Rifle Scopes Thoughts on poss. selling Vortex Gen 2 4.5-27 for Cronus BTR 4.5-29 & XLR Element chassis

[BroncoMustang]

I am in the process of a build (of a bolt-action rifle) which will include an ARC Nucleus action, Huber concepts two-stage trigger, Bartlein barrel for .308 with an 11.25 twist rate and an XLR Element chassis; just waiting on the action to be delivered. In the meantime I am contemplating selling my never used Vortex Razor 4.5-27x56 Gen 2 rifle scope and then buying an Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29x56 scope and an XLR Element rifle chassis. I read (last night?) on the Hide, that some thought that the Gen II has superior glass when compared to the BTR.
I plan on shooting bench rest, target and prone anywhere from 100 going up to 1,000 yards. I will be shooting mostly at daytime, but that could include overcast, cloudy days. Having plenty of time to decide before the action arrives, I am hoping to make a determination as to whether I should keep the Vortex Gen II or sell it and get the Athlon Cronus BTR. What are your thoughts about this? Any input or feedback you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Oh, and my Gen II is a FFP; the Cronus (if bought) would be, too.

 

[volucris]

Don't bother with Athlon. It's the Avon Cosmetics of scopes right now.

 

[Sharpened Graphite]

Don't bother with Athlon. It's the Avon Cosmetics of scopes right now.

Tell us how you really feel.

 

[wareagle700]

Yeah I'd not do that. Just save for the chassis.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Tell us how you really feel.

Thank you; I appreciate the feedback.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Tell us how you really feel.

Thanks for your opinion; I appreciate it.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Yeah I'd not do that. Just save for the chassis.

Thank you. I value your input. Seeing that three guys are saying the same thing, I am leaning in that direction now.

 

[Sharpened Graphite]

Thank you. I value your input. Seeing that three guys are saying the same thing, I am leaning in that direction now.

Let's just say that people gathering on a forum will typically form similar opinions. I've had both, sold both. Pick the reticle you like. I don't like floating crosshairs and wide zoom ratios, that's why I'm not into the Cronus. Keep in mind, the internet is filled with people who thought the PST Gen I was the best thing since sliced bread. This is the same pool of people that thinks the Razor Gen II is the best thing since sliced bread. The only way you'll know is if you look through both in a comparable field setting. Looking around the house, or 200 yards down the driveway, you can't really tell. I'd say a minimum of 600 is where the separation of good from great begins.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Thanks again. Since I plan to shoot out to at least 600 yards, hopefully 1000, it sounds like the Vortex Gen 2 will outperform the BTR.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Let's just say that people gathering on a forum will typically form similar opinions. I've had both, sold both. Pick the reticle you like. I don't like floating crosshairs and wide zoom ratios, that's why I'm not into the Cronus. Keep in mind, the internet is filled with people who thought the PST Gen I was the best thing since sliced bread. This is the same pool of people that thinks the Razor Gen II is the best thing since sliced bread. The only way you'll know is if you look through both in a comparable field setting. Looking around the house, or 200 yards down the driveway, you can't really tell. I'd say a minimum of 600 is where the separation of good from great begins.

I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to lump in fans of a fairly low tier optic made in the phillipines with fans of a flagship optic made in Japan. Pretty sure people who either decide to spend the cash or have the cash for the Gen II aren’t really interested in the PST line.

 

[wareagle700]

The only way you'll know is if you look through both in a comparable field setting. Looking around the house, or 200 yards down the driveway, you can't really tell. I'd say a minimum of 600 is where the separation of good from great begins.

Glass quality, especially in those two scopes, is not an indication of overall quality. Looking through a scope doesn't tell you anything about zero retention, tracking, or durability, all of which are vastly more important in a precision rifle scope.

 

[fdkay]

There are plenty of folks of folks that are absolutely pleased with the Chronus scope.
It is a high quality, mid-range, japanese made scope. (The sightmark pinnacle is very similar).
The Gen II Razor is a helluva scope, but I doubt very much that you are going to miss targets because you went with the Cronus.
Personally, I would likely keep it, just to make things simpler.

