Rifle Scopes Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes

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wjm308

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Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
09/02/2016 Last edited 01/05/2017 by wjm308
(11 votes)

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Not that this would be a "rule" but more a "guideline" for members when they'd like to ask about what scope is best, I thought it might be good to put forth some bullet points on information that would help others better answer the question.

Help us Help You

Because there are so many different scopes, and each year manufacturers come out with new models and upgrades to existing models, the options are in constant flux, so I understand why we might get similar questions from different folks throughout the year (this community has been great to share advice and experience to help others make those decisions). But when a question is asked that simply states, "I have a 308 and want to know the best scope for it" well, you're going to get a hundred responses that may not fit your specific criteria. So in order for the SH community to better help you, may I be so bold as to make some suggestion for when you are asking the community about what kind of scope would be best for you.

Please consider including the following when asking the SH community what scope we'd recommend for you:

• What is the platform for the scope? (Examples: Rifle (Bolt or Semi-Auto), Pistol (Semi-Auto or Revolver)
• What cartridge are you shooting? (Examples: 22LR, 223, 308, 338 Lapua, etc.)
• What is your intended use for the scope? (Examples: PRS, Benchrest, Hunting, Target, Steel, etc. or any combination thereof)
• What type of conditions will you typically shoot in? (Examples: Daylight, Lowlight, Nighttime, etc. or any combination thereof)
• What are the typical distances you intend to shoot? (Examples: 1000+ yds, 600-1,000 yds, 300-600 yds, 100-300 yds, under 100 yds)
• Are there any specific specifications you would like? (Examples: FFP/SFP, 30mm tube, 50mm objective, focus below 50 yds, low turrets, mil or moa, weight, etc.)
• What is the price range you can afford? (Examples: Under $500, $500-$1000, $1000-$1500, etc.)

And then obviously any other input you would like to provide, but having the above information from the get go will help the community understand more specifically your needs and in return you will receive much better answers sooner.

This is by no means an exhaustive list and I'm sure there are some things I missed so please feel free to reply and add to this. Thank you.

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Legend

Often times we get carried away with acronyms and end up not understanding what someone is referring to, so here is a quick list of rifle scope acronyms to help out (I'm certain I have missed some so please feel free to respond and I'll add to the list):

• Mil/Mrad = Milradian (1/1000th of 3600 inches. Equal to 3.6 inches at 100 yards, 1 mil is a different size at different distances, 36" at 1,000 yards is also 1 mil)
• MOA = Minute Of Angle (1/60th of a degree. 1 MOA is about 1" per 100 yards. (actually 1.047") 1 MOA is a different size at different distances, 10.47" at 1,000 yards is still just 1 MOA)
• FFP = First Focal Plane (the reticle grows or shrinks in size relative to the magnification of the scope so that a mil or moa is accurate at any given magnification)
• SFP = Second Focal Plane (the reticle stays the same size regardless of magnification so that a mil or moa is only accurate at a specific magnification)
• IQ = Image Quality (often referring to how good the glass is)
• FOV = Field Of View (refers to how wide the image is at bottom and top magnifications measured at 100 yards or meters)
• POI = Point Of Impact (where the bullet strikes the target)
• POA = Point Of Aim (where the sight or reticle is aimed)
• CCW/CW = Counter Clockwise/Clockwise (referring to the direction the turret travels to move the POA up, most scopes in the USA are CCW while most in Europe are CW)
• CA = Chromatic Aberration (also referred to as color fringing or just fringing, this is the phenomenon of different color shifts that are typically seen on edges of high contrast)
• HD = High Density (refers to the type of glass used)
• ED = Extra-low Dispersion (refers to the type of glass used)
• RTZ = Return to Zero (the ability of the scope to return to zero after going through the full range of turret travel)
• LT = Locking Turrets (the ability to lock the turret position and protect against accidental movement)
• CT = Capped Turrets (refers to caps that screw on over the turret for protection - typically found on windage)
• DT/ST = Double Turn/Single Turn (the limit of how many full revolutions the elevation turret can turn)
• ZS/CS = Zero Stop (a locking mechanism that restricts the elevation turret from being turned past 0 when dialing back down - some mfr's allow a few clicks past 0)
• LP = Illuminated and Parallax (typical of Schmidt & Bender to designate an illuminated reticle and parallax control)
• MTC = More Tactical Clicks (typical of Schmidt & Bender for turrets that have a stronger detent every 1 mil of revolution)
• LSW = Left Side Windage (windage turret is located on the left side of the scope)

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lashlaroe

X52 MONTHS
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Re: How to ask the community about rifle scopes
09/02/2016

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Good public service announcement.

