Thoughts On a Training Tool For Kids

[jphil108]

My boys are both still too young to shoot but I’m wanting to build or buy a rifle for them to learn with, ive been kicking around the thought of a .300 blackout in a Ruger American or maybe an R700 short action with a barrel nut setup so I could re-barrel And re-equip as they grow. My feeling is that I can teach them a lot about wind estimation with a round that has a trajectory similar to the saint Louis arch and it is a pretty cheap round for them to learn on with near infinite barrel life, low recoil and low sound pressure To avoid developing a flinch. Does this make sense over reduced loads for a .308 I already own?

It seems like i would get a lower ES and SD with the smaller case volume of the Blackout vs. the larger case volume of a . 308 with a lower pressure powder like trail boss. So theoretically the blackout has an edge for accuracy from light training rounds.

i’ve also given thought to 6.5 grendel and 6.8 SPC or maybe even 6 ARC which would all be slightly more useful rounds overall, but it doesn’t seem as fun or educational for my kids due to the flatter trajectory and cost of components. I don’t really want to buy them a laser that makes it easy.Ill add that I already have an AR upper in .300 blackout. Anybody done something similar?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Youngsters physically outgrow dedicated youth/children's guns far too quickly, and centerfire is really sorta overkill in such applications. This is really very well traveled ground.

The obvious choice is 22LR chambering. It's hard to justify more. There are no chamberings better suited to the task; it's inherently accurate, and larger ones bring on issues of danger distances that really aren't appropriate to the task. For instance, it's nearly impossible to find an indoor range that allows centerfire rifle cartridges.

I like the Savage Rascal series.

Wind skills come later, but even as such, the trajectory on a 22 Short is definitely loopy enough; and allows wind skills to be acquired at very conveniently short distances. It works.

I ran NRA Youth Marksmanship Programs for years, and also had the pleasure of training my own Grandchildren.

Keep it as simple as you can, and leave the rest for later.

Greg

 

[jphil108]

I agreee 100% with starting with a serviceable .22, my plan is to start them with a pcp air rifle in the back yard with a good back stop and not start them on rim fires until I can gauge their responsibility with the task at hand. I will consider a rascal over using my granddads Winchester 67 that I learned on. I’m probably overthinking future events, but I want them to have a good transition into centerfire rifles, when my uncle taught me I went straight from a .22 to a 1903. I learned to deal with the recoil pretty well but I had a flinch for a while and it took a lot of dry firing to get that to go away. I appreciate the input! How are the sights and trigger on the rascal? If they enjoy shooting, I would ultimately like to buy each of my kids a bolt action .22, a 20 gauge 870, and a Tikka .308 spread out over several birthdays.

 

[NewsShooter]

6.5 over .308, factory rounds are accurate, lots of choices of ammo, less recall than the 308. Shooting my 6.5 for the first time, prone with with a brake on a 15lb rifle, my 10 year old nephew was knocking down steel rams at 550 yards and watching them fall in the scope. He was 10 years old, before that day he'd shot a .22 twice. I built them 10/22's, we shoot from 50 some of the time to 225 most of the time.

 

[Southern Custom]

Another vote for .22. If you want to go bigger then a .223. My 13 year old started shooting centerfire at 10. Up till then he had plenty of time on a .22. We worked up slowly with recoil. He now shoots a .243 and a 6mm creed. I truly believe it’s all the time we put in with .22 and .223 and the 410 shotgun that made him into a good shooter with no flinch and who is not recoil shy.
The surest way to turn a kid off to shooting is to hand them a gun with too much recoil so your right on that thought. But I would add that you only give them the gun and teach them good fundamentals and let them decide how far they want to take it. Giving them too much info too soon to try and turn them into the next long range wonder could also have the same effect as heavy recoil.

 

[z7.jled]

22lr, I like the ruger Precision rimfire for kids to teach accuracy and a BB gun to teach alternate positions - small kids just are not strong enough to shoot an actual firearm offhand very well

the RPRimfire is adjustable enough to fit pretty small kids,

the next step up for my kids will be an AR15 DMR type with 5 rd mags for shooting farther with a 223. It’s cheap, and fairly easy to get to shoot pretty accurate

fitting a kid is the hardest thing,

 

[Steel head]

22 or 223

 

[Rocketmandb]

Get a 22 R700 clone and convince your wife that the expense is justified

 

[Steel head]

Get a 22 R700 clone and convince your wife that the expense is justified

 

[Rocketmandb]

 

[E. Bryant]

Once the kids are ready to move on from the rimfire world, then a .223 makes a ton of sense. A rifle for this purpose should be cheap to feed, use common components, and be able to be fed with off-the-shelf factor fodder if dad doesn't have time to reload (because life happens). Nothing I can think of fits the bill quite like good ol' .223 Rem.

