Thinking about upgrading to a Zermatt Arms TL3

[7magsavage]

So Im thinking of upgrading to a Zermatt Arms TL3. I just wanted your guys' opinions as to what your thoughts are on them. Where do you guys get your barrels? Are you guys that have them happy with the setup and the barrel changes? I have shot nothing but Remington 700 and Savage for 12 years and from what Im seeing I could upgrade actions and basically change barrels myself for about what it would cost for me to buy a blank and have my GS chamber and install a new barrel.
Anything Im missing? Anything to pay attention to and be aware of? Those actions are a chunk of change and I would like to hear what you guys think.
Thank you all in advance.
Steve

 

[rockn30809]

I like mine and would buy another. I got a Proof prefit from a vendor on here and installed it myself. Install is easy if your mechanically inclined. Lots of vendor choices for prefits on here.

 

[A.Huggy]

I've had a TL3 for two years now and I love it.

Prefit barrels are nice. I bought an extra bolt face assembly and fire control group to keep with me at matches. I have never needed it but I like that spare parts are readily available and can be swapped in seconds.

I recently learned how to chamber barrels and I really appreciate how open and honest Zermatt has been about providing a tenon print, and answering the questions I had the first time I was setting up to chamber for my action.

The only negative thing I can say is that my action will not reliably ignite CCI BR-4 primers. If you search around this forum there are a few threads discussing this issue. There are fixes for this but I won't get into that here, it's not a big deal to me since I use Federal 205's.

 

[wpeach1912]

Only negative is you’ll realize how nice a custom action is and it’ll make all your other guns feel subpar

 

[RFutch]

Only negative is you’ll realize how nice a custom action is and it’ll make all your other guns feel subpar

This. After the first Precision Rifle Expo I came home and sold all my factory bolt guns. Now I have 3 customs, 2 of which are Zermatt Origins.

 

[padom]

The only negative thing I can say is that my action will not reliably ignite CCI BR-4 primers. If you search around this forum there are a few threads discussing this issue. There are fixes for this but I won't get into that here, it's not a big deal to me since I use Federal 205's.

Thats weird, I have 6 TL3's and I've never had an issue with BR4's.... just shot some 2 days ago.

 

[Thorbeast]

I like my TL3 and would happily buy another (I'd probably buy an origin, to be honest). Feeding and ejection is great. Bolt lift is good, plenty of options for rails/tangs/mag cut. If you don't need AW magazines, get an origin. It's just as good as the TL3, but with less customization to minimize cost. I bought my TL3 in 2016, before the Origin was released. I do use AW magazines, but if I were starting over, I'd go with AICS mags, the AICS mags have evolved a bit since 2016 (MDT factory 12 round mags). Zermatt customer service is great. My advice would be to buy one directly from zermatt and ship them your trigger, they will time it for you. Also, front range precision has great deals on proof research shouldered pre-fits. I do have a barrel utilizing a barrel nut (that I turned into a shouldered barrel via red loctite on the barrel nut), but shouldered pre-fits are just easier to setup, and there is no need to buy go and no go gauges, minimizing the cost between the two.

You mention installing/switching barrels, if you are looking to switch barrels often, you might want to look into the terminus zeus, that action is probably better for switching barrels frequently. Not that you can't do it with a TL3 or Origin, but the TL3 is going to require more tools. Some people do the TL3 swaps without tools and are confident in the results, but I'm not there yet. Also, almost every custom action can utilize shouldered pre-fits, so the barrel install process is actually the same for other actions as it is for the TL3/origin (just in case you didn't know). The other popular custom actions (Impact, Lone Peak, ect.) offer user serviceable barrels, that's not specific to Zermatt anymore. When they were released that was a big selling point, but most actions today can do that.

I believe @padom swaps barrels without tools, maybe he can speak to that.

 

[7magsavage]

I REALLY appreciate the replies guys.

So I’m looking on their website to try and decide the differences between the TL3 and the Origin.
Looks like the biggest differences is the TL3 has an integrated rail and recoil lug as well as the option for their DLC coating.