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morganlamprechtXFirst Sergeant
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Re: How to ask the community about rifle scopes
09/02/2016

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good list

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NateVAX17 MONTHS
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Re: Tips on asking advice about rifle scopes
09/02/2016

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Solid post. It's a good format for requests.

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fursniper

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Re: Tips on asking advice about rifle scopes
09/02/2016 Last edited 09/02/2016 by fursniper

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Great post and something that's been needed! I would only add that indicating ones desire for 1st or 2nd focal plane when inquiring for input would really help responders as well (might involve explaining what the differences are as well in some cases).

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MStew308XSergeant
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Re: Tips on asking advice about rifle scopes
09/02/2016

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Someone make this a sticky immediately! Great post.

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wjm308

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Re: Tips on asking advice about rifle scopes
09/02/2016
(1 vote)

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fursniper wrote:
Great post and something that's been needed! I would only add that indicating ones desire for 1st or 2nd focal plane when inquiring for input would really help responders as well (might involve explaining what the differences are as well in some cases).​

Thank you fur, I have updated the post to include FFP/SFP as well as provided a new Legend to help out with acronyms.

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surfingsk8rX9 MONTHS
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Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
09/04/2016

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Your definition of a milradian is incorrect partially. A milradian is 1/1000 of a radian. A radian is a unit of measure for angles that is based on the radius of a circle being equal to the distance around the circumference of that circle to meet the angle. This can be represented in degrees as 180/Pi (Pi = 3.14 for short). This will be equal to 1 radian no matter the radius as it is independent of the size and is an angular equivalency. 180/Pi = roughly 57.3 degrees so 1 milradian = .0573 degrees which is approximately 1/17.45 of a degree. The above is why at 100 yards (3600 inches) 1 mil is 3.6 inches (3600 / 1000 = 3.6). Just wanted to clarify that as the above saying a milradian is 1/6400 of a degree is not correct and in general most people really don't understand it and most get into an arguement about metric vs non metric, which it is really neither it is a metric base representation of a non metric unit of measure for arc angle.

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wjm308

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
09/04/2016

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Thank you surf, my bad, that is what I get for being lazy and just grabbing some info quickly, I have updated my post and also included a link to Franks great article on mil vs moa which is what I should have used to begin with.

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sirhrmechanic

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Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
09/04/2016

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Well done, sir!

A similar 'tutorial' in the Bolt Action and Semi-Auto rifles areas would also be a fantastic guide for new members.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

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JohnWebbXPrivate
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Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
09/28/2016
(1 vote)

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I found a really good video for that yesterday by a guy named Ryan Glecker( think that’s right). Do a search for “scope basics/ tracking your scope”

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6fiveN7XPrivate
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Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
09/29/2016

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Good list! Just one point of note, the "HD" definition isn't completely correct. People often refer to it as "high definition" but it really stands for "high density," describing optics with high density, low dispersion lenses that are matched or "apochromatically-corrected" to reduce chromatic aberrations. Thanks for a good write up!

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MrShotgunXPrivate
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Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
10/21/2016

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Finally! Great list! It looks like the full list of abbreviations, isn't it?

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BavariaXOberleutnant
Rating: 3.5/5 this site
2905 posts this site
Re: Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes
12/21/2016
(2 votes)

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JohnWebb wrote:
I found a really good video for that yesterday by a guy named Ryan Glecker( think that’s right). Do a search for “scope basics/ tracking your scope”​

He has a book called The Long Range Shooting Handbook that is very helpful for people getting into distance shooting you should check out.

In the next edition of the book, I'm actually cited.

 

[2c1fr]

Lots of good info in here

 

[dholla]

Great bit of info! Thank you.

 

[Raptor005]

I wish I had this when buying my scope! Fortunately, I got ended up with a scope I needed, it just took me a bit longer and a lot of unguided research to get there.

