Advanced Marksmanship To rear bag or not to rear bag?

[BigBrother]

Okay, in all of my tactical shooting right now, I'm shooting my three rifles in semi-battle setups. What I mean by this is, I bought my rifles for, and shoot matches in, close to combat conditions. So I purchased an AR, an M1A, and a Remington 700 to get familiar with these systems. I don't shoot with a coat, and I use a hasty sling at most, as I find the full sling setup impractical and, as far as I can tell, fairly infrequently used in real scenarios.

Why I do this? Simulation, the fun of it, not really important. I shoot against my own scores, and not the other competitors, as they are truly decked out for the matches. These are highpower courses and F-Class.

Anyway, that's all background info... My question is now about rear bag usage. When shooting to test equipment, for groups, etc., a rear support is obviously invaluable in increasing stability. What I'm wondering is, per my self-imposed "real world" rules, should I start using a rear bag with my Remington for 600 prone in F-Class, etc.? In the field, to those who know, how often do you use rear support (besides that provided by your own body), and are you trained much in it? I know the AIs have a rear monopod, but that's it.

I'm basically trying to figure out how I want to train up. I think a good analog would be the steel safari type matches- do many shoot with rear support there?

Put another way, is rear bag shooting reflective of real-world combat shooting?

Thanks a lot guys, look forward to your responses!

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I don't know anything about 'real world combat shooting' but I will say that several years ago I wanted to shoot as a minimalist. I shot off a back pack and hooked my thumb in my shirt collar. I have been shooting like this for about 5 years. I thought I shot pretty well too, on good days I could open and close the eye box door at 825 with 5 consecutive rounds.

Recently I have read a few of LL's comments about bi-pods being better. I finally got around to shooting one of the SH dot targets and only shot 75% in the black with the backpack and the thumb. I tried the bi-pod and the rear bag - big difference for the better.

Good luck

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

savvy the shooting mitt.....

 

[Sig685]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Let me get this straight, you are shooting in F-class competition with the rifles you listed using a hasty sling at most? I just don't see how using a read bag by itself will be anything but a hindrance and I can't say that I have ever seen anyone shoot using a sling and a rear bag.

I think you should shoot the matches offhand instead, isn't that more "real world." And you should use a 22LR for the 600 yard course.

I just do not understand the motivation of participating in competition but with such a huge handicap as to be totally non-competitive. It's like entering a swimming competition with a burqini. Are you afraid of competing at the appropriate level and not measuring up?

Get a decent bipod and a rear bag and shoot your 700 in F-T/R (provided it's in .308 or .223.) And if your scope (if you have one,) is only 10X or less, just keep telling yourself that Marines have been doing it with a 10X scope for decades. (It won't help, but it may help you fell better.)

 

[deadly0311]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

from a real world operating experience, we used the rear bags or sand socks when we were set up in a hide. Our 40s were much easier to shoot that way. I would recommend it. A guy in our platoon had bought a monopod prior to a deployment and it just didnt work out that great for us, ill stick to the rear bags FWIW

 

[BigBrother]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">from a real world operating experience, we used the rear bags or sand socks when we were set up in a hide. Our 40s were much easier to shoot that way. I would recommend it. A guy in our platoon had bought a monopod prior to a deployment and it just didnt work out that great for us, ill stick to the rear bags FWIW </div></div>

This is exactly the type of input I was looking for. Thanks!!

 

[McCrazy]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

+1 on the sand sock. They are my #1 favorite piece of equipment for shooting well when coupled with a bipod. They only weigh about 2 pounds and are more than worth the extra weight for the increase in accuracy and stability you get for mil-ing targets.

If someone is that worried about weight, you can always just fill a spare sock with sand when you get to your target area and not have humped the extra weight for the insertion. Benefit of much of our operational area being sand-covered as of late.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

When you guys would qualify or be training in prone (I'm talking with a SWS, not M16), would you guys also use rear support besides the non-shooting hand?