Would these differences make it worth it to you for the extra cash to get the TL3?

What do you think of the DLC coating?

 

[padom]

I REALLY appreciate the replies guys.

So I’m looking on their website to try and decide the differences between the TL3 and the Origin.
Looks like the biggest differences is the TL3 has an integrated rail and recoil lug as well as the option for their DLC coating.

Would these differences make it worth it to you for the extra cash to get the TL3?

What do you think of the DLC coating?

Listen...the origin is the best value action for your money out there if you ask me....it replaced the Rem700 truing route...

I had an Origin for a while....built my sons 2nd 223rem bolt gun off of it.. I brought it out often because a fee guys on the Hide asked me to bring it along with a TL3....they wanted to feel the difference... I since sold it and replaced it with another TL3...

The biggest single difference myself and everyone that played with it side by side a TL3....?? Bolt lift....the Origin has a noticeably heavier bolt lift than a TL3. Its a great action, I like the TL3 better...its a little smoother and the bolt isn't as heavy...

TL3 yes has integral lug vs pinned recoil lug on Origin....both have a removable scope base....its not integral on TL3.. I believe yes the Origin is nitrided vs DLC on TL3.

I was an early adopter of TL3 before Zermatt was do8ng there actions.. my first 2 TL3's are some of the first batches made came in SS.... 1 of them was immediately sent out for DLC coating by PVA to a well known DLC company....the bolt heads and bolts came NP3 coated back then... I still have 1 in SS...DLC is my favorite, one of the best treatments out there....slick as hell and just gets better as it wears.....requires virtually no oil on the bolt....I know guys run it dry in the Midwest and west due to the fine powder like dirt and have zero issues or stoppages...

 

[Rob01]

I have a couple of TL3s and really like them. One is set up as a .223 now and I really like being able to swap out the bolt heads and change calibers easy. You can do that with an Origin also. I got my first TL3 after playing with a friend's rifle and liking it. I sold some stuff and bought one. I got my second only because I already had shouldered prefit barrels spun for the first and so I can swap them over. The Origin has a different headspace than the short action TL3 or I would have given one a try. If you wanted to save a few hundred bucks then get a Origin but if money isn't a problem then grab a TL3 and you will be happy also. Really can't go wrong with either.

 

[A.Huggy]

Thats weird, I have 6 TL3's and I've never had an issue with BR4's.... just shot some 2 days ago.

Here's a couple threads discussing the issue:

Gunsmithing - Bighorn TL3 question

Im going to ask this here under Gunsmithing but may be a Reloading question but since most of us roll our own Im sure you may be able to help. I just received my first TL3 and began the build yesterday. Installed a CBI barrel and did the same process as always before, I have several Remage and...

www.snipershide.com

Bighorn tl3 and Calvin elite light primer strikes?

Anybody having light primer strikes with Calvin elite? Already sent bolt back to bighorn once. Ditch Calvin and order new trigger? Thanks for advice.

www.snipershide.com

Triggertech Diamond Malfunction

Normal course of fire, noticed what appeared to be failure to fire. Recocked the bolt and fired. Did this a few times between successful firings. I pulled the bolt and took it apart nothing seemed out of order. Tried to reinsert the bolt and realized the sear was now snapped in half. Has...

www.snipershide.com

MyBighorn isnt setting off CCI450's

I will of course make a phone call Tuesday morning but until then I was wondering if anyone else has had trouble with weak firing pin strike with their TL3 actions? Out of the last 15 primers I have had 5 fail. Perhaps I have some old primers? I will say however a second wack has set a couple...

www.snipershide.com

Some people get a new fire control assembly from Bighorn, some people swap triggers, some people swap primers, and some people send their stuff to bighorn and let them figure it out. I don't think it's a deal breaker but I figured I would mention it because I have first hand experience.

 

[padom]

Here's a couple threads discussing the issue:

Gunsmithing - Bighorn TL3 question

Im going to ask this here under Gunsmithing but may be a Reloading question but since most of us roll our own Im sure you may be able to help. I just received my first TL3 and began the build yesterday. Installed a CBI barrel and did the same process as always before, I have several Remage and...

www.snipershide.com

Bighorn tl3 and Calvin elite light primer strikes?