 

[CharlieNC]

You can invest as much as you want in a scope. I shot comps with a kid who often won, and he used a $150 Bushnell Elite 10X past 1000yd. He has subsequently upgraded but doesn't shoot any better. These days there are many scopes that will achieve your needs quite well, while the debates over which turrets are more crisp rage on. The Cronus will surpass your needs. Scopes, like stocks, are a very personal choice and thankfully we have options.

 

[diverdon]

You should probably go with a 10 twist in case you ever want to shoot a heavy bullet. For that matter I would go with a 6.5 of some flavor.

 

[BurnOut]

If it was me, I'd stick with the Vortex optic... especially since you already have it in-hand.

Anyhow, there's nothing at all wrong with the Cronus... it's a great optic. In terms of performance, it's probably 95% of the GenII Razor (IMO) at around 75% of the price... it's greatest strength (again, IMO) is in the value that it offers; in other words, bang-for-the-buck. Nonetheless, the Vortex still brings some things to the table that the Cronus doesn't, which is why I'd personally choose to stay with it rather than sell and go to a Cronus.

FWIW, I am about to spend some serious time behind a Cronus for the first time... later this week I'm going on my yearly two-day prairie dog excursion. For the last couple of years, I've been using a rifle equipped with a TT 5-25, so it'll be interesting to compare extended intervals between the TT and the Cronus. I have no illusions about the ultimate quality delta between the two optics, but let's be honest... you begin to notice some things once you've spent a few contiguous hours behind an optic that weren't apparent at first glance.

 

[EscapeVelocity]

Don't bother with Athlon. It's the Avon Cosmetics of scopes right now.

I feel like Vortex was that way when they started. Now they have quite a following.

 

[BroncoMustang]

If it was me, I'd stick with the Vortex optic... especially since you already have it in-hand.

Anyhow, there's nothing at all wrong with the Cronus... it's a great optic. In terms of performance, it's probably 95% of the GenII Razor (IMO) at around 75% of the price... it's greatest strength (again, IMO) is in the value that it offers; in other words, bang-for-the-buck. Nonetheless, the Vortex still brings some things to the table that the Cronus doesn't, which is why I'd personally choose to stay with it rather than sell and go to a Cronus.

FWIW, I am about to spend some serious time behind a Cronus for the first time... later this week I'm going on my yearly two-day prairie dog excursion. For the last couple of years, I've been using a rifle equipped with a TT 5-25, so it'll be interesting to compare extended intervals between the TT and the Cronus. I have no illusions about the ultimate quality delta between the two optics, but let's be honest... you begin to notice some things once you've spent a few contiguous hours behind an optic that weren't apparent at first glance.

Thanks, and looking forward to hearing your thoughts about the Cronus & how it performed.

 

[BroncoMustang]

I feel like Vortex was that way when they started. Now they have quite a following.

I heard that was a fairly prominent thought about Vortex, but the Gen 2 put that to rest.

 

[BroncoMustang]

There are plenty of folks of folks that are absolutely pleased with the Chronus scope.
It is a high quality, mid-range, japanese made scope. (The sightmark pinnacle is very similar).
The Gen II Razor is a helluva scope, but I doubt very much that you are going to miss targets because you went with the Cronus.
Personally, I would likely keep it, just to make things simpler.

Thanks for your input; I appreciate it.

 

[USMC 308]

So much opinion vs. facts regarding optics.....it's always been like that here. I love Vortex and if you don't you're stupid. Think like me or else!! It's exhausting to read the never ending emotional outbursts.

I've owned both a Vortex AMG and an Athlon Cronus BTR....compared them side by side even. I sold the AMG and bought a second Cronus. What does that tell you......some would say that I'm ignorant.....others that I'm cutting edge. I personally don't give a shit....because unlike most of them, I've actually owned both. I think the AMG was a fine scope....I just liked the Cronus more. I would never call Vortex garbage or anything derogatory.

Do Vortex scopes fail.....yup. Do Athlon scopes fail.....yup. I have not seen any statistical data to show one fails at a higher rate than the other.

Fall for the stupid emotion or stand up to it.

 

[USMC 308]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ior-valdada-4x24-m1-for-ar15.23178/

Nice thread Volucris.

This from the self confessed noob who is asking about an IOR.......haha. How did a noob come to gather such extensive experience with an Athlon Cronus BTR vs. a Vortex Razor Gen 2. Have you even looked through either one?

