Tips for loading PVA solids.

[Wisconsinner]

Good evening hide,

I've been struggling trying to find a good load with the 120gr seneca bullets from PVA. I heard that solids are a different kind animal and like a lot of jump to the lands. My problem is seating the boat tail in the case deeper. How deep is too deep? I have always tried keeping the bearing surface above the neck/shoulder junction to avoid donuts, and not impede on case capacity, but these bullets are long! If anyone has any ideas I would appreciate it!

 

[Newbie2020]

Why would solids like more jump? Just curious. I thought jump was to time bullet exit with barrel harmonics.

 

[Wisconsinner]

That was my thought as well. There is a post on accurate shooter, where a guy was talking about it.. Something about getting the bullets up to speed before entering the rifling.

 

[Newbie2020]

So since they’re lighter at a given bullet length maybe less jump?

 

[Wisconsinner]

That would be ideal, I just haven't had luck with it yet..

 

[FatBatman]

Few questions
1. What chambering
2. Are you restricted by mag length or will it be single fed
3. Is the barrel clean? my experience with solids is that they do not like a barrel that has had a traditional bullet fired down the tube unless it is clean
4. What is the twist rate of your barrel
5. What velocity are you achieving
6. What is your expectation for accuracy

 

[Newbie2020]

Once again, #3 makes no logical sense to me. Copper is copper and carbon is carbon. There shouldn’t be any lead fouling or something went horribly wrong. I don’t understand.

 

[sheepdog697]

Following

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Been dealing with monos since around 1998 and have never heard of getting them up to speed before rifling as reason for long jumps, lol.

Here is first shots of load development for 300NM using 212gr Seneca...

Loaded 40 off..

Loaded 20 off..

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Wisconsinner]

Few questions
1. What chambering
2. Are you restricted by mag length or will it be single fed
3. Is the barrel clean? my experience with solids is that they do not like a barrel that has had a traditional bullet fired down the tube unless it is clean
4. What is the twist rate of your barrel
5. What velocity are you achieving
6. What is your expectation for accuracy

1. Chambered in .25 Creedmoor using the blackjack spec reamer. I believe the fb is .115
2.I don't care about magazines length.
3. Barrel has minimal fouling cleaned after the first 100 rounds. Right about 175 total on the barrel.
4. Twist rate is 1:7 I think they recommend 1:7.25
5. I found a good node(so far) at 2975. I haven't checked it again since the first 100 rds.
6. If I could at least get sub moa I'd take it lol.

 

[Wisconsinner]

Hi,

Been dealing with monos since around 1998 and have never heard of getting them up to speed before rifling as reason for long jumps, lol.

Here is first shots of load development for 300NM using 212gr Seneca...

Loaded 40 off..
View attachment 7628856

Loaded 20 off..
View attachment 7628858

Sincerely,
Theis

The first bullets I bought have an alignment ring machined ahead of the bearing surface. The second ones I ordered, I think are an updated design. Are you measuring jump from the alignment ring, or bearing surface?

 

[Wisconsinner]

I used to run the 122 Cayuga in my saum. They shot very well in many jumps. The best thing to do is contact Josh @ pva, get the machined dimensions from him. The tip to drive band is important. The creed case being 1.91 plus your freebore dimension plus roughly 20k for lead angle, should be very close to lands w/ drive band. These bullets are extremely uniform so coal is fine for measuring, and truthly the only way since the drive band is under gauge to bore diameter. Take the tip to drive band dimension, add that to your case length plus leads and that's essentially coal w/ zero freebore. Add in your chambers freebore dimension plus leade and that should have you very close to touch with the band.

Great explanation, I'm going to screen shot this for quick reference. Lol. The "drive band" was what was messing with me the most. When doing a traditional seating depth test I could definitely tell the band was engaging the rifling when I would close the bolt. The best groups so far have been seated pretty deep, so this should help with my approximate jump.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I've run the 122 Cayuga in 6,5CM and the 95 Senecas in 6BRA. Both grouped well from 20k to 45k off for me - I think I run the 6,5s at 25 and the 6s at 45 off.

I wouldn't be afraid to run more jump if you need to. I also haven't seen any effects switching between the PVA solids and jacketed, with just a normal clean in between.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The first bullets I bought have an alignment ring machined ahead of the bearing surface. The second ones I ordered, I think are an updated design. Are you measuring jump from the alignment ring, or bearing surface? View attachment 7629119

Hornady tool and then the 30 cal insert and attachment from SAC.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, remember, jump is fairly relative.