 

[Drew9299]

Well said

 

[JePhyllis]

Very useful references for my next optic selection!

 

[JePhyllis]

Nice guidence~! Thanks

 

[Grease]

Thanks for the very useful information

 

[Dr59860]

Good information. Budget should be your primary driver. We don't emphasize fiscal responsibility like we should.

 

[mjsand44]

Thanks for the help to clarify my question. It will be on a bolt action 6.5 CM. LE competition are usually under 600 yards, however I would like to hit a few prs style competitions. There are only a few local prs style matches in my area, but they may stretch to just over 1000. Moving stages have been 500 and in. Most targets will focus on crappy firing position positions 600 and in. I would like to use the LE competitions to help learn and train for the prs style competitions. I would like to purchase the FFP NF ATCAR; I am just not sure if the 7-35 power range would be difficult to use the reticle a lower powers. I was looking the TREMOR 3 and was concerned that something that busy would be unusable until it hit 15 – 20 power, due to the scale of the reticle as it moves through the magnification range. I use the wide field of view when I shoot movers or have several targets in a tight time line and cannot dial. Does the 7-35 reticle look like a thumb print at 10-12 power, or is clear enough that you can make accurate hold overs and leads. My .308 has a NF SFP ATCAR on it and it sucks to always have to do math on the fly and make sure I am truly on half power. (I work in LE for a reason). My question relates to reticle usability throughout the mag ranges as apposed to what scope is the most awesome. I see the top shooters in LE competitions (who get to pick their gear) are running 5-25 or 3-27 splitting the difference in power, travel, and field of view. (Maybe that should answer my question). However, the 7-35 has not been around long enough to know if it is good to go for my intended purpose or if it is more of an elr scope. I am in Canada and there is not a local shop I can check them out at. Thanks for your patience with my questioning. I have found lots of info on the difference between scopes, power range glass quality, but very little the reticle usability at lower powers.

 

[_Windrider_]

Thanks for the help to clarify my question. It will be on a bolt action 6.5 CM. LE competition are usually under 600 yards, however I would like to hit a few prs style competitions. There are only a few local prs style matches in my area, but they may stretch to just over 1000. Moving stages have been 500 and in. Most targets will focus on crappy firing position positions 600 and in. I would like to use the LE competitions to help learn and train for the prs style competitions. I would like to purchase the FFP NF ATCAR; I am just not sure if the 7-35 power range would be difficult to use the reticle a lower powers. I was looking the TREMOR 3 and was concerned that something that busy would be unusable until it hit 15 – 20 power, due to the scale of the reticle as it moves through the magnification range. I use the wide field of view when I shoot movers or have several targets in a tight time line and cannot dial. Does the 7-35 reticle look like a thumb print at 10-12 power, or is clear enough that you can make accurate hold overs and leads. My .308 has a NF SFP ATCAR on it and it sucks to always have to do math on the fly and make sure I am truly on half power. (I work in LE for a reason). My question relates to reticle usability throughout the mag ranges as apposed to what scope is the most awesome. I see the top shooters in LE competitions (who get to pick their gear) are running 5-25 or 3-27 splitting the difference in power, travel, and field of view. (Maybe that should answer my question). However, the 7-35 has not been around long enough to know if it is good to go for my intended purpose or if it is more of an elr scope. I am in Canada and there is not a local shop I can check them out at. Thanks for your patience with my questioning. I have found lots of info on the difference between scopes, power range glass quality, but very little the reticle usability at lower powers.

At 7 power the trmr3 is very useable. I have an H59 in a 3.5-21 and I can use it at 3.5. Of course I’m not holding over at that power at longer ranges. I used to really like the Horus Christmas tree reticle (58, 59; trmr) but I find myself moving away from them now, except on my 308. Just food for thought. NF makes some good reticles so it might be worth looking into the MIL-C or the MIL-R instead in the 7-35.

I suggest reading this:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...nett-is-a-witch-doctor-discuss.6303791/page-2

 

[mjsand44]

At what power are you able to start using the reticle?

 

[_Windrider_]

At what power are you able to start using the reticle?