Read more, post less......just a suggestion.

edit....ok, his post is from way back didn't catch that. You may have the experience now. How was the IOR?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'm far from a fan of Vortex but after using a Cronus a couple of times I agree with the others and IMO the Cronus would be a definite downgrade. I'd run your Vortex until you have a reason to upgrade from it.

 

[Dsparil]

Not sure if serious. For $1700 you get everything the Razor has minus the weight. Have you ever even used one?

 

[EscapeVelocity]

I'm far from a fan of Vortex but after using a Cronus a couple of times I agree with the others and IMO the Cronus would be a definite downgrade. I'd run your Vortex until you have a reason to upgrade from it.

How so? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I am curious.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

We've had excellent feedback on the Cronus, and at the moment we have some NRA Show samples that can get you into a Cronus at a very sharp price

 

[volucris]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ior-valdada-4x24-m1-for-ar15.23178/

Nice thread Volucris.

This from the self confessed noob who is asking about an IOR.......haha. How did a noob come to gather such extensive experience with an Athlon Cronus BTR vs. a Vortex Razor Gen 2. Have you even looked through either one?

Read more, post less......just a suggestion.

edit....ok, his post is from way back didn't catch that. You may have the experience now. How was the IOR?

Congrats, Detective. Really great work there. Most people including myself actually learn and develop themselves in ten years. May want to consider that.

And I never bought an IOR after doing research into them. Right now I actually own a Gen II Razor 4.5-27, and yes, I've used Athlons flagship stuff to try it out.

 

[BroncoMustang]

So much opinion vs. facts regarding optics.....it's always been like that here. I love Vortex and if you don't you're stupid. Think like me or else!! It's exhausting to read the never ending emotional outbursts.

I've owned both a Vortex AMG and an Athlon Cronus BTR....compared them side by side even. I sold the AMG and bought a second Cronus. What does that tell you......some would say that I'm ignorant.....others that I'm cutting edge. I personally don't give a shit....because unlike most of them, I've actually owned both. I think the AMG was a fine scope....I just liked the Cronus more. I would never call Vortex garbage or anything derogatory.

Do Vortex scopes fail.....yup. Do Athlon scopes fail.....yup. I have not seen any statistical data to show one fails at a higher rate than the other.

Fall for the stupid emotion or stand up to it.View attachment 6903047

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it. By the way, what are all the components in your rig? Looks nice.

 

[BroncoMustang]

I'm far from a fan of Vortex but after using a Cronus a couple of times I agree with the others and IMO the Cronus would be a definite downgrade. I'd run your Vortex until you have a reason to upgrade from it.

Thanks for your feedback; much appreciated.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Not sure if serious. For $1700 you get everything the Razor has minus the weight. Have you ever even used one?

Thanks for the feedback; your echoing what I heard from someone else (that the Cronus is lighter).

 

[Muscleminded]

I have used both. The athlon chronus has a lot smaller eye box. Meaning the eye relief is weird. You have to get your eye positioned perfect to see. Very little deviation towards or away from the scope and you can’t see crap. The gen 2 is also noticably better past 400 and especially with mirage in play.

 

[Aaron47pb]

If you can swing it, buy the Cronus and shoot it side by side with your Razor. In terms of glass quality, everyone has different eyes (and preferences), so you will never know which one is best to your eye until you shoot both and can compare them.

 

[patriot07]

I have used both. The athlon chronus has a lot smaller eye box. Meaning the eye relief is weird. You have to get your eye positioned perfect to see. Very little deviation towards or away from the scope and you can’t see crap. The gen 2 is also noticably better past 400 and especially with mirage in play.

This is something that gets lost in a lot of these scope opinions IMHO. Good glass seems to really show itself at longer distances. We were at an 1,100 yard range a couple weeks ago with an SWFA 16x, SWFA 3-15, SWFA 5-20 HD, and Kahles 624i. The SWFA 3-15 and 16x were fine at 100-400. At 500-800, the SWFA 5-20 HD was head and shoulders above those two. At 900+, the Kahles was really a step above the SWFA 5-20 HD (although the 5-20 HD still did very well, but the Kahles was really impressive). The SWFA 3-15 and 16x at 1,100 were really showing the glass quality deficiency, while there really wasn't an enormous difference betweeen any of them at 100 yards. JMHO, and it's worth what you paid for it.