Anybody having light primer strikes with Calvin elite? Already sent bolt back to bighorn once. Ditch Calvin and order new trigger? Thanks for advice.

www.snipershide.com

Triggertech Diamond Malfunction

Normal course of fire, noticed what appeared to be failure to fire. Recocked the bolt and fired. Did this a few times between successful firings. I pulled the bolt and took it apart nothing seemed out of order. Tried to reinsert the bolt and realized the sear was now snapped in half. Has...

www.snipershide.com

MyBighorn isnt setting off CCI450's

I will of course make a phone call Tuesday morning but until then I was wondering if anyone else has had trouble with weak firing pin strike with their TL3 actions? Out of the last 15 primers I have had 5 fail. Perhaps I have some old primers? I will say however a second wack has set a couple...

www.snipershide.com

Some people get a new fire control assembly from Bighorn, some people swap triggers, some people swap primers, and some people send their stuff to bighorn and let them figure it out. I don't think it's a deal breaker but I figured I would mention it because I have first hand experience.

People posting they have problems doesnt do much for me. So many variables these days. They have never been a problem in my rifle... I have all BnA Tacsport Pro 2 Stages with the bighorn/Zermatt correct low sear and before that I ran Jewell many years ago. To date, Ive never had a single BR4 or any primer issue for that matter on my 6 TL3's.... So take that for what its worth. Just flat out saying TL3 have issues with BR4 is a bit misleading if you ask me...

 

[padom]

I have a couple of TL3s and really like them. One is set up as a .223 now and I really like being able to swap out the bolt heads and change calibers easy. You can do that with an Origin also. I got my first TL3 after playing with a friend's rifle and liking it. I sold some stuff and bought one. I got my second only because I already had shouldered prefit barrels spun for the first and so I can swap them over. The Origin has a different headspace than the short action TL3 or I would have given one a try. If you wanted to save a few hundred bucks then get a Origin but if money isn't a problem then grab a TL3 and you will be happy also. Really can't go wrong with either.

This is exactly why I ended up selling the 1 Origin I bought and built out for my son in 223rem, my Curtis Axiom, couple fully custom and worked 700's and a Stiller TAC30... to standardize. I replaced everything with TL3's so that all 6 actions can utilize the pile of TL3 barrels on the shelf I have in all kinds of calibers.... I have multiple 223rem and 308 bolt heads... I have a 224V bolt head.. I have 2 spare complete bolts with firing pins/assembly and bolt heads on stand by for any issues or a quick caliber switch.

I do not do tool less barrel changes. All my barrel changes consist of putting the BA in a SAC Modular Barrel Vise, removing the action with a Zermatt action wrench and re-installing the new barrel with grease on the tenon threads and torqued to 75lbs every single time.... The only thing I torque to a different setting is my RimX barrels which I torque to 50lb every time....

 

[7magsavage]

Thank you guys. All very appreciated advice.

Padom, do you also check headspace with gauges as well (I would assume yes).

 

[Rob01]

Not Padom but no. I get my shouldered prefits from smiths I trust and screw on and go.

 

[padom]

Not Padom but no. I get my shouldered prefits from smiths I trust and screw on and go.

THIS..... I also get my shouldered prefits from smiths that have done lots of barrels for me... If youre doing a nut barrel, then absolutely yes.

 

[b6graham]

i went origin to tl3 then back to origins once i got a RimX. I prefer the matching swept bolt handles and dont really notice a 'heavier' bolt lift with a BnA trigger

I run Origin and TL3 barrels without problem with a HLR lug

 

[Shoots 700's]

I have (3) TL3’s and they have all worked flawlessly.

 

[Shoots 700's]

I have 1 that has a barrel fitted and 2 that use prefits, all shoot tiny groups.

 

[Boomdog]

TL3s and Proof prefits. Both carbon and steel work great. Get actions and barrels from Front Range Precision, a sponsor here for a great price!

