Wondering what the community thoughts are on the SIG 716 DMR G2. SIG is releasing a 6.5 Creedmoor on this platform, and it seemed very tempting.
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jmw
R,
jmw
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Thoughts on the SIG 716 DMR G2?
- Thread starter JohnMWoo
- Start date
I liked the Gen 1 SIG 716 DMR and though about buying one. Waited to long and they came out with the Gen 2. I dont like the changes they made even if they come out with the 6.5 CM.
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Depends on your use case I guess. Street price on these seems to be about $2500-$2750, at that price I'd never buy one. Sig is not the company they once were and they prove it with significant problems with just about every new design they release (MPX, MCX, 320, 365, the list goes on). Their quality control simply does not justify their prices these days. The 716 reviews prove it out as well, most people get good ones 1/2-1" MOA, others have accuracy issues, you just don't see that with Seekins/GAP10's.
When you can buy a Seekins SP-10 for the same money, or a GAP-10 for a couple hundred dollars more, it's hard to even consider a Sig 716. Especially when most are going to spend another $200-300 replacing the Sig trigger out of the box.
When you can buy a Seekins SP-10 for the same money, or a GAP-10 for a couple hundred dollars more, it's hard to even consider a Sig 716. Especially when most are going to spend another $200-300 replacing the Sig trigger out of the box.
I just got done teaching a 3 day course in which four students, all LEO snipers, where running GEN 2 716's. Honestly as much as I wanted to dislike them, those 4 guns where the best shooting large frame gas guns I've seen in a awhile and I see quite a few. The caveat to this, while all four guns consistently hovered between 0.5-0.75 MOA with FGMM 168/175's, for over 1500 rounds, previously these four guns had to be sent back to SIG two or three times over the last year because of accuracy issues, before SIG finally replace the barrels with Bartlein's. Clearly SIG can do it right...if they want to. Luckly these guys had the punching power of large department behind them and with enough bitching they made them right but for the average joe, I'd be hesitant.
Yeah, my take away from that would be more that Sig sent LEO's four 716's and every one had accuracy problems and needed to be returned multiple times, more than they were impressive once Sig finally put custom barrels on them. I doubt the average customer is going to get that treatment, I have read about Sig refunding a couple 716 owners who returned guns multiple times and Sig could not get them sorted out and Sig finally just gave up and offered a refund.
I know it's not a DMR G2, but with my 1st gen patrol I tried six different factory loads. 150gn hunting loads from Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, and Norma. As well as 168 ELD-M, and 178 ELD-X. Shot two, five shot groups each box and the best I got was 1.25" MOA with Hornady 150gn SST.
Going to go out again this weekend, and bring some stuff from Federal with me to try as well. I was at least hoping to get 1 MOA, which I'm sure I could get if I reloaded.
This gun I replaced the trigger with an adjustable Triggertech and scope is a Leupold Mark AR 4-12x40. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the rifle. I'm confident in my ability to shoot precise groups though, and that story above is not the first one I have read of with inaccurate rifles from Sig.
If I was to do this over again, I would be looking at JP, or Seekins. Not impressed with Sig. I don't care how many Gov contracts they get, they are not getting another dime from me.
Oh, also changed the buffer and spring to a H3 and a red sprinco so it would stop scrambling my brain every time I pulled the trigger, even with a break on the muzzle. Over gassed POS. I basically hate the thing. I know, it's a patrol rifle and not a DMR, but for $2,200 when it was new, I expected better.
Going to go out again this weekend, and bring some stuff from Federal with me to try as well. I was at least hoping to get 1 MOA, which I'm sure I could get if I reloaded.
This gun I replaced the trigger with an adjustable Triggertech and scope is a Leupold Mark AR 4-12x40. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the rifle. I'm confident in my ability to shoot precise groups though, and that story above is not the first one I have read of with inaccurate rifles from Sig.
If I was to do this over again, I would be looking at JP, or Seekins. Not impressed with Sig. I don't care how many Gov contracts they get, they are not getting another dime from me.
Oh, also changed the buffer and spring to a H3 and a red sprinco so it would stop scrambling my brain every time I pulled the trigger, even with a break on the muzzle. Over gassed POS. I basically hate the thing. I know, it's a patrol rifle and not a DMR, but for $2,200 when it was new, I expected better.
What misleads people is that when you get into these "gray" area rifles, say $1500+ production guns is there's enough quality from the factory that some of them are hammers, but not enough quality control to ensure it. They randomly run from 0.5 MOA to one that might not shoot 3 MOA, most probably fall into the 1-1.5 MOA range. Everyone wants the 0.5 MOA gun, and you can either play roulette with a factory gun to get it, or you can just buy something custom, as the price gets so close to custom, to me it's never worth the gamble. Even factory guns with a "1 MOA guarantee" you'll find quite a few won't perform to it. They know the average guy can't shoot that well anyway. I'd bet it's such a small % that come back even out of those that won't shoot, that it's worth the sales boost to give the accuracy guarantee vs what is lost repairing those that don't meet it. Big companies also tend to favor reliability over accuracy, at some point trying to ensure max accuracy reduces reliability. Companies know the average guy buying a $1500 AR can't shoot a 1" group anyway, but will know instantly if it doesn't function 100% with surplus junk to the best reloads. The same is true of handguns, the average person I see walk into our indoor range is lucky if they can shoot a 6" group at 7 yards with anything bigger than a .22. Given that why would a factory handgun company selling millions of guns a year bother making sure they can all shoot 1" groups at 25 yards.