Keep the barrel reasonably short (no need for a 26" truck axle), make sure the stock or chassis is quickly adjustable (especially if you are accommodating multiple shooters of different size), and install a decent optic in the 3-15x range. I don't have a picture of the rig I built for my sons, but it's simple - a barreled Rem 700 Tactical action from a rifle off the used rack at the local Cabela's, a MDT LSS-XL chassis with AR carbine buttstock setup, and a Nightforce SHV 4-14x scope.

 

[jphil108]

So for you guys that have gotten your kids and grandkids shooting, do you have any advice on keeping kids interest up while shooting? It seems like a dueling tree or some other reactive target would be a good way to keep it fun but still offer some useful practice. I can remember one of my favorite things as a teenager was shooting glass bottles or walking a can up a road with a .22, looking back I cringe thinking about the messes we made or where some of those low angle ricochets went so I’d like to find safer and cleaner reactive targets I can put in front of a berm. I know shooting clays downrange can be fun and making steel swing is a good time when they do graduate to centerfires. Kids seem to stick with something , pay attention and look forward to it more when it’s intentionally fun, it just feels like punching paper at a DNR range might not get it in the early stages.

 

[Penguins]

from .17 rimfires to the .223
Basically no recoil, less noise and muzzle blast than the others.
Make sure to get a rifle with a "youth model" stock.
Most youth model rifles come with shorter barrels (20") also, and that has some advantages and some disadvantages.

 

[NewsShooter]

So for you guys that have gotten your kids and grandkids shooting, do you have any advice on keeping kids interest up while shooting? It seems like a dueling tree or some other reactive target would be a good way to keep it fun but still offer some useful practice. I can remember one of my favorite things as a teenager was shooting glass bottles or walking a can up a road with a .22, looking back I cringe thinking about the messes we made or where some of those low angle ricochets went so I’d like to find safer and cleaner reactive targets I can put in front of a berm. I know shooting clays downrange can be fun and making steel swing is a good time when they do graduate to centerfires. Kids seem to stick with something , pay attention and look forward to it more when it’s intentionally fun, it just feels like punching paper at a DNR range might not get it in the early stages.

I bought some steel reactive .22 targets, squirrels, miniman, dueling tree, want to get a KYL. Put them out from 50-150 yards or further, shooting prone they don't have any trouble hitting them. Once it gets easy, make it a game. Run them on a timer, make them do mag changes, change positions etc.

 

[jphil108]

I love this forum and the different thoughts people have. I can’t really talk myself into a Vudoo barreled action but for around the same price I’m giving serious thought to buying a Bergara B-14R and a either a B14 or a R700 sps in .223, they should both be able to use the same stock initially and I could get an MDT chassis that would allow me to fit everyone in the family and switch between centerfire and rim fire. This sport and the equipment has really evolved since I started shooting.

 

[z7.jled]

Reactive steel is great for kids, mixing up distance and size is important

Clay pigeons along a hillside at 50-100 yds are great

if you can’t do steel, print your own paper targets, dots, deer shapes, my 8 year old daughter enjoyed about 6 storm troopers and death Vader printed to be about 3” tall

Make sure the gun fits the kid, make sure they can get comfortable behind it, for me that means a Ruger precision rimfire, vortex pst 4-16 and in sacrifice my ckye-pod because my kids can get the rifle to the perfect height

most importantly, keep it fun, if the kid isn’t having fun, stop, go get an ice cream cone on the way home, don’t make it stressful, stay as long as they want to, but if they are tired, take them home,

Also always discuss safety, our discussion in the car is over 4 fundamental rules of safety, we practice good fundamentals with hand placement (don’t get near the trigger until ready) we verbalize When the Gun is on/off safe, whena string of fire is over the 8 year old does and says “safety on, bolt back, mag out, chamber flag in” - when they are mature and focused enough let them be in charge to an extent

 

[steve123]

I agreee 100% with starting with a serviceable .22, my plan is to start them with a pcp air rifle in the back yard with a good back stop and not start them on rim fires until I can gauge their responsibility with the task at hand. I will consider a rascal over using my granddads Winchester 67 that I learned on. I’m probably overthinking future events, but I want them to have a good transition into centerfire rifles, when my uncle taught me I went straight from a .22 to a 1903. I learned to deal with the recoil pretty well but I had a flinch for a while and it took a lot of dry firing to get that to go away. I appreciate the input! How are the sights and trigger on the rascal? If they enjoy shooting, I would ultimately like to buy each of my kids a bolt action .22, a 20 gauge 870, and a Tikka .308 spread out over several birthdays.

The PCP idea is perfect for starting off kids that young!

Accident happens all involved are likely to survive.

I recommend a CZ200 type. I think Daisy has a rebranded version.

Lots of advantages to pcp's, utmost for training is a tin of 500 pellets is 8-15 dollars depending on what quality you want.

Make sure you buy a scope that focuses down to 10y.

 

[E. Bryant]

So for you guys that have gotten your kids and grandkids shooting, do you have any advice on keeping kids interest up while shooting?

Both of my boys enjoy shooting steel. My oldest has taken a particular liking to the Know Your Limits rack.

 

[jphil108]

The PCP idea is perfect for starting off kids that young!

