Thinking about switching to a gas gun

[DAVID1989]

So I'm thinking about switching to a gas gun for long range and local matches. Right now I'm running a custom 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun but I've been really wanting to switch over to a semi, particularly the seekins sp10 in 6.5. I know opinions vary but just want to give it a shot. Besides the obvious what's the biggest difference between running a bolt gun vs gas gun? I've heard where fundamentals can make or break you on the semi. Any other big differences or challenges to running the AR 10 accurately at long distance? Or am I just crazy for considering selling my custom to get into a gas gun? Also, any other rigs i should consider in the 2500 price point?
Thanks guys

 

[VegasHKShooter]

The one thing I have been told, noticed, in my limited experience shooting PRS Style matches is that bolt guns are far more forgiving. With a gasser, the lock time is SIGNIFICANTLY longer. The recoil impulse is vastly different as well. The bolt gun has one recoil impulse, the one from the round ignites and leaves the barrel. The gasser has one when the bullet leaves, one when the buffer hits the backward travel in the receiver extension, and one as the bolt drives forward, strips the round and goes back into battery. That’s a long winded way to say that the gas gun is not nearly as forgiving of imperfect position, which is common in matches. The different positions matches have us shoot in are far less stable than the typical “prone, with a bi-pod and rear bag.” As I’ve seen, and been told, the bolt gun will allow slight mistakes, and you can still make hits. Bolt guns will also tolerate free recoiling, where a large framed AR may not. Typically, an AR needs a solid surface to recoil against. At least some degree of solid.

None of this means you can’t compete and have fun with your S/A rifle. Most likely you can. It will be tougher though to be competitive with really good shooters running .5 moa bolts.

As an example, often times I’ve seen shooters that can consistently shoot .5” groups with a bolt, and they’ll struggle to shoot 1moa groups with a gasser. Not always, but it happens. Semis are tougher to shoot consistently well.

 

[DAVID1989]

The one thing I have been told, noticed, in my limited experience shooting PRS Style matches is that bolt guns are far more forgiving. With a gasser, the lock time is SIGNIFICANTLY longer. The recoil impulse is vastly different as well. The bolt gun has one recoil impulse, the one from the round ignites and leaves the barrel. The gasser has one when the bullet leaves, one when the buffer hits the backward travel in the receiver extension, and one as the bolt drives forward, strips the round and goes back into battery. That’s a long winded way to say that the gas gun is not nearly as forgiving of imperfect position, which is common in matches. The different positions matches have us shoot in are far less stable than the typical “prone, with a bi-pod and rear bag.” As I’ve seen, and been told, the bolt gun will allow slight mistakes, and you can still make hits. Bolt guns will also tolerate free recoiling, where a large framed AR may not. Typically, an AR needs a solid surface to recoil against. At least some degree of solid.

None of this means you can’t compete and have fun with your S/A rifle. Most likely you can. It will be tougher though to be competitive with really good shooters running .5 moa bolts.

As an example, often times I’ve seen shooters that can consistently shoot .5” groups with a bolt, and they’ll struggle to shoot 1moa groups with a gasser. Not always, but it happens. Semis are tougher to shoot consistently well.

That's my biggest issue wanting to switch over and try it out. Might just save up and get the seekins and keep my bolt gun too.

 

[BCX]

My Custom Precision Firearm 6.5 Grendel w Bartlein barrel is a tack driver at long range. Out to 800 good to go. The way the state laws are going w AR style rifles always keep a bolt gun and a pump shotgun.

 

[BCX]

600 yards prone off bipod w rear bag w 1-8 scope and factory ammo. Not to bad for a gas gun w Geisselle 3g trigger lol

 

[sanpedroranch]

I use both. I don't find myself handicapped except for barrel length. I would say my 18" gas gun 6.5 Creedmoor is handicapped at 1000 yards and we go to 1200 at my local match. I just can't get enough behind it to make up for my deficiencies. I don't like how a gas gun handles past 20" except off bench. I really enjoy having a bolt gun in the same cal as my gas gun.

 

[Saf3sh00t3r]

That's my biggest issue wanting to switch over and try it out. Might just save up and get the seekins and keep my bolt gun too.

You should do this. I shoot both and the bolt is much more forgiving on mistakes like follow through. The gas gun will make your bolt shooting better. You also have to man handle that gas gun more.


The gas rifle has a lot more mass moving so everything has to be done perfectly in order to maintain accuracy on barricades and compromised positions. It is also much easier to dick something up while moving causing you a zero stage or match DQ. So you need to practice.