It can be used at any power. For me, and this is subjective, at around 10 is where I find it most useful. I can see a good amount of the tree at this power. But that only works on larger targets. If I was shooting a coke can, I would power up for a more refined hold.

 

[mjsand44]

Thank you. Your response is very helpful.

 

[TEVYA]

Great article by WJM 308. I have been dealing with the confusion of MOA/MILLS for a long time. It was easy to understand the #s the way
it was presented. SH is a wonderful forum to have. Cant thank you enough.

 

[RickyR]

This looks like the place to be, sorry guys I've been mostly a hand gun guy and am looking into trying my hand at shooting further than 200 yards without dropping a lot of funds into a hobby in case it doesn't wind up being my cup of tea. Using the information above.

I'm going to use a rifle I already have , semiauto, 16'' barrel, with 1-7 twist, 223 caliber. If things go well I be looking into something better but for now I'll give this a shot.

I would like to use it for varmint hunting, target, and bench rest shooting.

I would be happy if I could hit consistently to 600 yards with the 223, If the rifle and scope are capable I'll work on the shooter.

It sounds like a first focal place would be a more accurate option.

If such a optic could be found for $800 or less would be great there are a lot of opinions of what is good and not depending on the forum. I figure you guys would probably know more that most.

I guess I should mention the rifle has (I'm ashamed to say from what I've read on here) a Vortex Crossfire 2, 2-7x32 on it now.

Thanks for any help if you could steer me to a couple candidates.

 

[Glassaholic]

Great article by WJM 308. I have been dealing with the confusion of MOA/MILLS for a long time. It was easy to understand the #s the way
it was presented. SH is a wonderful forum to have. Cant thank you enough.

Glad to help Tevya, I was confused about MOA vs Mil for a long time because I kept making the mistake it was linear like inches and centimeters and while these can align, the fact is that both MOA and Mil are angular measures and will grow the further out you go, hence 1 mil being 3.60" at 100 yards but 36" at 1000 yards and 62" at 2000 yards, etc. but all are still just 1 mil. Same with MOA, 1.047" at 100, 10.47" at 1000 and 20.94" at 2000, are all just 1 MOA. Early on, when shooting long distance I used to look at the splash through my SFP duplex scope and guess at how far low/high and left/right the POI was of the bullet splash based on the distance of the target; now with FFP mil/moa reticles you can simply look through with your scope and see very quickly - example: you're .4 mil low and .2 mil left of target, it doesn't matter how far or close the target is because the adjustment is based on the mil/moa values, so if the target is at 350 yards or 568 yards it doesn't matter, the mil/moa value is still the same as long as it was called with a FFP reticle.

 

[Glassaholic]

This looks like the place to be, sorry guys I've been mostly a hand gun guy and am looking into trying my hand at shooting further than 200 yards without dropping a lot of funds into a hobby in case it doesn't wind up being my cup of tea. Using the information above.

I'm going to use a rifle I already have , semiauto, 16'' barrel, with 1-7 twist, 223 caliber. If things go well I be looking into something better but for now I'll give this a shot.

I would like to use it for varmint hunting, target, and bench rest shooting.

I would be happy if I could hit consistently to 600 yards with the 223, If the rifle and scope are capable I'll work on the shooter.

It sounds like a first focal place would be a more accurate option.

If such a optic could be found for $800 or less would be great there are a lot of opinions of what is good and not depending on the forum. I figure you guys would probably know more that most.

I guess I should mention the rifle has (I'm ashamed to say from what I've read on here) a Vortex Crossfire 2, 2-7x32 on it now.

Thanks for any help if you could steer me to a couple candidates.

Welcome to the Hide Ricky. This is the place to be but you would benefit from starting a new thread and asking your question there, you posted this off one of the sticky's in the forum and not a whole lot of people will look here.

 

[Rick7353]

Very well laid out.

 

[paparockcal]

Before Nightforce I was a Leupold Tactical scope guy. I really like the Nightforce Tactical long-range scopes with illuminated reticules. Pick the one you use the best. To each their own. You can't hit what you can't see. Check out the Nightforce 7-35x56 ATACR F1 MOAR Zstop DigIllum. It is just what I like but it may not suit you; it is expensive. I can't afford one yet but I do have expensive tastes.