 

[McCrazy]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I try to use a sand sock whenever I can with a SWS as my hand gripping the sling by the rear sling-swivel is just not as adept at performing the task. Our Barretts came with the rear monopods but none of us ever used them as they didn't seem to do anything for us that the sand sock did not already do.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I use a bag whenever I can. For field use, I carry a sock full of lentils or split peas (lined with a sealed plastic bag, usually the one they came in, unopened. That way, the Wife can still use them for soup when hunting season's done.) in the left side lower pocket of my field jacket.

Otherwise at the range, it's a relatively upscale rabbit-ear bag. My shooting 'expeditions;' are planned, and the bag is always part of the basics.

In a pinch I use a fist in a glove (Camo Mechanics' Wear). Pinches are danged rare these days; apparently, I've lost my sex appeal.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, in all of my tactical shooting right now, I'm shooting my three rifles in semi-battle setups. What I mean by this is, I bought my rifles for, and shoot matches in, close to combat conditions. So I purchased an AR, an M1A, and a Remington 700 to get familiar with these systems. I don't shoot with a coat, and I use a hasty sling at most, as I find the full sling setup impractical and, as far as I can tell, fairly infrequently used in real scenarios.

Why I do this? Simulation, the fun of it, not really important. I shoot against my own scores, and not the other competitors, as they are truly decked out for the matches. These are highpower courses and F-Class.

Anyway, that's all background info... My question is now about rear bag usage. When shooting to test equipment, for groups, etc., a rear support is obviously invaluable in increasing stability. What I'm wondering is, per my self-imposed "real world" rules, should I start using a rear bag with my Remington for 600 prone in F-Class, etc.? In the field, to those who know, how often do you use rear support (besides that provided by your own body), and are you trained much in it? I know the AIs have a rear monopod, but that's it.

I'm basically trying to figure out how I want to train up. I think a good analog would be the steel safari type matches- do many shoot with rear support there?

Put another way, is rear bag shooting reflective of real-world combat shooting?

Thanks a lot guys, look forward to your responses!</div></div>

I think you could benefit from some basic marksmanship training, as you have some "inaccurate" notions about it all. Without a map to resolve your confusion, your hobby progress will be delayed, and becoming a "good shot" will be more difficult.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">'Delusions' may be a tad harsh, but</span> I agree wholeheartedly that basics training is called for. Unless I'm mistaken, seeking help in that respect is what this thread is all about.

Some of us take our shooting a good bit more seriously than the 'hobby' stage, and that's a good thing, so long as it doesn't cloud our enthusiasm to attract and hold the attention of those who can benefit from our help. After all, when the smoke clears, that's what this place is for.

When I reference 'in the field', I don't mean I'm in the profession, I mean I'm in an off-range context.

My shooting is F Class, which is less structured and less stressful than Charles' N/M chosen discipline; but the basic principles and many of the core techniques are the same. National match shooting across the course does not employ a rear bag; F Class does, or least can. But I am still confident that Charles owns a rear bag and uses it with aplomb in its proper contexts.

The rear bag is a useful tool.

Unless its use is deliberately and specifically disallowed; I think it's a sensible policy to explore as many ways as possible to employ this and other useful tools.

While you or I may hold some one or other of these tools in disdain; a closer examination of such disdainful tendencies will usually disclose them as counterproductive. I try consciously not to let my preferences and prejudices get in the way of useful progress, and recommend such a practice to others as well.

Please favor us with as much and as many more questions as you find interesting. We do to.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Yes, delusional is indeed too harsh, and I've edited my post.

Regarding a rear rest, I prefer to shoot, when possible, with a tight loop sling support, without any additional aid such as a rear bag, as I believe I can get more consistent butt-to-shoulder contact, as well as more predictable recoil from sling support alone.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Actually that's a very valid point, and is overlooked by non-sling shooters at some peril.

That butt/shoulder contact is a key facet of recoil absorption and response, and has a direct bearing on POI dispersion. The sling has my vote as a very effective means of making this facet most consistent.