 

[A.Huggy]

People posting they have problems doesnt do much for me. So many variables these days. They have never been a problem in my rifle... I have all BnA Tacsport Pro 2 Stages with the bighorn/Zermatt correct low sear and before that I ran Jewell many years ago. To date, Ive never had a single BR4 or any primer issue for that matter on my 6 TL3's.... So take that for what its worth. Just flat out saying TL3 have issues with BR4 is a bit misleading if you ask me...

Sorry padom, I didn't mean to imply that all TL3's struggle with BR4's or 450's. I only meant to say that mine does; and because my experience is not unique, it's something worth watching out for.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Sorry padom, I didn't mean to imply that all TL3's struggle with BR4's or 450's. I only meant to say that mine does; and because my experience is not unique, it's something worth watching out for.

Not to argue with you, but this is the first i have heard about issues with br4 and 450’

 

[CK1.0]

I went with an Origin, mainly because I figured out that I prefer a swept bolt, but I'd have been just as happy with a TL3. I'm on my second Proof prefit barrel with it, ~2500rds on it, and I like it more now than when I got it. Mine is one of the newer SS ones, it came timed perfectly with a TT Diamond.

So far the Proof prefits have been awesome, but, I wouldn't hesitate to run a TL3 barrel with an HLR lug, or a Savage prefit with a nut, if that's all I could find in a given cartridge/caliber that I wanted to spin on.

 

[7magsavage]

You guys have been a ton of help. I believe I will go the TL3 route. Sounds pretty fireproof.

 

[kthomas]

I also have a couple of TL3's and an Origin. I like them both. To answer your question, nope. You're not missing anything. Buy TL3, screw on a prefit. Find a way to torque it. Barrel vise, wrench flats, whatever.

I use trigger techs with my TL3's. It's impossible for Zermatt to know what shape and height all the different sears are on custom trigger manufacturers. So the actions (like most actions) benefit from "timing" the cocking piece so their isn't such hard cocking of the firing pin. I've timed all my own actions. It's extremely simple.

The only primers I've had issues setting off have been M118LR in a 308W barrel and CCI450s when fireforming Dasher brass by jamming bullets in the lands. But those are headspace issues, not actual primer related. That's what Padom is referring to by the posts of people trying to figure out their problems.

They are great actions and I much prefer the DLC. Use a lot of grease in the beginning on the bolt and after a couple of hundred rounds all the bearing surfaces will wear in and it will be a silky smoof action.

Zermatt will also time your action to your trigger for a very reasonable fee. May even be free if you get them to do it before they ship out the action.

 

[Gtscotty]

When I asked Zermatt about having my Origin timed for my TT Diamond (before putting everything together), they said that the Origins are timed to run right with TT triggers. That's certainly been the case with mine, don't know if that applies to TL3 or not but TT might be the trigger easy button.

 

[CK1.0]

What is also cool with the TL3/Origin's: for the last year or so I've been using the "Deep Creek Method" to find the lands on my barrels. Because the TL3/Origin uses a simple mechanical ejector in the receiver instead of on the bolt, all you have to do is pull the firing pin assembly with a turn of the wrist and you can get on with it, that's it:




It makes it easy to keep an eye on your throat erosion/seating depth, you can check it every time you clean it if you want, no sweat.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I have three TL-2's and love them. All DLC'd and it's a great finish. I don't have TL-3's, but I'm sure the quality and consistency is the same or better than my TL-2's.

I chamber my own barrels (.223, 6 x47L, .308W) and I can move barrels from one action to the other and there is zero difference in headspace. That's how consistent Zermatt's tolerances are.

I've been using Bartlein, either direct from them, or from Bugholes. I like Bugholes because they are more likely to have stock in what I am looking for. They make large buys from Bartlein and try have have as many barrels in stock as possible.

All three TL-2's have Jewell triggers on them. Never a problem with timing or light primer strikes.

