists got on here, you must think centerfires are straight from the devil himself. I own rifles along the whole spectrum, darned if they aren't all fun to shoot and hunt with. The whole argument is silly.

 

[reeljob]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noah Mercy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reeljob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For me it came down to, do I want to hunt or stick with the nostalgic side of muzzleloading, I chose killin critters! </div></div>

Wow, and all this time I was shooting deer with my sidelock I thought I was hunting. Damn! Thanks for setting us straight...

</div></div>

I did not intend to step on toes. I have taken many deer with a sidelock and patch round balls and was dead set against buying an inline when they were made legal. I grew up around my dads collection of original kentuckys and pennsylvania rifles and my first black powder deer as a kid was with a custom Robert Watts Kentucky rifle in .45 with a patched ball, a nice seven point.
I hunted with two Knight rifles once I gave into the inline craze.My attention has became more focused on extending my season.The Savage ML has increasd my effective range far exceeding what I could do with the sidelock and the ease of cleaning a smokeless ML verses the mess of blackpowder and substitutes is a burden lifted. As a personal preference I prefer the Savage, and each one to his own in the decision. it comes down to what we as hunters get the most personal satisfaction from. For me its about sitting in the woods enjoying the solitude, leaving work behind for a short while and it doesn't matter much what rifle I am holding as long as I am there.As hunters we need to stick together and not knock anyones methods as long as they are reasonable and above all ethical!
My preferences are:
Sidelock---- .50 cal Traditions 1 in 66 twist,FFG and a patched ball.
Inline---- .50 cal Encore with triple seven and Hornady SST
Smokeless--.50 cal Savage ML 10, Hornady SST, I do not shoot a savage recommended powder so I want list it, but 1" or less at a 100 all day!
Good Hunting, Reeljob

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Regarding the whole traditional v modern argument, I wonder how you traditionalists got on here, you must think centerfires are straight from the devil himself. I own rifles along the whole spectrum, darned if they aren't all fun to shoot and hunt with. The whole argument is silly. </div></div>

We "Traditionalists" got on here the same way you did,via the WWW,most of us are even smart enough to fill out our profile in 4 1/2 years.That is pertinent in this argument as some states,mine included,do not allow 209 primers and the cap must be exposed to the weather,no optical sights are allowed either.Part of the more generous season should be the hunter handicapping himself with a True Primitive Weapon,instead of a Modern Weapon designed to fit through a Loophole.JMHO.

As far as how effective our "Traditional" Muzzleloaders are,one only have a good knowledge of the Hunting units in WA State and where the true Monster deer come from,then look at the Early Season Units open for Muzzleloader Hunting Deer.They are open for Archery and Modern only.

 

[noahmercy]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Regarding the whole traditional v modern argument, I wonder how you traditionalists got on here, you must think centerfires are straight from the devil himself. I own rifles along the whole spectrum, darned if they aren't all fun to shoot and hunt with. The whole argument is silly. </div></div>

I don't even think of it as an argument, but as a debate among brother hunters. By keeping disagreements civil and using facts and personal observations to support our "side", there is no reason a group who has as much in common as those of us on the Hide should have to put up with anything but good natured ribbing over our personal views and choices. (And yes, by God, they <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> all fun to shoot aren't they?)

As to how some traditional muzzleloader hunters got onto this site, many of us are lovers of all things gun. I own flintlocks, caplocks, rimfires, and centerfires. (I'll be adding a matchlock and wheellock before long.) I also own single shots, single actions, lever actions, bolt actions, semi autos, and revolvers and shoot all my guns in competitions and in the hunting fields. It's fun because I can experience the evolution of firearms firsthand and actually see how the various changes have impacted their effectiveness.

I don't accept that a modern inline muzzleloader is a <span style="font-style: italic">better</span> hunting firearm than one built in 1750. They just make it easier for the hunters who don't want to (or can't) put in as much practice and effort into their hunt to harvest game. I accept that with today's demands on our time that some folks just can't spend as much time developing their skills with open sights and the fieldcraft needed to get relatively close to game. To many traditional muzzleloading hunters (as well as archers and handgun hunters), that is a good deal of the appeal.

I don't buy into the fallacy that the residue from real black powder is harder to clean than the substitutes. By using the proper solvents and lubricants (CRITICAL!), my black powder guns clean much more quickly and easily than my smokeless guns. I can get my Lyman clean enough for a white glove inspection in less than five minutes (the residue from the percussion caps takes over three of those!). I have shot several 70-round matches without having to swab and my last shots groups just as tight as the first. Most modern centerfire rifles can't make this claim.

Accuracy? Anyone who doesn't think that Scheutzen rifles and the guns shot at long range black powder matches are more than acceptably accurate while burning charcoal probably hasn't seen this kind of competition. Single digit ESs are quite common with black powder, meaning verical dispersion is almost entirely dependent upon projectile, environmental factors, and the shooter.

I don't believe that a modern jacketed projectile measuring .452" is any more lethal to a pronghorn, whitetail, mulie, or elk than a lead ball measuring .530" or a conical measuring .540", because I have either shot or seen shot numerous animals with all of the above. That big soft slug slaps thin skinned game animals with serious authority. Today, many folks have forgotten that a large diameter bullet travelling at moderate velocity is still one of the most reliable game stoppers on the planet.

How many <span style="font-style: italic">centuries</span> did people feed themselves with muzzleloaders shooting black powder and lead bullets? Saying that they are not perfectly capable hunting firearms would obviously be inaccurate. Yes, they have evolved, but does that make the modern version superior? Only if you want them to be, <span style="font-style: italic">and that's fine</span>. I won't bash anyone for their belief, but I do like to see both sides presented with facts and observations to support each. It's only fair to all involved.

 

[XTR]

Re: Thinking about muzzle loader hunting

I started this season, picked up a Knight Rolling Block in stainless. It would be nice to have a traditional, but I like the reliability and performance of the inline. (not to mention ease of cleaning) The first time I took it to the range and one holed the second shot (ballistic tip sabots) at 50 yds my experienced buddy who was there to coach me was ready to go and get himself one. (says it shoots better than either of his in-lines)

And the Bushnell DOA (250) was spot on at 200 after I zeroed at 100, another thing he said he wished he'd been willing to trust the technology and try.

I think I paid less than $200 for the rifle on sale at Bass Pro. I'm diggin it. I'm playing with triple 7 both loose powder and pellets. I've heard that you get better velocity from an equal load of lose over pellets, but loading 100gr I seem to get the same POI from both shooting 250g sabots. I'll take my chrony next time I go to the range and see what's really going on.

Just remember to clean it when you get home, the substitutes may not be quite as corrosive as the real thing, but I've seen a completely un-usable rifle that someone put back in the rack w/o cleaning.