I’d keep both, many guys that have tried gas and gone back to bolt.

 

[DAVID1989]

Y'all make some good points. In going to keep my bolt gun and just save for the seekins. I do like how everyone is saying they'll make you a better shooter though since they'll exploit any flaws in your fundamentals.

 

[steve123]

It's just that accurate gas guns are more fun, in a way.

I wouldn't sacrifice one for the other, they are two different systems to be enjoyed for what they are, gotta have both and at least 3 dozen different types of guns to suit every situation.

 

[eklarsen]

I just built a custom 6.5 gasser using mostly JP parts, I added a PRS Gen 3 stock. I can tell you this thing is extremely accurate and the 6.5 is a great caliber for the platform if you get the right gear to mach the high pressure. tube length rifle +2, JP VMOS heavy carrier and JP SCS H2 with an adjustable gas block make short work of recoil and sight picture recovery.

 

[Fenix_Strategies]

So I'm thinking about switching to a gas gun for long range and local matches. Right now I'm running a custom 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun but I've been really wanting to switch over to a semi, particularly the seekins sp10 in 6.5. I know opinions vary but just want to give it a shot. Besides the obvious what's the biggest difference between running a bolt gun vs gas gun? I've heard where fundamentals can make or break you on the semi. Any other big differences or challenges to running the AR 10 accurately at long distance? Or am I just crazy for considering selling my custom to get into a gas gun? Also, any other rigs i should consider in the 2500 price point?
Thanks guys

So i might be of better help, whats your ideal max distance? I agree with most it is not that gas guns are not capable its generally has alot to do with the barrel selection on rigs.

 

[DAVID1989]

Max would be 1200 probably. The norm would be closer to 1000

 

[VegasHKShooter]

From a pure distance to accuracy ratio, gassers are certainly capable. I just got back from the range with two other buddies. I was shooting my A.I., and my GAP-10. The GAP is so nice and accurate that it makes 1000 seem like a cake walk. We were all shooting one another’s guns. My buddy, who had never once shot my GAP jumped behind it and made hits at 625, then went to 1000 and had a first round hit. It’s simple as get solid behind the gun, dial 7.9 Mils, send it....hit. They are absolutely accurate enough. The difference is in forgiveness in different positions. If PRS was just a matter of accuracy, I would be much better than I am. Lol. Truth is, it’s about getting hits in unusual positions, under time. If I could stay prone with my bi-pod and my back bag, my gun wouldn’t matter. Once you start shooting from dog house roofs, on roofs of cars, shooting on, through, under wire spool reels, etc. the bolt guns forgiveness becomes a factor.

I never meant to imply gassers weren’t accurate enough. Now days they can be more accurate than the shooter. It’s just that the shooter has to maintain that accuracy ability in positions other than ideal.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm getting to be comfortable with the AR-15 platform in a longer range configuration. My actual experience is with this rifle's predecessor, but I think the accuracy is still there. It works well with the 223/5/56 and I'd be comfortable competing with it at 600yd (I have), and shooting it in general maybe another 100-200yd further.

The 15 Varminter can be had a little more cheaply as the kit, but a receiver is also needed. If you're going with the kit, it's a good idea to keep it all Stag. The real value here is the Stag two-stage match trigger.

If you have an acceptable lower, there's little sense to getting another; I mean, how many rifles can you shoot at the same time, and also, Upper swaps are a thing of seconds. The Upper. Remember to include the add-ons for the BCG and standard op handle.

I'm not at all so sure about larger frame formats or chamberings. I just don't see them performing to similar standards at the true LR distances.

For that 'gotta make it' shot beyond 600yd, I'm breaking out the 260 Rem bolt gun.

Greg

 

[DAVID1989]

From a pure distance to accuracy ratio, gassers are certainly capable. I just got back from the range with two other buddies. I was shooting my A.I., and my GAP-10. The GAP is so nice and accurate that it makes 1000 seem like a cake walk. We were all shooting one another’s guns. My buddy, who had never once shot my GAP jumped behind it and made hits at 625, then went to 1000 and had a first round hit. It’s simple as get solid behind the gun, dial 7.9 Mils, send it....hit. They are absolutely accurate enough. The difference is in forgiveness in different positions. If PRS was just a matter of accuracy, I would be much better than I am. Lol. Truth is, it’s about getting hits in unusual positions, under time. If I could stay prone with my bi-pod and my back bag, my gun wouldn’t matter. Once you start shooting from dog house roofs, on roofs of cars, shooting on, through, under wire spool reels, etc. the bolt guns forgiveness becomes a factor.

