Advanced Marksmanship To bed or not to Bed???

[88blazer]

I've got a Savage Model 12(new model) Short Action, 204 Ruger. She came with the bull barrel, since been replaced with a Shilen Select Match, 28" 9 twist. The stock is "stock". this is my main question here. The stock IS NOT BEDDED, yet. As far as I can tell myself, I'm holding position the exact same every shot, but I could be wrong. Looking at the targets... I could use some opinions on whether to bed the action or not.

Could the one "flyer" be me, or the cheap Savage plastic stock giving differently with shots? I love the challenge, but these flyers are driving me F-ing crazy! What i wouldn't give to get all those inside that one hole...yeah yeah, I know, thats what she said!

here is what i've got so far:
win cases, full benchrest prep, fire formed and sorted: upper body .361" tight in chamber(fully supported), shoulder datum exactly same, necks turned, loaded necks at .224", bullets and primers sorted.

Top left group .010" off lands
Top right group .005" off lands
Bottom Left, kissing the lands, my load is 26.0 gr IMR-4064, 205M primer(sorted @ 3.6gr) , close to min load, primers good, no over pressure signs and no carbon on the necks after firing.

The only other variable I can think of is the V-Max bullets not being as consistent as Bergers. In my area, V-Max is all I can get for now with this shortage still going on. Since Berger discontinued my 50gr (still pissed about that!) I'm working on a super accurate load resorting to the 40's. Berger 40's wont be available for some time, so here I am playing with V-Max's. I would LOVE to hang with the guys and their big bores at UNSC 600yd match next month with my little 20cal! I just don't think she'll buck the wind at 600. Sure would be fun though!

 

[Eastbay]

I say yes. Won't regret it, and the "kissing the lands" group should get tighter.

 

[Victory]

Always bed, it's not going to decrease the rifles accuracy, at least I've never had a bed job do that.

 

[88blazer]

Cool Thanks Eastbay. I know some people have said bedding made things worse, but I know how to do it correctly. Here are a couple more pics of what I'm dealing with.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByEWxiYnTAEBWmxTV204SHlBc3c/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByEWxiYnTAEBOXlHZFAxWFExMWM/edit?usp=sharing

Could the people having problems with bedding and accuracy have bedded wrong? As in , some bedding material adding pressure points to the action where its not needed? I guess thats what I'm trying to figure out, what to look for and avoid if i do bed myself.

 

[Eastbay]

To bed or not to Bed???

Might have bedded the action wrong, bedded the recoil lug wrong, and/or not have used the right torque specs when tightening their action screws. Make sure you use a good release agent (Johnson's paste wax) and a good epoxy, I prefer epoxy with steel or titanium. There's a few things to think about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[88blazer]

Thanks Eastbay for the input... I bedded last night with JB and mink oil (for my leather holsters and boots) as a release which worked beautiful! A few spots are not the best, but solid where it counts. Off to the range tomorrow! I'll post up pics at 200yds this time. 100 is too close to really see the group open or close up at this point. Hell yeah! another good excuse to go to the range!

 

[88blazer]

Here we go.... I got results I was NOT expecting! I bedded the stock, measured and found my recoil lug had 1/16" clearance prior to bedding. So every shot prior was stressing the action screws 100%. Thanks Savage for a great stock! lol. After bedding, my groups reversed.

Prior to bedding, seating to the lands got me the tightest groups.
Post bedding, seat to lands sucked, .015" off lands was best group!

Has anyone experienced this? Where bedding dramatically changed groups this much? In the pic, target one shows groups at 100yds, target two at 200yds. the 200 yd target you can really see the groups changing.
My issue is, since bedding the action, no longer is kissing the lands accurate! Now, .015 off the lands seems to be better. Could the harmonics of the barrel and action change this much?
[URL=http://s1029.photobucket.com/user/wknox204/media/beddedtargets_zpsf20cf734.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[boone3380]

Yes it could. You can change point of impact by changing the torque on your action bolts. The barrel could have been touching the stock in front of the action and isn't now. Maybe there was a little stress on the action that you relieved with the bedding.
I would try adjusting the seating in finer adjustments from the 2.385 and the 95 depths. In the first group at 100 yds, It looks like you need to add a little powder but at 200 it seems to level the vertical out. Were all groups shot with the same charge?