We don’t actually care if it’s exactly .020 or .023 or whatever from the rifling.

We just get a rough idea with whatever method (Wheeler, hornady tool, etc) as a starting point and just increase the seating depth until we find an area that’s optimal or we find acceptable.

There’s no vudoo to this stuff. As long as bullet is stable in flight, (and there’s nothing wrong with the rifle) just keep incrementally increasing the seating depth.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Just run a seating depth test just like you would jacketed bullets or load them to mag length and use a barrel tuner. Either will yield the results you want.

 

[408w]

I have briefly tried these and have not given them a fair shake yet but had poor results and haven't gotten back around to giving them another shot. Question for you guys... when measuring using the hornady tool are you pushing the bullet in until you feel a very slight stop/drag? I believe this is where the pilot band is hitting the lands. You can very easily push past this point and the bullet ends up very long (coal) if you stop like you do for a traditional bullet. Josh mentioned it here (in 3rd paragraph down under load development)

FAQ's for Solid Bullets

patriotvalleyarms.com

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Youre better off using OAL instead of BTO. Keep in mind that these bullets are machined. They will have way less variance than jacketed bullets.

 

[Schw15]

I shot a few of these. Lacking speed for what i wanted but i found about .20 to .40 off was giving me the best results. I shot a decent 5 shot group. The other groups were 2 touching 1 off. Just make sure your not pushing the drive band past lands very easy to do so. I just load and test the solids like any other bullet.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Yes the short bearing surface makes the bullets "slicker" which reduces pressure buildup in which makes them seem slower than normal when compared to jacketed bullets....but you can easily make the speed back up with increasing powder charge and/or going to slightly faster burn rate powder.

Small bearing surface monos are normally treated (in regards to loads vs velocity) as HBN coated bullets...

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Wisconsinner]

I shot a few of these. Lacking speed for what i wanted but i found about .20 to .40 off was giving me the best results. I shot a decent 5 shot group. The other groups were 2 touching 1 off. Just make sure your not pushing the drive band past lands very easy to do so. I just load and test the solids like any other bullet.

I thought I had these dialed in from a 100 yard seating depth test. I took them out to 600 last weekend and found out it was a fluke.

 

[NamibHunter]

Any update on the best load development approach for these high BC Seneca bullets? Getting ready to try them soon.

 

[Dogtown]

I’ve had a delay on my end, but am close to finalizing a load using the 212s in a .300NM using 88.5gr of N570 N565 giving me 3175fps out of a 28” 1:8 barrel. COAL is naturally long at approx 3.842” and don‘t seem to mind jumping quite a bit. I’ll finally get to test them at distance later this month.

Edit: my mistake, it's using N565

 

[NamibHunter]

I’ve had a delay on my end, but am close to finalizing a load using the 212s in a .300NM using 88.5gr of N570 giving me 3175fps out of a 28” 1:8 barrel. COAL is naturally long at approx 3.842” and don‘t seem to mind jumping quite a bit. I’ll finally get to test them at distance later this month.

That is an impressive speed for such a long high BC bullet. Supersonic at sea level out to almost 2,400 yards!

 

[NamibHunter]

My rough calcs indicate that the 212 Seneca and 241 Seneca will both go subsonic between 2,300 and 2,400 yards, assuming an (estimated) 200 fps speed difference? Is there a major benefit in shooting the 241 bullet, over the 212 gn projectile?

Should i assume a bigger speed delta for a 300 WSM?

How much of a speed difference do you expect to get for a Norma Mag?

 

[Dogtown]

I ran the numbers on the 241 at 3000fps (in another thread in Beyond 1000) and was looking at closer to 2800 yards (aka .375CT territory).

Post in thread 'PVA 212 Seneca'
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/pva-212-seneca.7018680/post-9574363

 

[Dogtown]

FYI, I updated my load - forgot that it was N565 and not N570.

 

[brianf]

FYI, I updated my load - forgot that it was N565 and not N570.

Any reason?
565 is a little faster right ?

 

[Dogtown]

Yeah, I use N570 for 220-230 Bergers and in most of my .338 loads, but while working up this 212 seneca load, N565 was more optimized for my rifle. You can still get good results with N570 and likely better velocities with a longer barrel (> 32"), but with my combo N565 is a little bit more efficient and I use less of my already scarce selection of N570. I think the new N568 may be the sweet spot for this combination and plan to try it when it becomes available later this year.

 

[357Max]

@Wisconsinner - Just shot first loads of 25 Creedmoor 120 Seneca's today.