Accident happens all involved are likely to survive.

I recommend a CZ200 type. I think Daisy has a rebranded version.

Lots of advantages to pcp's, utmost for training is a tin of 500 pellets is 8-15 dollars depending on what quality you want.

Make sure you buy a scope that focuses down to 10y.

I have a Benjamin fortitude .22 that I shoot quite a bit but it would be on the heavier side for kids doing anything other than prone and the length of pull is fixed so it may be harder to fit for a young shooter. I appreciate the heads up on the cz, looks like better fit and finish than the Benjamin, my only real complaint out of the Benjamin so far is the trigger but it’s not as bad as my springer I had as a teenager. Scope is a cheap UTG, The parallax goes to 5 yards and it has been pretty decent, but not going to win any awards for quality, Works well for rodents off the back deck. If the boys like backyard target work it may get better quality glass.

 

[VJJPunisher]

9mm bolt gun or gfy

 

[jphil108]

9mm bolt gun or gfy

ha, it’s only slightly more useless than the blackout. Probably wins points for price to feed.

 

[steve123]

I have a Benjamin fortitude .22 that I shoot quite a bit but it would be on the heavier side for kids doing anything other than prone and the length of pull is fixed so it may be harder to fit for a young shooter. I appreciate the heads up on the cz, looks like better fit and finish than the Benjamin, my only real complaint out of the Benjamin so far is the trigger but it’s not as bad as my springer I had as a teenager. Scope is a cheap UTG, The parallax goes to 5 yards and it has been pretty decent, but not going to win any awards for quality, Works well for rodents off the back deck. If the boys like backyard target work it may get better quality glass.

We got the trigger on my friends 6fpe(7.9gr at 600fps) CZ200 down to a 10oz single stage. His back is ruined so it's the only rifle he can shoot offhand without it hurting him and yes the quality is much better than the Fortitude. The 6fpe rifle is the way to go for kids because the shot count is huge like around 100 shots and it's quiet, as well as safer to shoot in neighborhoods. It's accurate too, CZ's are known for their airgun barrels being good shooters.

Except for windage needed at long range for an air rifle of this low power, which is one of things you are trying to teach the boys anyway, you can hit stuff the size of a pop can out to 75Y. I can hit those little airgun sized rams at 50Y everytime when it's calm out with JSB 8.4's going 550 fps using my Steyr LGB1 biathlon trainer.

I have a FFP Athlon Talos BTR 4-14x44 on that Steyr ,which has an all .2 mil reticle in it, and it focuses down to 10Y.

 

[sea2summit]

I started all of mine on M&P 15-22’s and the transition to ARs for hunting was seemless.

If I did it over maybe I’d do a bolt gun but during the obummer years I was kind of pushing to get them good on the AR platforms. It turned out okay though, this is 2.3 with her AR and bolt gun (bolt gun was her #1 Christmas and birthday item so how could I say no twice)

Her favorite targets are gumballs at 100 yards.

The boy and I do a lot of hunting but he enjoys pistols more. The littlest is still working her fundamentals but we’ll try to get her on a deer this year.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Then I said “your not that straight then are ya”

 

[jphil108]

Then I said “your not that straight then are ya”

Don’t get me wrong it would definitely be fun in the wind, which is the stated purpose, what’s accuracy like and what do you normally feed it? I remember seeing that thing a while back, that’s one you had built on a CZ action? what do you use it for primarily? Definitely awesome, have you looked into a .45 ACP version?

 

[Eadle]

So for you guys that have gotten your kids and grandkids shooting, do you have any advice on keeping kids interest up while shooting? It seems like a dueling tree or some other reactive target would be a good way to keep it fun but still offer some useful practice. I can remember one of my favorite things as a teenager was shooting glass bottles or walking a can up a road with a .22, looking back I cringe thinking about the messes we made or where some of those low angle ricochets went so I’d like to find safer and cleaner reactive targets I can put in front of a berm. I know shooting clays downrange can be fun and making steel swing is a good time when they do graduate to centerfires. Kids seem to stick with something , pay attention and look forward to it more when it’s intentionally fun, it just feels like punching paper at a DNR range might not get it in the early stages.

My favorite is drill some holes on a 2×4 and stick the dum dum suckers in the holes.

 

[thejeep]

just get something with adjustable lop.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Don’t get me wrong it would definitely be fun in the wind, which is the stated purpose, what’s accuracy like and what do you normally feed it? I remember seeing that thing a while back, that’s one you had built on a CZ action? what do you use it for primarily? Definitely awesome, have you looked into a .45 ACP version?

Would probably be good for teaching drop at distance/holdovers, handling a full sized gun, plus it should be quiet therefore easier for the kid to learn on.

 

[geek65]

I started my son shooting when he was about 10 years old. I started with a .22LR bolt action then a Ruger 10/22, we used "shoot and see" targets at 50m. Now he mostly shoots a Ruger PR in 6.5CM and we shoot everything from 100m - 1000m. We will be shooting a McQueens competition this weekend (300m instead of 200/300).