 

[Junco Grande]

You can't go wrong with the TL3 or Origin. Barrel swaps with Proof prefits is almost kindergarten easy and the bolt head is probably easier. Action wrenches were hard to find for a while, but FRP has a few left I think. Also, the HLR lug on the Origin for running a TL3 prefit has been right on for me.

 

[Tbaxl]

So Im thinking of upgrading to a Zermatt Arms TL3. I just wanted your guys' opinions as to what your thoughts are on them. Where do you guys get your barrels? Are you guys that have them happy with the setup and the barrel changes? I have shot nothing but Remington 700 and Savage for 12 years and from what Im seeing I could upgrade actions and basically change barrels myself for about what it would cost for me to buy a blank and have my GS chamber and install a new barrel.
Anything Im missing? Anything to pay attention to and be aware of? Those actions are a chunk of change and I would like to hear what you guys think.
Thank you all in advance.
Steve

I have had multiple origins and TL3’s now. I have thoroughly enjoyed both. I can’t find enough differences between the 2 to not just buy a origin.

 

[acudaowner]

my plans are to buy another one for 7 saum like the one I am using for 6.5 creed I love the one I have and have had zero problems with it going on two barrels used the action is still running like a champ .

 

[padom]

My biggest reason to buy a TL3 is the integral lug allows me to swap barrels with a perfect return to zero. If you are going to be swapping barrels a lot you don't want the origin.

This 1000%...I probably have 20-25 TL3 barrels in various calibers, smith's, lengths and chambers on the shelf....no way I would want to be dicking around with a recoil lug, pinned or not....its so easy to screw off, and torque back on to 75lb and be dead on like nothing changed....this is why I standardized my entire setup to TL3's

 

[7magsavage]

How would I know if the trigger is not timed correctly? Never ran into that issue before.

 

[7magsavage]

I gotcha. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Army of One]

To the folks that are swapping barrels on a regular basis in minutes, what barrel vise are you using?

 

[kthomas]

To the folks that are swapping barrels on a regular basis in minutes, what barrel vise are you using?

Viper barrel vice with some hockey tape for extra grip.

 

[Gtscotty]

To the folks that are swapping barrels on a regular basis in minutes, what barrel vise are you using?

This'un, with an empty toilet paper roll cut to size between the barrel and vise:

Precision CNC Machined Barrel Vise - Grizzly Industrial

This vise was designed by a member of the U.S. Shooting Team for quickly changing barrels up to 1-1/2" diameter. Made of T-6061 Aluminum, the top clamping part of this barrel vise is spring loaded and allows you to hold the gun with one hand while tightening the two large nuts with the other...

www.grizzly.com

 

[padom]

Modular Barrel Vise – Full Kit

Includes: Modular Barrel Vise, ARCA mounting base, 5 bushings (.865”-.870”, .925”-.930”, 1.000”, 1.200”, 1.250”), and a bushing stand Note: The Vise, Bushings, and ARCA Mounting base may have marks or discolorations from the machining and/or annodizing processes. This is normal, and by no...

shortactioncustoms.com

This with a piece of paper drywall tape wrapped around barrel every time I clamp it in....roll is just hanging above my bench...tear off a piece each time I do a barrel change....for $5, 1 roll will last most people a lifetime...

 

[Thorbeast]

I just take my barrel off. With wrench flats and a crescent wrench It takes about 34 seconds. Maybe less

No torque wrench?

 

[Threadcutter308]

This 1000%...I probably have 20-25 TL3 barrels in various calibers, smith's, lengths and chambers on the shelf....no way I would want to be dicking around with a recoil lug, pinned or not....its so easy to screw off, and torque back on to 75lb and be dead on like nothing changed....this is why I standardized my entire setup to TL3's

In this day and age, it is beyond me as to why any Action manufacturer would NOT build the lug into the Action.

I think I had at least three different lug alignment tools that I finally threw out. I have no plans of ever "accurizing" another 700 action, due to the availability of so many great aftermarket actions (that have integral recoil lugs).

 

[b6graham]

In this day and age, it is beyond me as to why any Action manufacturer would NOT build the lug into the Action.