As to the original question, I wouldn't risk the glass downgrade. If you think you want to do it, I'd consider buying the Athlon before selling the Vortex and then making the decision.

 

[hypno02]

I shoot a lot of rounds. Through a lot of different scopes. Let me tell you a story.

At heart I’m a NF guy. Nightforce scopes work, they track, and they don’t break. Last year I shot a 5-25 H59. Basically a perfect scope. Utmost confidence in this optic.

I switched professions and the nightforce stayed with my prior employer so I decided to go with a Cronus BTR as I won a match and had a top 3 with the original Cronus two years ago. The Cronus has spectacular glass, a great reticle, and knobs that do the job just fine for this sport.

I was a week out from my first match (three weeks ago) and decided to do a tall target test with my Cronus bc Soke of my 600yd+ dope wasn’t lining up. Good thing I did as the Cronus hit at 10.8mil when I had 10 dialed.

Disclaimer: I’m the type of guy that when something fails I lose all faith in that product no matter the warranty.

Reticle design carries a lot of importance in my optic selection. I won’t shoot any reticle competitively that doesn’t have .2 wind holds. So I found an AMG in the px and had that bitch expedited for my match in 4 days.

Awesome scope. Not sure how they created that scope in a 30mm tube. Glass is on par with the NF. Glass is as well. The reticle is freakin awesome and the turrets are very solid.

Moral of the story: The Cronus is a great scope on paper. I question their QC. (Now) If I’m going to take an optic to war that won’t fail it’s going to be a NF. The AMG is a fucking cool optic that is truly an optical anomaly. Do I treat it like I did my NF? Hell no. That scope is babied.

Nightforce—give me a Mil-c with a vortex Xmas tree and I’ll never buy another LR optic.

OP- The Gen 2 razor hits more targets in PRS comps than any other optic. They’re a beast but they work. If I were in your shoes I would not ditch the razor. Nor would I go with an XLR. I’d opt for the magpul pro.

 

[USMC 308]

Hypno, good story. Thanks for the info. Looks like I will be doing a couple of Tall Target Tests......I have 2 Cronus BTR's.

Fact vs emotion right there.

 

[steve123]

I switched professions and the nightforce stayed with my prior employer so I decided to go with a Cronus BTR as I won a match and had a top 3 with the original Cronus two years ago. The Cronus has spectacular glass, a great reticle, and knobs that do the job just fine for this sport.

I was a week out from my first match (three weeks ago) and decided to do a tall target test with my Cronus bc Soke of my 600yd+ dope wasn’t lining up. Good thing I did as the Cronus hit at 10.8mil when I had 10 dialed.

I know the message you are trying to convey but...

You won and had top 3's with a scope that was only off less than 1%. Actually .8 mil is only approx 2" at 600Y/wrong. ("Edit, yeah sorry, I had .08 mil in my head vs .8 mil, .8 mil is quite a bit", I've never had a scope off that far yet.)
I have too with a S&B that's off 1% by 7 mils, however it's corrected for now in my ballistic app, Heck I never sent that scope in, in fact I was hitting a 15" wide plate at 1900Y fairly often with it. I'm conjecturing here but I bet most of the scopes used in PRS or NRL comps are 1% off. That's 3.6" off at 1000Y but our rifles group twice that on a good day at 1000Y.

Nobody can say that any brand of scope tracks 100% perfectly. It's a unit per unit thing, not brand per brand thing.

Let's just say that there can be different factors causing 600Y dope not to line up, and the dope lined up before right??? Using temp sensitive powders, new barrels speeding up, old barrels slowing down, station pressure not accounted for, zero not correct, parallax error, etc, or combination of....

It could be your Cronus broke and needs to be sent back, just like all the top brands do eventually, and I've seen the threads of G2 Razors breaking as well, and I'm not saying it's not a great scope. I had a NXS 5.5-22 screw up and I know a guy who's F1 was DOA.

As to which scope one likes and why, we're all different, choose your reasons/preferences and accept the compromises because no scope is perfect.

