Tikka 260 Rem - First 9 Shots With Different Charge Weights Have Flyers

[Rommel Garcia]

Issue: All three shot groups have a flyer (3rd shot). The first two shots from all groups are always right next to each other. One group in particular had the first two shots in the same hole. Each group consists of 3 shots. I'll be using the rifle mainly for long-range hunting (100-600 yds) and sometimes target shooting to 1K. All cases were NOT trimmed as it is still under the maximum chamber length (2.0655"). No pressure signs on all of the groups shot. The reloading recipe I'm using is from Nosler. The maximum power grains is 46.0 but I'm still way below that. Their recommended powder charge is 44.0 for the most accurate load. The case length in their recipe is 2.036". I'm using my chamber length as a guide vs their recipe.

Group 1: The first two shots (B1 & B2) were the same hole. 3rd (B3) shot was 0.47" center to center.

Powder Grains: 42.0

Group 2: 1st and 2nd (B1 & B2)shot are 0.20" center to center. 3rd (B3) shot was 1.49" away.

Powder Grains: 42.5

Group 3: 1st 7 2nd shot was the same hole (B1 & B2). 3rd shot was 1.3" away.

Powder Grains: 43.0

I shot 9 rounds which is the first load I created for my Tikka 260 Rem on a Manners Stock EH1TK (with mini-chassis) and Benchmark barrel. I'm using Forster Coax Press and RCBS dies. Here are the details of my components.

Case: Hornady, once fired
FL Sized: Yes
Chamfered & Deburred: Yes
Shoulder Bump: 002"
Primer: Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle
Bullet:142 gr Nosler ABLR Spitzer
Powder: H4831SC

Barrel Length: 24"
Barrel Twist: 1:8
Contour: Light Palma

Atmospheric Condition:
Temp = 75F
Wind Direction = 6 O'Clock
Wind Speed = 7.3 MPH
Wind Gust = 12 MPH
Air Pressure = 29.96 inHg
Relative Humidity = 50%

Shooting Distance: 100 yards
Rifle has a bipod and I load it when shooting. I use an ear bag for vertical adjustments.

Used Magnetospeed with bayo firmly attached to the barrel.

Case Dimensions (Length): Difference max out at 0.005"

Case Identifier	Length Before Resizing	Length After Resizing
C1	2.0215"	2.0265"
C2	2.0240"	2.0295"
C3	2.0230"	2.0280"
C4	2.0265"	2.0320"
C5	2.0250"	2.0310"
C6	2.0250"	2.0295"
C7	2.0240"	2.0295"
C8	2.0230"	2.0290"
C9	Forgot to measure	2.030"

Case Dimensions (Neck): Only two cases had neck diameters greater than 0.002". C4 -> rookie mistake; probably wrote the first reading wrong.

Case Identifier	Neck Diameter Before Bullet Seating	Neck Diameter Post Bullet Seating	Difference
C1	0.2890"	0.2905"	0.0015"
C2	0.2870"	0.2900"	0.003"
C3	0.2875	0.2915"	0.004
C4	0.2890"	0.2890" (not sure why this is)	0.000"
C5	0.2875"	0.2890"	0.0015"
C6	0.2875"	0.2900"	0.0025"
C7	0.2885"	0.2895"	0.001"
C8	0.2875"	0.2900"	0.0025"
C9	0.2875"	0.2985"	0.002"

Bullet Dimensions:

Bullet Identifier	Primer Depth	COAL	Bullet Length (base to ogive)
B1	0.005"	2.8815"	2.2700"
B2	0.0085"	2.8840"	2.2745"
B3	0.0080"	2.8850"	2.2750"
B4	0.005"	2.8830"	2.2755"
B5	0.005"	2.8795"	2.2725"
B6	0.004"	2.8845"	2.2740"
B7	0.004"	2.8845"	2.2755"
B8	0.0045"	2.8855"	2.2745"
B9	0.0045"	2.8860"	2.2770"

Some primers are deeper. COAL is within 0.005" difference. Base to Ogive has a 0.003"max difference.