I really want a chasis 6.5 Creedmoor with an illuminated Nightforce scope so bad I can taste it. Yotes beware when I get it. Check out the video on youtube for the Nightforce 7-35x56 ATACR F1 MOAR Zstop DigIllum scope.

 

[strk3]

6.5 creed with tikka on a 24 inch barrel shooting 500 to a 1000yds in southwest ms -temps in the 90's same one the hum able to shoot 3 to 5 inch groups with stock 140 eld match ammo from hornady using the tango 6 mrad dev-l 0.1 - just can NOT say enough to explain how good this glass is - have shot kahles 624i and it also is a great piece!! my tango is a 5-30 x56 level plex anti-cant system-- try for your self and just see what works - i do this for FUN and only FUN

 

[Sinocopa]

Thanks for the great list! I'm somewhat new to long range shooting and this is extremely helpful!

 

[Glassaholic]

Thanks for the great list! I'm somewhat new to long range shooting and this is extremely helpful!

My pleasure, glad it's helping folks out, for years I spent who knows how long looking up all the acronym's and such, thought it might be nice to have everything in one place

 

[OldArcher]

If you have money of course I recommend to buy thermal scope. Personally, I have got thermal night vision by ATN (https://www.atncorp.com/thermal-scope-thor-hd). You can easily switch from a daytime scope to thermal imaging. It's the best device I've ever owned.

Indeed. Options are good...

 

[weldermark]

Great info!!

 

[Aggie]

I used thermal sights in tanks. The difference between thermal sights & other military night visision gear was awesome. On my small goat ranch in Central Texas, I would love to have a thermal scope.

However my budget doesn’t agree.

I know enough about optics that you pay for what you get.

 

[Cmkaco]

Thanks for posting this. Very helpful for all us noobies out there!

 

[EddieG]

well now, I'm feeling like this information is directed to me. I am now at the end of my rifle build. I have a bolt action 260 remington. The rifle was built with PRS in mind. I will also shoot paper for fun . I am interested in FFP because iv been told that was he best. I would hope to compete in daytime and good weather but ya never know about that. Im guessing at least 25 to 30 power , even though most people shoot PRS at 18 power ( or so i have been told) . Ive heard German glass is the best, but there is great glass from Japan and the Philippines . I have always been a fan of Night Force, Burris and now Kahles is a scope people are using around my parts. Im guessing the larger the scope tube the better the components . The money id like to spend is under 2000. I am up to buying used as long as they are in good shape and working properly.

 

[JayseM_SportOptics]

Great info. It's tough to think that a scope that's great for hunting isn't good for PRS or target shooting and vise versa. There's some good options out there that are serviceable for both but it's certainly a "jack of all trades, master of none" type situation. Harsh truth of it is, if you want something that's really good for both, you're going to need multiple scopes.

 

[Aggie]

This is correct but other issues or questions can come up about a specific scope and/or mount. User comments with this are very useful prior to purchase.

To me a scope and mount are a part of the rifle “system”. As such users with the same rifle can bring amazing LESSONS LEARNED to those inquiring.

Patience and mentoring goes far and flaming someone’s questions serves no useful purpose here or for the user.

 

[WVlongranger]

Thank you

 

[Aggie]

For some of us, the family budget is a first priority.

 

[trappertut]

Hey why dont you check out the Dscovery scopes from optics plus.Damn tings are almost in destructible. i have 5 of them glass is as Good as any vortex scope i have ever owned at half the price.Once zeroed in you are all done unless you move things.First f pl or 2nd fp .Would not buy them fm amazon though they wont replace hem if there is a prob.Looking at 150 --350$$ check them out on utube cyclops reviews.Yeai know someone gonna say chinese junk well just thnk about this china makes lenses for a lot of tope end scopes ncluding vortex--gt

 

[ThreeBravo]

Great read, thanks!

 

[Rhno-1]

Great discussion/write-up--especially the early clarification of milradian--have to admit it made my head hurt for a bit, before it began to sink in... lol.

 

[JCHayes]

Good write up, thanks for the info.