Heck I'd keep the Razor because it's paid for and keep saving for the other stuff. I don't want to sell my S&B's because of the hit I'd take compared to what I paid new. I'm kinda pissed S&B dropped the price on new ones because I'd loose almost $1000 now.

 

[USMC 308]

My math shows it's closer to 3 inches (2.88 inches) (edit on the tall target test) which translates to approx 8% off.....significant when thinking of scope reliability. I get what you mean regarding the actual distance though. Anything over 2% I would be unhappy with.....closer to 1% is acceptable and probably the norm for quality manufacturers.

I'm going to run both of my BTR's through a TTT this week and see what I get.

Gonna put that roll of graph paper to use Rob01 gave me 15 years ago

 

[Dthomas3523]

I shoot a lot of rounds. Through a lot of different scopes. Let me tell you a story.

At heart I’m a NF guy. Nightforce scopes work, they track, and they don’t break. Last year I shot a 5-25 H59. Basically a perfect scope. Utmost confidence in this optic.

I switched professions and the nightforce stayed with my prior employer so I decided to go with a Cronus BTR as I won a match and had a top 3 with the original Cronus two years ago. The Cronus has spectacular glass, a great reticle, and knobs that do the job just fine for this sport.

I was a week out from my first match (three weeks ago) and decided to do a tall target test with my Cronus bc Soke of my 600yd+ dope wasn’t lining up. Good thing I did as the Cronus hit at 10.8mil when I had 10 dialed.

Disclaimer: I’m the type of guy that when something fails I lose all faith in that product no matter the warranty.

Reticle design carries a lot of importance in my optic selection. I won’t shoot any reticle competitively that doesn’t have .2 wind holds. So I found an AMG in the px and had that bitch expedited for my match in 4 days.

Awesome scope. Not sure how they created that scope in a 30mm tube. Glass is on par with the NF. Glass is as well. The reticle is freakin awesome and the turrets are very solid.

Moral of the story: The Cronus is a great scope on paper. I question their QC. (Now) If I’m going to take an optic to war that won’t fail it’s going to be a NF. The AMG is a fucking cool optic that is truly an optical anomaly. Do I treat it like I did my NF? Hell no. That scope is babied.

Nightforce—give me a Mil-c with a vortex Xmas tree and I’ll never buy another LR optic.

OP- The Gen 2 razor hits more targets in PRS comps than any other optic. They’re a beast but they work. If I were in your shoes I would not ditch the razor. Nor would I go with an XLR. I’d opt for the magpul pro.

Very similar situation as I have used NF in my profession as well.

Now I have an AMG after going through my fair share of brands. For my eyes, it’s the best optic (excluding TT and hendsolt price range) I’ve found to date.

You can also be as rough with it as you want. I’ve found their durability to be on par with NF(of course this is personally owned vs dept/agency owned, so you’ll treat it accordingly).

 

[patriot07]

If you're zero-ed and dial 10 mils (roughly 1,100 yard dope for a fast-ish 6.5 CM), and you get 10.8 mils, then you're off 32" at 1,100 yards. Unless you're literally shooting at the side of a barn, you're going to miss.

Unless my math is off...that seems like a ton of error.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yea, I deleted my post immediately once I caught my brain fart.

8% is a ton.

 

[patriot07]

I deleted mine too then. I wasn't sure if my math was off or if I was just looking at it wrong.

 

[BroncoMustang]

I have used both. The athlon chronus has a lot smaller eye box. Meaning the eye relief is weird. You have to get your eye positioned perfect to see. Very little deviation towards or away from the scope and you can’t see crap. The gen 2 is also noticably better past 400 and especially with mirage in play.

Thanks for the information; I appreciate it.

 

[BroncoMustang]

If you can swing it, buy the Cronus and shoot it side by side with your Razor. In terms of glass quality, everyone has different eyes (and preferences), so you will never know which one is best to your eye until you shoot both and can compare them.

Thanks for the suggestion; I just might do that.

 

[BroncoMustang]

I shoot a lot of rounds. Through a lot of different scopes. Let me tell you a story.

At heart I’m a NF guy. Nightforce scopes work, they track, and they don’t break. Last year I shot a 5-25 H59. Basically a perfect scope. Utmost confidence in this optic.