Bullet Velocity:

Group Identifier	Bullet Identifier	Velocity (fps)	ES (fps)
G1	B1	2520
	B2	2498
	B3(flyer)	2494
			26
G2	B4	2506
	B5	2484
	B6(flyer)	2532
			48
G3	B7	2562
	B8	2534
	B9(flyer)	2562
			60

Please note that Case Identifiers match up with Bullet Identifiers ie. B1 is using C1. What is causing the flyers? I can shoot up to 600 yards with my 6.5 CM (Sako TRG 22) and group a shot at 2".

 

[ShtrRdy]

I didn't go through the full data set but are you shooting the three rounds from the magazine or feeding them one at a time?

 

[Rommel Garcia]

I didn't go through the full data set but are you shooting the three rounds from the magazine or feeding them one at a time?

I’m shooting from the magazine one at time. Only one bullet stays in the mag every shot.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Humm, I don't know if this would apply then, ....... but a couple months ago I was having the same thing happen to me when firing a 223 bolt gun. I would load three or four cartridges into the magazine first. At this point I'm thinking it was something I was doing with the bipod or shoulder pressure/placement. The main reason I came to that conclusion is I fired some shots off a stack of bean-bags. (not hard packed sand)

I haven't been back to the range to prove this out in the last month because I had a hip replaced. Soon I should be able to try again.

It looks like your Tikka is doing really well.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

Humm, I don't know if this would apply then, ....... but a couple months ago I was having the same thing happen to me when firing a 223 bolt gun. I would load three or four cartridges into the magazine first. At this point I'm thinking it was something I was doing with the bipod or shoulder pressure/placement. The main reason I came to that conclusion is I fired some shots off a stack of bean-bags. (not hard packed sand)

I haven't been back to the range to prove this out in the last month because I had a hip replaced. Soon I should be able to try again.

It looks like your Tikka is doing really well.

Yeah I’m thinking I’m probably not consistent with my bipod pressure and shoulder placement. I always blame myself first but when I call my 3rd shots, they go the opposite way. I’m scratching my head on this.

 

[lash]

Yeah I’m thinking I’m probably not consistent with my bipod pressure and shoulder placement. I always blame myself first but when I call my 3rd shots, they go the opposite way. I’m scratching my head on this.

Just for kicks, try your next nine loading each one by hand instead of by magazine.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

Will do. If flyers are eliminated by doing this, does this mean that magazine might be the issue? From the tip of the bullet to the mag lip there’s about .20” clearance.

 

[MarkyMark007]

you have got no issue. those flyers are your group and your shooting.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

you have got no issue. those flyers are your group and your shooting.

Thanks Marky. That’s what I’m hoping. Loading up more cartridge. I’ll bring my friend who shoots better than I do and see where this goes.

 

[JerkyFreak]

This is why 3-shot groups do not mean much. You can only eliminate bad loads; it cannot be used to identify good loads. And, unless you actually see the mistake you made with that specific shot, you cannot call it a "flyer"; it is part of the group.

I'm not saying you did, but stating a general observation. Being able to see the bullet holes from the shooting position tend to exacerbate flyers. Particularly with less experienced shooters. Seeing those first two or 3 holes tightly clustered tends to increase the stress leading to "the fith shot".

On a side note, change your brass to Lapua or Peterson and see the difference.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

That’s good to know. So always use a 5-shot group to find the good load? I’m following the OCW load development and it recommends a minimum of three shots, but encourages 4 shots for the flyer. Would love to hear from someone who’s done this.

 

[Doom]

It looks nice and repeatable. You appear to be shooting a sporter barrel and the effect is due to that. The barrel is heating up. IF this is a hunting rifle you are good to go as you shouldn't need more than 2 shots and if the third is repeatable you will know how to handle it.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

It looks nice and repeatable. You appear to be shooting a sporter barrel and the effect is due to that. The barrel is heating up. IF this is a hunting rifle you are good to go as you shouldn't need more than 2 shots and if the third is repeatable you will know how to handle it.

Didn’t realize that Light Palma contour was a sporter barrel. It definitely is a lot thicker than stock Tikka T3 barrel. It will be mostly hunting rifle and some long range time. I need to take a longer break on the third shot looks like.