I think I had at least three different lug alignment tools that I finally threw out. I have no plans of ever "accurizing" another 700 action, due to the availability of so many great aftermarket actions (that have integral recoil lugs).

cause i can get an Origin for $400 less than a TL3 and it just so happens i prefer the swept bolt handle anyways. win-win

 

[Threadcutter308]

cause i can get an Origin for $400 less than a TL3 and it just so happens i prefer the swept bolt handle anyways. win-win

Absolutely ! You should always get what it is that YOU want.

Me ? I want to pull an Action out of a box and have complete confidence that it's built right, to spec and that I don't have to dick with cleaning it up dimensionally before I chamber the barrel for it. I'll pay "extra" for that. (I'm really not paying extra, when you consider time and tooling costs associated with truing an Action).

Anything/everything Zermatt builds is absolutely top drawer.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Viper vise and 2 old pieces of leather

 

[Zermatt Arms]

Nope. I used to buy learned it doesn't matter. After doing this for 4 years I've learned you can estimate what applying 40ftlbs of torque feels like. Maybe it's 43, or 49, but again... you'll never see it in your groups or POI. I would say a large grown man could apply about 40 - 50 with max strength.

The biggest subjectivity in torque (in my opinion) is the level of calibration in each torque wrench. How many people's at home torque wrenches go through a regimented calibration schedule? How many are properly stored after use?

It might be the most over thought factor in at home rifle assembly - Ray

 

[Hagen]

I don't torque my lug nuts on my truck and don't torque my barrels. Just crank it down.

 

[308plinker]

I'm a huge fan of the TL3. I use the viper vise straight up, no leather. Never scratched a polished/blasted/ or cerakote bbl. If you get one, buy a good synthetic hi-temp grease for your tenon. I'm liberal with it and torque to 75ft lbs. I've had no issues.
My only issue is hand fitting seating depth with the firing pin removed. Loss of tension there will let the cross pin that holds the bolt head to the bolt body fall out. If you use a Hornady oal gauge then it's a non issue. I personally have never gotten consistent results getting a base line oal touching using the hand held gauge. I use the bullet bump and hand feed till bolt closure method. I'm sure there are other ways, it's just the way I feel comfortable with. So I use a small piece of thin clear tape to keep the pin in place.
If others have experienced this I'd love to know a better way!
The TL3 is a fantastic feature packed action. Love the controlled round feed, it lets me drop the brass right into my palm, or sling it if I'm running it hard n fast. It's exactly what I expect from a $1300 plus action. The ability to buy prefits and swap in 15 minutes can't be overstated. The days of shipping my shot out BA to my smith and waiting what seems like forever are gone. I would pay more for that alone....

 

[7magsavage]

Ok so I believe I’m sold on the TL3. I’m going to want to buy a 223 rem/223AI as well as a 6.5x67L.
Where would you guys recommend buying the barrels from?
Thanks again for all of the help.
Steve

 

[Threadcutter308]

Ok so I believe I’m sold on the TL3. I’m going to want to buy a 223 rem/223AI as well as a 6.5x67L.
Where would you guys recommend buying the barrels from?
Thanks again for all of the help.
Steve

Bartlein, Krieger, Hawk Hill, Custom Rifle Barrels, Brux, Muller, MullerWorks, Shilen, Bartlein Carbon Fiber custom rifle barrels for sale

Southern Precision Rifles. We build exceptional rifles and prefit barrels for most of the actions on the market. Our rifles and prefit barrels will help you reach your hunting, target, competition and ELR goals. We use only the finest tooling and machines. We continue to improve and excel.

www.bugholes.com

 

[Rob01]

Ok so I believe I’m sold on the TL3. I’m going to want to buy a 223 rem/223AI as well as a 6.5x67L.
Where would you guys recommend buying the barrels from?
Thanks again for all of the help.
Steve

PVA @bohem

 

[Mike 556]

Shop All - Page 1 - Front Range Precision LLC

frontrangeprecisionllc.com

Owen is great to deal with.Very helpful and accommodating.