I switched professions and the nightforce stayed with my prior employer so I decided to go with a Cronus BTR as I won a match and had a top 3 with the original Cronus two years ago. The Cronus has spectacular glass, a great reticle, and knobs that do the job just fine for this sport.

I was a week out from my first match (three weeks ago) and decided to do a tall target test with my Cronus bc Soke of my 600yd+ dope wasn’t lining up. Good thing I did as the Cronus hit at 10.8mil when I had 10 dialed.

Disclaimer: I’m the type of guy that when something fails I lose all faith in that product no matter the warranty.

Reticle design carries a lot of importance in my optic selection. I won’t shoot any reticle competitively that doesn’t have .2 wind holds. So I found an AMG in the px and had that bitch expedited for my match in 4 days.

Awesome scope. Not sure how they created that scope in a 30mm tube. Glass is on par with the NF. Glass is as well. The reticle is freakin awesome and the turrets are very solid.

Moral of the story: The Cronus is a great scope on paper. I question their QC. (Now) If I’m going to take an optic to war that won’t fail it’s going to be a NF. The AMG is a fucking cool optic that is truly an optical anomaly. Do I treat it like I did my NF? Hell no. That scope is babied.

Nightforce—give me a Mil-c with a vortex Xmas tree and I’ll never buy another LR optic.

OP- The Gen 2 razor hits more targets in PRS comps than any other optic. They’re a beast but they work. If I were in your shoes I would not ditch the razor. Nor would I go with an XLR. I’d opt for the magpul pro.

Thanks for the information and advice concerning the stock. What did you like more about the Magpul pro, just out of curiosity?

 

[BroncoMustang]

Very similar situation as I have used NF in my profession as well.

Now I have an AMG after going through my fair share of brands. For my eyes, it’s the best optic (excluding TT and hendsolt price range) I’ve found to date.

You can also be as rough with it as you want. I’ve found their durability to be on par with NF(of course this is personally owned vs dept/agency owned, so you’ll treat it accordingly).

Thanks for the feedback; much appreciated.

 

[BroncoMustang]

This is something that gets lost in a lot of these scope opinions IMHO. Good glass seems to really show itself at longer distances. We were at an 1,100 yard range a couple weeks ago with an SWFA 16x, SWFA 3-15, SWFA 5-20 HD, and Kahles 624i. The SWFA 3-15 and 16x were fine at 100-400. At 500-800, the SWFA 5-20 HD was head and shoulders above those two. At 900+, the Kahles was really a step above the SWFA 5-20 HD (although the 5-20 HD still did very well, but the Kahles was really impressive). The SWFA 3-15 and 16x at 1,100 were really showing the glass quality deficiency, while there really wasn't an enormous difference betweeen any of them at 100 yards. JMHO, and it's worth what you paid for it.

As to the original question, I wouldn't risk the glass downgrade. If you think you want to do it, I'd consider buying the Athlon before selling the Vortex and then making the decision.

You are the second person to suggest this; you know what they say: great minds think alike.

 

[BroncoMustang]

Hypno, good story. Thanks for the info. Looks like I will be doing a couple of Tall Target Tests......I have 2 Cronus BTR's.

Fact vs emotion right there.

If I get the Cronus BTR, I'll have to do the climbing / tracking test as part of the evaluation. Thanks.

 

[BroncoMustang]

If I missed anyone else I appreciate you talking the time to respond and allow me and others to learn from your experiences.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I get the Cronus BTR, I'll have to do the climbing / tracking test as part of the evaluation. Thanks.

Do it with all your optics, regardless of quality. It’s the only way you will know exactly what your optic does.

 

[pell1203]

For what it’s worth... arguably only a sample of one, but my 4.5-27x56 Athlon Cronus BTR has successfully completed a 10 mil tracking test several times so far. Tests were performed at 100 meters so the predicted elevation change for dialing 10 mil at 100 meters distance is 100 cm above the zero.

All tests have yielded an actual elevation gain difference falling between 99.85 cm and 100.4 cm per center to center of measured 5 shot groups.

This averages out to an error of less than 0.05%. Certainly not enough to require a turret correction be used in the ballistic program for this example of one.