After being disappointed with far too many factory guns, even some with "amazing" test targets and huge price tags. If I want something I'm confident is going to do better than 1 MOA, get a smith/custom barrel involved at some point, wether it's just the upper assembly, whole rifle etc. You just increase your odds that you get the hammer and not the lemon. There are a few exceptions in factory guns that seem to constantly shoot at a high accuracy level, and they are the vast exception.
As a result many hold unreasonable expectations for factory guns, especially the semi-autos. Unfortunately there's just too little quality control in the big production companies and many posts with guys claiming their factory $800 AR, $450 bolt gun is 0.25 MOA gun "all day" that people expect it now. 15 years ago there were very few even custom large frame AR's doing 0.5-0.75" MOA with reloads. Now you see people if they can't get a $1000 AR to shoot 0.75" with surplus ammo they are pissed.
After being disappointed with far too many factory guns, even some with "amazing" test targets and huge price tags. If I want something I'm confident is going to do better than 1 MOA, get a smith/custom barrel involved at some point, wether it's just the upper assembly, whole rifle etc. You just increase your odds that you get the hammer and not the lemon. There are a few exceptions in factory guns that seem to constantly shoot at a high accuracy level, and they are the vast exception.
As a result many hold unreasonable expectations for factory guns, especially the semi-autos. Unfortunately there's just too little quality control in the big production companies and many posts with guys claiming their factory $800 AR, $450 bolt gun is 0.25 MOA gun "all day" that people expect it now. 15 years ago there were very few even custom large frame AR's doing 0.5-0.75" MOA with reloads. Now you see people if they can't get a $1000 AR to shoot 0.75" with surplus ammo they are pissed.
This response nails it to the "T", not only for this thread but you could take this and drop it in response to the "accuracy expectations" and "buy vs. build" currently being discussed. Right now I work for a company right now who is getting into the precision gas gun business, as one of the lead builders and tester I've seen two common denominators that insure accuracy and reliability out of gas gun.
1.) Quality parts: Kind of a no brainer, a shit barrel will never shoot strait. You buy quality parts like a Krieger or Bartlein blank because you know a SME produced it and has conducted a QC and said its good to go, this doesn't mean its perfect but this greatly reducing the chance that you'll have a problem when compared to a manufacturer who doesn't. Of course that takes time and that brings me to the second point.
2.) Time: Sometimes even when using quality components, things just don't always come together, you might crank 9 rifles that all shoot sub-MOA then for some reason number 10 does 1.25 MOA. At this point, a lot of companies will take the cut out as mentioned above, reliability isn't nearly as subjective as accuracy and it takes a lot less time and tinkering to make a gas gun run correctly than shoot accurately. The time (and money) it takes to insure that every rifle in your production line meets your accuracy guaranty can be intensive. That rifle number ten requires a diagnostic of an SME to sort out. Again this isn't rocket science, people build accurate AR's in there garage all the time but when you're running business especially one that supports a martial skill, there is a process and making sure this is done right is costing somebody.
Altogether sorting out who is building worth while large frame gas guns is difficult but if a company is building off of quality parts and actual putting time into there rifles to make sure they do what they say the will do, then the results will speak for them selves.
What a sec, Sig offers Bartlein barrels for their 716? Is this only for LEO or can anyone request a Bartlein?
I believe that request was fulfilled only due to that particular LE organization be very adamant about it. My guess is that Sig would rather not try to constantly cater.
While it's admirable that Sig fixed the problem, it should not have been an issue to begin with.
The very first thing that pops into my my is
-concern about the period of time on the 4 of these between purchase and getting fixed
-Not having gear 100% ready to roll if needed in an LE situation.....leaves more jeopardy out there than needed
I guess it's up to every department to "make the best choice" on their gear......but sub-par LE gesr should not be able to be sold
Back to the OP,
If it were me (and I have no beef with Sig, I have a 938 that is routinely THE choice to carry if needed for self defense)...i would pass on this platform
There's a wealth of information that's been shared by people smarter and more in the know than me on this
The very first thing that pops into my my is
-concern about the period of time on the 4 of these between purchase and getting fixed
-Not having gear 100% ready to roll if needed in an LE situation.....leaves more jeopardy out there than needed
I guess it's up to every department to "make the best choice" on their gear......but sub-par LE gesr should not be able to be sold
Back to the OP,
If it were me (and I have no beef with Sig, I have a 938 that is routinely THE choice to carry if needed for self defense)...i would pass on this platform
There's a wealth of information that's been shared by people smarter and more in the know than me on this