 

[LRShooter101]

Your potential causes with the flyer always being the 3rd shot:
Shooter - mentally & physically something is changing, which can be very common when you are anticipating the outcome of the final shot. Recommendation, go to a 5 shot group, and make sure to do your best with all of the fundamentals for each shot.
Heat Induced - obviously as you fire the 3 rounds, the heat in the barrel increases, so it could be an indicator of stress in the barrel. Recommendation, go with the 5 round group, and see if it opens up more as the round count and heat increase.
*Also, your muzzle velocity variation is not very good, you should strive to get that down to 10-15 fps.
Keep up the work and you should be good.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

Thank you. I’m going to try to load up very close to Max, at Max or few grains over Max powder grains. I’ll check for pressure signs each load before I go to the next incremental load. I’ll try 5 shots using OCW test.

 

[Doom]

Didn’t realize that Light Palma contour was a sporter barrel. It definitely is a lot thicker than stock Tikka T3 barrel. It will be mostly hunting rifle and some long range time. I need to take a longer break on the third shot looks like.

I looked but didn't see that. But that looks like what is happening. I don't think it is anything with your load. If you are shooting round robin that could possibly be the issue. You may not be getting on the rifle the same as the first two rounds. You can try 5 shots but as Dan Newberry says 3 shots test the rifle, 5 shots test the shooter. I have found this to often be the case. If you did shoot round robin take one of your loads and load 3 rounds and shoot them in one setup. See if this issue repeats.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

You are right. I didn’t add the contour. Added it now. I didn’t shoot round robin. I shot the load per setup. So for group 1 , all 3 ammo were shot in sequence. Then proceed to group 2. Running low on bullet but will buy more to get to 5 shots each setup.

 

[Doom]

@LRShooter101 makes a good point on last shot mentality and I have seen this myself but not as consistent as you seem to be. As for velocity while you do need to work on your consistency but that is not what is moving the POI on the third shot. Assuming a 100yd target and just about any centerfire cartridge you only move about a caliber for 100 fps due to velocity.

 

[Chris1972]

If you don’t find happiness I would try H-4350.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

If you don’t find happiness I would try H-4350.

Is that a slow burning powder?

 

[Chris1972]

It’s faster than the 4831sc but I also believe it is the correct powder for 140 class bullets in the .260.

I do use it in the CTR .260 and am rather heavy handed with it at 2677 in a 20” barrel.

 

[Rommel Garcia]

It’s faster than the 4831sc but I also believe it is the correct powder for 140 class bullets in the .260.

I do use it in the CTR .260 and am rather heavy handed with it at 2677 in a 20” barrel.

That’s a hot velocity for 260. What groups are you getting?

 

[Chris1972]

It never gets shot for groups since load development but it pretty consistently hits the 3” steel at 500 yards when I do my part.

 

[Im2bent]

No one thinks the magnetospeed might be causing this?

 

[Rommel Garcia]

No one thinks the magnetospeed might be causing this?

I did notice some rubber material under the barrel where the bayo was attached and this tells me that it moved while shooting. The company did say that it doesn’t affect the accuracy of the rifle but I don’t know how true that is. Wouldn’t it be shooting everywhere though if the attachment point is what’s causing the issue?

 

[Rommel Garcia]

I tightened the bayo the best I can and it felt stable.

 

[LRShooter101]

@LRShooter101 makes a good point on last shot mentality and I have seen this myself but not as consistent as you seem to be. As for velocity while you do need to work on your consistency but that is not what is moving the POI on the third shot. Assuming a 100yd target and just about any centerfire cartridge you only move about a caliber for 100 fps due to velocity.

Thinner profile barrels are notorious for being very sensitive to barrel harmonics/whip. If the velocity varies, then the bullet is exiting the barrel at different points in the barrel movement/whip. My comment was based on that, not strictly due to muzzle velocity impacting the external ballistics.

 

[LRShooter101]

That’s a hot velocity for 260. What groups are you getting?