Tika T3 in a KRG Xray with a 24" light Palma PVA 7.5 T Black Jack Reamer.
Wasn't sure how well it would stabilize since per PVA the 120's require a 7.25T

Seneca's worked pretty well. Wish I could say the same for the new 135 Berger's.

The Tika has a spring ejector button so I make mock up brass by milling a slot for the ejector plunger. 1pc for each new bullet.
The ejector button slot allows the bolt to rotate closed without any interference from the ejector button & doesn't try to turn the bullet.
This works great for AR's also.
I then disengage the striker assembly so I can sneak up on the lands by feel with my seating die. Neck tension is same as I'll be loading.
Once these mock ups are made I can easily use them to set up dies in the future. Really comes in handy with Short action customs multi cal seater for example.

The 120 Seneca drive band touched @ 2.924 COAL

Virgin Alpha 25 Creedmoor brass. Prep was just .256 mandrel & chamfer.
CCI #41 primers
N555
44.6gr = 2949 avg & SD 6.1 COAL 2.925
45gr = 2961 avg & SD 12.2 COAL 2.925
45.4gr = 2994 avg & SD 9.6 COAL 2.925 no pressure signs

45.4gr = COAL 2.915

left target was 45gr loaded 2.925 5 shots with magneto speed on. Right target was 5 shots, 45.4gr, @ 2.915 COAL without magneto speed.

I'll load some more in the fire formed brass & try it at distance.
Also going to give 6.5 StaBall a try.

 

[Wisconsinner]

@Wisconsinner - Just shot first loads of 25 Creedmoor 120 Seneca's today.

Tika T3 in a KRG Xray with a 24" light Palma PVA 7.5 T Black Jack Reamer.
Wasn't sure how well it would stabilize since per PVA the 120's require a 7.25T

Seneca's worked pretty well. Wish I could say the same for the new 135 Berger's.

The Tika has a spring ejector button so I make mock up brass by milling a slot for the ejector plunger. 1pc for each new bullet.
The ejector button slot allows the bolt to rotate closed without any interference from the ejector button & doesn't try to turn the bullet.
This works great for AR's also.
I then disengage the striker assembly so I can sneak up on the lands by feel with my seating die. Neck tension is same as I'll be loading.
Once these mock ups are made I can easily use them to set up dies in the future. Really comes in handy with Short action customs multi cal seater for example.

View attachment 7689627

The 120 Seneca drive band touched @ 2.924 COAL

Virgin Alpha 25 Creedmoor brass. Prep was just .256 mandrel & chamfer.
CCI #41 primers
N555
44.6gr = 2949 avg & SD 6.1 COAL 2.925
45gr = 2961 avg & SD 12.2 COAL 2.925
45.4gr = 2994 avg & SD 9.6 COAL 2.925 no pressure signs

45.4gr = COAL 2.915

left target was 45gr loaded 2.925 5 shots with magneto speed on. Right target was 5 shots, 45.4gr, @ 2.915 COAL without magneto speed.

I'll load some more in the fire formed brass & try it at distance.
Also going to give 6.5 StaBall a try.

View attachment 7689633

Thanks pal! I like your idea with the modified case eliminating the need to pull the ejector plunger from the bolt. I'll have my gunsmith make a few for me along with a modified case for the Hornaday tool.
My biggest struggle with the senecas was the length of the bullets themselves. I have brass for another rifle that developed bad donuts so I wasn't cool with seating that deep. I never settled on a load and moved to the 135s once I got my hands on some. I have 400 senecas left so eventually I'll re visit where I left off. As far as 135s are concerned I couldn't find anything my barrel liked using H4350 trust me when I say I tried everything, different charge weights, seating depths from .010 jam to .090 jump. I got lucky and snagged some RL16 from powder valley and finally as of this weekend found a .5 moa load that I'm happy with. I was reluctant to chamber anything in .25 because of bullet availability at first, but when I saw berger release the 135s I went for it. Keep me posted with your results for the senecas, I haven't seen any indication of donuts with my brass after 9 firing so I may be in luck.

 

[Dogtown]

PVA is having a Labor Day sale that includes bullets...

PVA Labor Day Sale

PVA's Labor Day sale is live. We're running sales on barrel blanks from Rock Creek and Osprey Barrel Works as well as pre-fits, the entire bullet line up and associated accessory products. www.patriotvalleyarms.com Sale Code is 'TaxationIsTheft1787' The list of custom prefits we make is...

www.snipershide.com

 

[NamibHunter]

@Wisconsinner - Just shot first loads of 25 Creedmoor 120 Seneca's today.