 

[1moaoff]

Hey why dont you check out the Dscovery scopes from optics plus.Damn tings are almost in destructible. i have 5 of them glass is as Good as any vortex scope i have ever owned at half the price.Once zeroed in you are all done unless you move things.First f pl or 2nd fp .Would not buy them fm amazon though they wont replace hem if there is a prob.Looking at 150 --350$$ check them out on utube cyclops reviews.Yeai know someone gonna say chinese junk well just thnk about this china makes lenses for a lot of tope end scopes ncluding vortex--gt

Really.....

 

[BlazinPond]

Great stuff to read before i post....since i'm a newbie.

 

[hindmarsh]

Great thread. Usually when I ask a dumb or ambiguous question it's because I don't know enough to ask a good question. It's all in the application details, details, details...but if you don't know what you don't know you gotta start somewhere.

 

[Morlox]

Great information on this site! I truly appreciate the time and effort that you put in to the breakdown of terms that are familiar and those that are not so familiar. My question is: I am looking at the NightForce NX8 FFP 2.5-20 x 50. I will be using it on a Daniel Defense DD5V4 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Most of my shooting will be out to 500 meters as our range does not have the option of shooting any further. Any comments or suggestions would be deeply appreciated. I am currently running a Vortex Viper PST 4-16 FFP

Ron

 

[Bureaucrats and Devilrats]

Hey this is my first post so yeah Im probably not posting in the right spot but I was looking for some help buying a scope under $500 for my Howa 1500 LA .223 on an MDT Lss Gen 2
Mostly for hunting at around 2-400 yards dawn and dusk ,Ive also ordered a 6.5 Creedmore with a similar chassis so gonna need a scope for that too.
Any help much appreciated.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Hey this is my first post so yeah Im probably not posting in the right spot but I was looking for some help buying a scope under $500 for my Howa 1500 LA .223 on an MDT Lss Gen 2
Mostly for hunting at around 2-400 yards dawn and dusk ,Ive also ordered a 6.5 Creedmore with a similar chassis so gonna need a scope for that too.
Any help much appreciated.

If you have a few minutes please give us a call to discuss different options. Glad to assist

 

[Glassaholic]

Great information on this site! I truly appreciate the time and effort that you put in to the breakdown of terms that are familiar and those that are not so familiar. My question is: I am looking at the NightForce NX8 FFP 2.5-20 x 50. I will be using it on a Daniel Defense DD5V4 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Most of my shooting will be out to 500 meters as our range does not have the option of shooting any further. Any comments or suggestions would be deeply appreciated. I am currently running a Vortex Viper PST 4-16 FFP

Ron

I would suggest starting a new thread instead of in this sticky, you'll get a lot more response. I am not a big fan of the NF NX8 2.5-20 but it is a definite improvement over the PST 4-16.

 

[Morlox]

I would suggest starting a new thread instead of in this sticky, you'll get a lot more response. I am not a big fan of the NF NX8 2.5-20 but it is a definite improvement over the PST 4-16.

Thank you sir!

 

[Bureaucrats and Devilrats]

If you have a few minutes please give us a call to discuss different options. Glad to assist

Thanks a heep mate but unfortunately Im in Australia so calling might be a little hard but I really do appreciate the reply very nice of you to help.
Thanks again mate.

 

[t_swills]

First off, i’ll restate what so many others have, this is a great post with a lot of information I feel like everyone could stand to refresh.
I’m beginning to get in to precision shooting and I’d appreciate some quick advice/opinions on optic selection. Application: 20” .308, between 300-500 yards regularly, occasionally out to 800. Daylight to dusk, with about a $1400 budget. Coming from a hunting background.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Glassaholic]

First off, i’ll restate what so many others have, this is a great post with a lot of information I feel like everyone could stand to refresh.
I’m beginning to get in to precision shooting and I’d appreciate some quick advice/opinions on optic selection. Application: 20” .308, between 300-500 yards regularly, occasionally out to 800. Daylight to dusk, with about a $1400 budget. Coming from a hunting background.
Thanks in advance.

Better off to post in the optics forum, this thread is a sticky and meant for info.

 

[ck1a]

Thanks. I am currently "scope hunting", and there is some very good advice here.

 

[Jonn44]

Great info; I recently used it to determine a good checklist for things to look for and compare while glass shopping.

 

[DrBoz]

Great info!