I never meant to imply gassers weren’t accurate enough. Now days they can be more accurate than the shooter. It’s just that the shooter has to maintain that accuracy ability in positions other than ideal.

I get what you're saying. They're just harder to run accurately. I'm gonna just keep my bolt gun and save up for the seekins. But I definitely want to give the AR 10 platform a go and see what it's about. Either way another gun is never a bad thing lol

 

[DuneShoot]

It's just that accurate gas guns are more fun, in a way.

I wouldn't sacrifice one for the other, they are two different systems to be enjoyed for what they are, gotta have both and at least 3 dozen different types of guns to suit every situation.

I agree with this that an auto is more fun in a way.

I went with a factory Larue in .260 and it shoots very well!

You may look at their Ultimate Upper kits. Can get a complete large frame unassembled rifle for $1200ish in the caliber of your choice.

It is easy to screw up a group though!

 

[RampedRaptor]

If you reload gas guns can be frustrating in the brass department.

 

[Sogan]

If you reload gas guns can be frustrating in the brass department.

Just beats them up and they don’t lost near as long I take it?

 

[RampedRaptor]

Beats them up. There’s things to help aleveate it but if you are a higher tier reloader it may drive you bonkers. A brass catcher is mandatory.

You also have to bump the shoulders more and run more neck tension.

Just some things to point out.

I have a fat rat semi auto and load for it on the Dillon 650. It’s great for what it is but I would keep my bolt action for sure if I were you.

 

[DAVID1989]

Beats them up. There’s things to help aleveate it but if you are a higher tier reloader it may drive you bonkers. A brass catcher is mandatory.

You also have to bump the shoulders more and run more neck tension.

Just some things to point out.

I have a fat rat semi auto and load for it on the Dillon 650. It’s great for what it is but I would keep my bolt action for sure if I were you.

Yeah I've decided to just wait a while and save up for the seekins instead of selling the bolt gun to get one. I don't reload yet so that's not really an issue. I'd probably still run factory ammo in the AR though due to how tough it is on brass.

 

[Crews]

Good call, I wouldn't chose an AR as my only rifle for all the really good reasons mentioned above.

I recently had a set of twin girls, so had to cut the arsenal down to one really nice rifle and one really nice scope for a while. It's a bolt action rifle. But, I had a Larue 6.5 Grendel with an adjustable gas block, JP H2 SCS, and JP LMOS. It was ridiculously fun to shoot.

 

[DAVID1989]

Good call, I wouldn't chose an AR as my only rifle for all the really good reasons mentioned above.

I recently had a set of twin girls, so had to cut the arsenal down to one really nice rifle and one really nice scope for a while. It's a bolt action rifle. But, I had a Larue 6.5 Grendel with an adjustable gas block, JP H2 SCS, and JP LMOS. It was ridiculously fun to shoot.

Pretty much in the same position myself. First kid was born almost a month ago so having to actually save up instead of just spending the money. Definitely going to get one though.

 

[SRPowah]

I built my AR because as stated: accurate gas guns are just fun for some reason. It is so satisfying to be consistently sub-moa while shooting with friends/coworkers/average joe hunters who are barely getting 1.5 moa groups out of his Remington 700 hunting rifle. "But those are minute of man" and "I am just having a bad day" ensues. lol

I am no where near as consistent with it as I am with my bolt guns, but that means I need more trigger time. The guy who got me into target shooting built an AR10 and just couldn't run it to his standards and moved back to bolt guns. He was used to heavy bench rifles with 1 very small recoil impulse, and wasn't quite used to the "long" drawn out process of a semi. Master it just to feel good about yourself.

 

[DAVID1989]

I built my AR because as stated: accurate gas guns are just fun for some reason. It is so satisfying to be consistently sub-moa while shooting with friends/coworkers/average joe hunters who are barely getting 1.5 moa groups out of his Remington 700 hunting rifle. "But those are minute of man" and "I am just having a bad day" ensues. lol

I am no where near as consistent with it as I am with my bolt guns, but that means I need more trigger time. The guy who got me into target shooting built an AR10 and just couldn't run it to his standards and moved back to bolt guns. He was used to heavy bench rifles with 1 very small recoil impulse, and wasn't quite used to the "long" drawn out process of a semi. Master it just to feel good about yourself.