Tika T3 in a KRG Xray with a 24" light Palma PVA 7.5 T Black Jack Reamer.
Wasn't sure how well it would stabilize since per PVA the 120's require a 7.25T

Seneca's worked pretty well. Wish I could say the same for the new 135 Berger's.

The Tika has a spring ejector button so I make mock up brass by milling a slot for the ejector plunger. 1pc for each new bullet.
The ejector button slot allows the bolt to rotate closed without any interference from the ejector button & doesn't try to turn the bullet.
This works great for AR's also.
I then disengage the striker assembly so I can sneak up on the lands by feel with my seating die. Neck tension is same as I'll be loading.
Once these mock ups are made I can easily use them to set up dies in the future. Really comes in handy with Short action customs multi cal seater for example.

View attachment 7689627

The 120 Seneca drive band touched @ 2.924 COAL

Virgin Alpha 25 Creedmoor brass. Prep was just .256 mandrel & chamfer.
CCI #41 primers
N555
44.6gr = 2949 avg & SD 6.1 COAL 2.925
45gr = 2961 avg & SD 12.2 COAL 2.925
45.4gr = 2994 avg & SD 9.6 COAL 2.925 no pressure signs

45.4gr = COAL 2.915

left target was 45gr loaded 2.925 5 shots with magneto speed on. Right target was 5 shots, 45.4gr, @ 2.915 COAL without magneto speed.

I'll load some more in the fire formed brass & try it at distance.
Also going to give 6.5 StaBall a try.

View attachment 7689633

Interesting to see the large difference in group size with MS on and off. Not a surprise, but still. Will change the barrel whip frequency, just like a tuner would do.

Clever trick milling the case like that, might have to take a Dremel to one of my cases! Won’t be as neat as yours, but should work the same. Presume you could achieve the same result by removing the ejector from the bolt, but it would be way too inconvenient to do that frequently.

Thanks for posting that photo!

 

[spife7980]

Presume you could achieve the same result by removing the ejector from the bolt, but it would be way too inconvenient to do that frequently.

Huh? A punch and a hammer and two whacks later and its out. Less than 2 minutes and that includes gathering up all of the pieces and opening the safe and everything.

 

[spife7980]

Agreed, especially with most actions have quick quarter turn strippable bolts, make finding lands very quick process, 10 mins total job including reassembly.

And even if they dont I just have to put on a footware with a shoe lace and then pull a bit when I unscrew, that takes an extra 45 seconds including sliding on the shoe.

 

[NamibHunter]

True, or you spend 15$ on a rem700 style take down tool. Lots of ways to do it. Milling into a case head is something that has never crossed my mind. But it sure does look cool!

Yeah well last time i disassembled a bolt (Savage) a tiny ball bearing hit the ceiling and it took me an hour to find it with a magnet - crawling on the floor. The wife walked past just shaking her head.

Yep, I need to get a bolt disassembly tool.

 

[NamibHunter]

I've never been around but 1 Savage, and I sold it as the action felt like it was full of sand lol. I have very little experience with them.

Yep my old Savage 12 is no custom rifle in terms of fit or finish. But that unremarkable black $800 Savage shot 1/4” groups when new, slightly better than the MPA that cost closer to $3K with all the extra bits. Factory blueprinted action, the bolt lift is rather hard, and extraction sucks, but at least it cycles smoothly. It has a rather complicated bolt disassembly procedure - and yes you are likely to lose small parts in the process.

The Curtis bolt can be field stripped without tools. Takes only seconds.

 

[357Max]

Huh? A punch and a hammer and two whacks later and its out. Less than 2 minutes and that includes gathering up all of the pieces and opening the safe and everything.

Man tough crowd here.

You are not wrong though as it's easy to knock out a pin & it would take way to long to go after a case head with a dremel.

Since I have a rotary table that lives on my mill in the garage. It takes about as long for me to cut the slot as it does to knock out the ejector pin.
As a bonus I don't have to put the pin back in which can be a PITA on AR's

The ARC Nuke & Mausingfield actions are great since there's no ejector to deal with. I'll be putting an Archimedes together this weekend & that looks like it might be a bit of a chore to get the striker out of.

 

[357Max]

On the Archimedes the striker goes through the lever/bolt handle so it doesn’t just pull out like the Nuke.

On the Mousingfield I just screw the little allen with the washer in the back and it holds the striker fully retracted from the trigger sear.