A Rem .260 with a 24"-26" barrel should easily be able to get a 140 class bullet up to at least 2650 fps if not 2700 fps with H-4350 which is the "best" powder for that application. H-4831SC is actually a slow burning powder for use in a Rem .260. Chances are that you are going to end up running out of case capacity trying to reach those velocities with H-4831SC.

 

[LRShooter101]

No one thinks the magnetospeed might be causing this?

Very good catch, and a very good possibility! You should never shoot groups with a Magnetospeed on your barrel!!! Per my previous comments on barrel harmonics/whip, having the weight of a Magnetospeed on the end of the barrel will only amplify those issues. I only use a Magnetospeed on a barrel for velocity verification, but never when I am evaluating groups. Definitely worth rechecking the groups without it!

 

[MarkyMark007]

That’s good to know. So always use a 5-shot group to find the good load? I’m following the OCW load development and it recommends a minimum of three shots, but encourages 4 shots for the flyer. Would love to hear from someone who’s done this.

you will always have ''flayers'' because you have too high expectation for accuracy of your tikka.
you think because you shot the same bullet through the same hole, that you will have this accuracy for all 3, 5, 10 or 20 shots... and now you expect that your gun is 0.2moa rifle... for infinite number of shots.
even the best benchrest shooters doesnt have this kind of accuracy, and now you expect this from your hunting tikka.

 

[Chris1972]

It appears someone needs to read the entire thread. It doesn’t appear to be a stock T3 Lite and he should expect more than he is getting from what he has.

 

[lash]

No one thinks the magnetospeed might be causing this?

No.

 

[lash]

Very good catch, and a very good possibility! You should never shoot groups with a Magnetospeed on your barrel!!! Per my previous comments on barrel harmonics/whip, having the weight of a Magnetospeed on the end of the barrel will only amplify those issues. I only use a Magnetospeed on a barrel for velocity verification, but never when I am evaluating groups. Definitely worth rechecking the groups without it!

I’ve shot numerous (hundreds) 5-shot groups with the magnetospeed on, with groups that are fine. On some barrels, it will slightly displace the point of impact, but if it’s affecting ES/SD, there might be some else going on.

That said, I got a deal on a Garmin that even this cheap MFer couldn’t pass up and have never looked back.

 

[LRShooter101]

I’ve shot numerous (hundreds) 5-shot groups with the magnetospeed on, with groups that are fine. On some barrels, it will slightly displace the point of impact, but if it’s affecting ES/SD, there might be some else going on.

That said, I got a deal on a Garmin that even this cheap MFer couldn’t pass up and have never looked back.

Your Barrel vs. Others - I am obviously not sure what barrel profile you are using, but he is using a Light Palma. If you are using a heavy profile barrel vs. a light profile barrel, it would not be an apples to oranges comparison.
Changing Barrel Behavior - Adding more weight to the end of light profile barrel can change the harmonics & whip, as you pointed out by acknowledging the POI shift when you remove it. I was always more worried about a POI shift using a Magnetospeed, not so much that it would change the size of a group, however I was also shooting a much heavier barrel profile.

I would not place a high level of confidence in the Magnetospeed being the primary factor behind the 3rd shot flyer, however if you are trying to solve that problem, it is another variable that you can remove from the equation to try and get at the root cause.

In terms of your comment about the Garmin, that is the best money that any shooter will ever spend! After 30+ years of shooting, that has totally changed the game for me!!!

 

[Rommel Garcia]

Thank you everyone for the feedback. Based on your responses, it looks like Magnetospeed does not affect grouping but POI. My barrel is Light Palma which should be able to take 5 string shots. The gust wind reached 12 MPH but it was 100 hard shot so that should NOT affect grouping. Based on that, looks like it’s me that’s causing the bad grouping. I’ll have to take more time in between shots and shoot my best. It could also be the load but that could be secondary.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Light Palma barrels get used for 17-shot strings in Palma, Bisley and high-power competitions.

Just saying...

 

[Rommel Garcia]

Light Palma barrels get used for 17-shot strings in Palma, Bisley and high-power competitions.

Just saying...

Good to know. That’s awesome.