Yeah thats the main reason I'm waiting. Everyone says they're less forgiving. I'll bring it back up when I get one and compare it first hand.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

RRaptor; I reload 223 for the AR, five Uppers on two Lowers so far. They are 16" and 24' with pretty good quality barrels. I use factory Uppers (except one), and I try to steer clear of max/over max charges. My loads range from 50gr to 75gr, and I'm not seeing any real brass damage at all.

I think the factory Uppers have a better grasp on controlling the gas pressure curves and so protect the brass from extraction extremes. I also think the more moderate pressures reduce dings and allow the primer pockets a more even go at survival.

Anyway, I'm just suggesting that beat up brass doesn't need to be a normal thing with AR's.

Greg

 

[RTH1800]

Going from bolt to AR10 type is a big jump. The AR15 platform is less prone to all the issues that AR's are plagued with. A good many shooters can handle the AR15 at longish range with proficiency but stumble moving to the AR 10. It has more mass in the moving parts, magnifying the issues of recoil management. You can easily try or buy an accurate AR 15 and see how you like it. If you make a decent purchase deal you should be able to re sell at near your cost. The AR10's seem to not sell as quickly and often folks lose money on them.

If and when you get an AR10 or AR15 the best advice I can give is get a good barrel, good trigger, adjustable gas block and JP captured recoil buffer. Smoothing up that recoil impulse is key to consistency.

 

[TimK]

Been thinking the same thoughts myself. I have a buddy who shoots a JP .260 in big matches. I see it as a distinct advantage in some stages where manipulating the bolt is awkward or doing so causes you to have to come off the gun when you'd rather not.

I shoot a little local match here. We run two identical matches the same day. I regularly shoot two guns, one a high dollar bolt gun in 6 Dasher, the other a JP in .223. It's a nice mix of prone and positional shooting with relatively generous time constraints. I consistently score about 10% higher with the bolt gun. All of that may be attributed to the better wind performance of the Dasher (wind is exactly half of the .223), but I don't think so. I can't quite put my finger on why the bolt gun is easier to shoot, but it is.

I still want to try a large frame gasser. At this moment, I'm stuck trying to figure out which cartridge I'd like to try. Well, and there's the $3,500 price tag to consider, too...

 

[DuneShoot]

Between the Larue 260 and a JP-15 I can shoot tighter groups at 100 with the 260 however the JP is not far behind.
Both shoot amazingly well.

 

[Subwrx300]

My experience matches the others who've posted: my bolt gun is fairly easy to keep .4-.6moa without much "effort". However, my 6.5CM gasser will be .5-.6 one day when everything feels right (NPA, position, cheekweld, trigger pressure, etc) and then will be .8-1MOA the next day. Might be vertical flyers one day and horizontal another or a mix. But 90% of the time, it's me not doing something the same.

Basically, a gasser will constantly test your skills and force better fundamentals or your consistency will suffer...along with the ego. ?.

I've left the range on a number of days thinking my reloads were bad or some other excuse for less than stellar shooting but, invariably, I go back out and focus on better grip, NPA, body position, follow through and BOOM! Right back to the type of groups I expect.

Makes me a much better bolt gun shooter.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When the AR first came out and we got to look at the way the bolt and extension locked together, my Eldest Brother suggested that the AR should really have an even better accuracy potential than the contemporary bolt guns.

Nowadays, bolt guns have improved quite bit o/o the box, and an AR configured for precision with a decent, long barrel is among my own most accurate rifles.

Combine that with the way the AR lends itself to operation under challenging conditions, as stated above, and I think that a decently configured and assembled factory AR can be as good, at least, as a good bolt gun when it comes to precision. I have 2 Stag Model 6 Super Varminters, and my buddy built an inexpensive attempt at duplicating mine using a $129 AR Stoner 24" 1:8" stainless heavy barrel. They all shoot very nicely.

I've shot in serious competition with mine at 600yd, and would be pretty comfortable depending on one off at bipod out to 800yd, maybe longer at altitude, as long as I had a fairly good handle on the range data. At my 4200ft altitude, a 75gr HPBT Match is supersonic at 1000yd (on paper).

Unless you're really reaching for the long berms, a 20" should be both manageable and effective.

So I'd say, have no reservations, dive right in. Stag is right now running a tax refund sale on complete rifles. FYI, my experience is limited to AR-15 rifles.