 

[88blazer]

I got ya. I did torque, so now it will be a constant from here on out. From here...would it be best to adjust the seat depth up and down by .005" increments?

All were shot with the same charge, 26gr IMR-4064, but I did adjust the elevation after the first 5 shot group and a time or two there after, but NOT during groups. I just wanted the rest to be closer to the bull. I should have left it alone and let the groups hit high or wherever they landed. It was off after re-installing the scope after the bedding job. It bothered me it was hitting high. I do see what you mean and yeah... Shoulda left it alone! Would have shown the true placement better. It still shows each overall group.

I checked my range notes....after initial sight in with fouling shots, went onto targets. after group 1-1, adjusted 6 clicks elevation down for targets 1-2 & 1-3. after 100 onto 200yd targets, cleaned barrel and fouling shots(3) hit low, adjusted for 200yd groups up 8 clicks. Shot 1st and 2nd 200yd groups(2-1 & 2-2), then adjusted 4 clicks down for last group(2-3 on target).

 

[boone3380]

I would try in .003 increments above and below the 2.385. Talking more about the horizontal and vertical spread of the groups, than placement on the target. IMHO the Bergers are more consistent than the Vmax but for the price difference I shoot a lot of Hornadys.

 

[lawman29]

Realize these are amaxs but. Eric Stecker in the Berger Reloading Manual talks about the sweet spot is .030 - .040 wide in vlds. Recommends testing off lands at the following: .010, .050, .090 & .130. 6 shots each. One will outperform the others to you as being the most accurate and then getting fine tuning from there...

 

[Graham]

Always bed, it's not going to decrease the rifles accuracy, at least I've never had a bed job do that.

Just avoid looking deep into her eyes.

 

[88blazer]

Good one Graham! Thats funny! So true. Gonna get back out tomorrow and play a bit more. The scope is dialed in now, so I wont change it between groups. I have a few in small increments and a few sets in major jumps. Just if I could find someone with Berger 40gr's in stock. On a few waiting lists for Bergers, but having fun with these V-Max's for now. Honestly, I may have squeezed out every bit of accuracy out of the V-Max's(being a 20 cal.)

Damn I miss those Berger 50gr'ers. I sure wish they would do one last production run for those 50's. They would make a ton of money in a short time if they took pre orders for a while, built up a good sized list, then ran a couple 100k.

 

[88blazer]

Damn Graham...wish you told me about that prior to my second marriage!

well, after a pain staking 2 trips to the range... My second barrel is burned out!LOL! I sent 2800, so, she's done. Bedding did help, but right at the end. Talked to Shilen, they said sell the barrel as a good varmint barrel and order a new one for BR. These guys took over a year to send me a select match 338, hand picked. That says a lot about them. Picky enough to be willing to pass up 67 barrels 338 blanks to me for the select quality I wanted. My old barrel...The 204 Select delivered a dime sized group at 382yds. Got a pic of the clays to prove it! After that, i'm sold on Shilen! When I told them I wanted absolute perfection, they listened and delivered.

For this action, I'm sticking with select match Shilen, chambered in 204! I love it too much! Savage Mod 12, bedded action, good optics, can't go wrong! No varmint will survive!

Thank you to all who posted, it will help me with future barrels. It helps to see what I have focused on and what to look at in the future. I'll post up new groups when the new barrel gets here!

 

[jim_k]

Bedding is for all the reasons you are talking about: consistent return to zero after removing the stock, avoiding recoil on the action screws, and better accuracy, although that is last on the list, and first in our minds. Loads may change, but everything will be for the better. Also, after your rifle/action is bedded, you can relax, since the only factors are going to be the loads and your shooting. I have gotten 1/2 MOA groups from every kind of stock, except a Savage 110 plastic, on which the rear action screw was going into a little plastic tang that bent when I blew on it. Now it is in a Bell & Carlson Medalist.
Jim