Otherwise, for a nice 22" AR 10 6.5CM, Lookee here. Yes, that's right, you save $600 at this particular moment. They also make one in 24".

Don't blink, don't flinch, seek and ye can find.

Greg

 

[Cajuntransplant]

OP -

For all the reasons listed as to the why and how a gasser is more unforgiving and harder to shoot as accurate at distances and position is the reason I am getting all the components together to assemble one myself. Kind of same situation as you I think with wondering if I can do the same with a gas gun setup that I can do with a bolt gun. My two main rifles that come out to play all the time are a Bergara HMR 6.5cm and a AR15 in 6.5 Grendel. The bolt gun is far easier to shoot accurately but I want more challenge so I’ve been playing a lot more with my Grendel and plan using it in some matches this summer. I will say that while the AR15 and Grendel is very accurate and can be shot at some good distances quite easily, it requires a lot more effort and practice and focus than the bolt gun. But I’m gathering all the parts and pieces to assemble an AR10 rifle in 6.5cm and will see how it comes together and what I can get done with it. I’m always learning more and more in the long range rifle game and with it generally being “harder” to shoot further and requiring a lot more focus to be just as consistent at distances past 600 yards in a gasser, that is what kind of has me drawn to assembling one.

 

[Niles Coyote]

2016 I decided to try something different and put down my custom bolt rifle and dove headfirst into the large frame AR-Creedmoor for PR matches. I competed in around 7 matches. All but one were matches that went out to 600, the exception was a Guardian match that went to 1k.

What I found was that you can be very competitive against bolt rifles. The AR is much more difficult to shoot well from awkward positions and to combat this you will need to practice more to maintain your hit percentage/scores. Reloading for it is different in that rather than going with the highest BC bullet launched as fast as possible that groups well in your bolt rifle, you need to tune the load specifically to the platform you're shooting it out of and often that's quite a bit slower than your use to. One trick I did find on keeping my groups tight from one reload to the next was to anneal every cycle with my brass. That allowed my bullet slip inside the neck to be consistent and tightened groups considerably.

I know I missed out on a few trophies because of using the AR over a bolt, but it was a lot of fun. Now I reserve using the AR for matches that I know to have targets that are a little more forgiving in size. Once you get down to targets 1.5 moa and smaller beyond 500 yards it can be quite a frustrating experience. My favorite trophy is a third place win at the Michigan Guardian were I droped two or three points under Bryan Litz second place finish. In fairness it was his first "Tactical Match" but it was a big morale boost to the effectiveness of an AR against stiff bolt rifle competition.

 

[DAVID1989]

2016 I decided to try something different and put down my custom bolt rifle and dove headfirst into the large frame AR-Creedmoor for PR matches. I competed in around 7 matches. All but one were matches that went out to 600, the exception was a Guardian match that went to 1k.

What I found was that you can be very competitive against bolt rifles. The AR is much more difficult to shoot well from awkward positions and to combat this you will need to practice more to maintain your hit percentage/scores. Reloading for it is different in that rather than going with the highest BC bullet launched as fast as possible that groups well in your bolt rifle, you need to tune the load specifically to the platform you're shooting it out of and often that's quite a bit slower than your use to. One trick I did find on keeping my groups tight from one reload to the next was to anneal every cycle with my brass. That allowed my bullet slip inside the neck to be consistent and tightened groups considerably.

I know I missed out on a few trophies because of using the AR over a bolt, but it was a lot of fun. Now I reserve using the AR for matches that I know to have targets that are a little more forgiving in size. Once you get down to targets 1.5 moa and smaller beyond 500 yards it can be quite a frustrating experience. My favorite trophy is a third place win at the Michigan Guardian were I droped two or three points under Bryan Litz second place finish. In fairness it was his first "Tactical Match" but it was a big morale boost to the effectiveness of an AR against stiff bolt rifle competition.

I'd be pretty happy with placing right under him as well lol! I like the fact that the gas guns keep you honest and force you to stick to the fundamentals. Before this thread I never thought about them making you better with a bolt rifle but it makes sense to me. My wife also wants to get into long range stuff but bolt guns don't really appeal to her. So figure she could try it out as well. Have to get through a cross country move next month then it's game on for the sp10. As far as the ammo deal, I don't reload yet. Run Hornady 140eldm in my bolt rifle. I'll probably try that or prime 130gr. Still trying to decide if I'll even want to handload for a gas gun due to everyone saying it's so hard on brass. But I've also heard the seekins is a little better on it. Guess I'll have to decide that later on.