My own personal situation is abnormal. Shoulder and upper arm injury make sling employment a futile effort on my part at present, several years after the actual injury and several extensive rounds of formal physical therapy. Not easy, maybe not possible ever.

That being as it may, I can think of little that can be more effective than combining a sling with some form or fore and aft support. All the bases get covered. Yeah it's a bit 'imaginative', also possible unwieldy and difficult to perfect. But my chosen mission is life it be 'always thinking', and this is one of those 'o/o the box' thoughts that nags at me periodically.

Greg

 

[earthquake]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">from a real world operating experience, we used the rear bags or sand socks when we were set up in a hide. Our 40s were much easier to shoot that way. I would recommend it.</div></div>

+1 I/we used a small "sand-sock" which was easily portable, and quick to implement. Snap shooting, no of course.

 

[Chris F]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Here's an article written by Shawn Carlock. His thoughts on field positions echo mine (except the bipod).
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-field-shooting-positions-1.php

 

[tacticalrifleman]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I also use a shooting glove, and am fairly successful with it. I like the portability, and light weight. The sock or bag can be fairly portable and light as well. I have used the glove in a fair amount of competitions, both High power with a sling, and tactical competitions as rear stock support. I have been asked at more than one tactical competition what it was for, and occasionally will get curious looks. I like that it is on my hand so it's one less piece of gear that I have to pick up and run with if it is that sort of comp. I will say that I believe that you can shoot significantly more consistantly with a rear bag, especially at longer ranges. Since I don't use one in comps, I also don't use it in training.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

if you have time to set up, a rear bag is the way to go. soemtimes when i am hunt i just use my fist.

 

[Sig685]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpspeeddemon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you have time to set up, a rear bag is the way to go. soemtimes when i am hunt i just use my fist. </div></div>

You hunt with just your fist?

 

[1911fan]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpspeeddemon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you have time to set up, a rear bag is the way to go. soemtimes when i am hunt i just use my fist. </div></div>

You hunt with just your fist? </div></div>

Holy Chuck Norris!


1911fan

 

[Sig685]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

What caliber fist do you use?

 

[wksinatl]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpspeeddemon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you have time to set up, a rear bag is the way to go. soemtimes when i am hunt i just use my fist. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">You hunt with just your fist?</span> </div></div>

I cracked up when I read this......TOO funny!

Keith

 

[spswatip]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I personally think a rear bag is "reflective of real world combat shooting" as stated in your first post...obviously depending on what type of shot you are taking and the time constraints you are faced with. If you have the time and ability to pull out a small portable rear bag it makes a big difference (at least to me). I carry a badger bone in my cargo pocket that I took some of the filling out of. It is small, thin, portable and works very well. Pretty much every perimeter guy I work with uses them in the field. There are a bunch of great rear bags out there, if I were you I would pick one up and put it to work.

 

[GotM118LR]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

If you want to train for "real world" situations, I say train with rear support, without rear support, and any and everything in between. I have had experience as both a military and law enforcement sniper, and I can promise that no 2 scenarios are the same. Ideally you would use a rear support. There are a lot of situations where you can use one. But the world isn't perfect' so there are also a lot of situations where you find yourself using no support or a makeshift support of some kind. That said, train using a rear support and work on your fundamentals to begin with. Then train using any type of position and support you can imagine.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Great stuff all around. Thanks guys.

 

[marc.soileau1]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

If you want to learn about combat shooting, join the Army or Marine Corps. If you are content with your current lifestyle, join the Army National Guard or Marine Corps Reserve (Infantry - in both branches). There you can learn all you need to know about combat shooting.

If you don't want to do that, shoot the civilian style matches an don't be one of those goober wannabees.

 

[lroseen]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Use the rear bag. Personally I wouldn't get too worried about what people are doing in combat. Learn the fundamentals and pay attention to what other people are doing at the shoots you go to. Try what there doing and don't just compete against yourself. If you want to improve you need to try beet the guy next to you and learn from the other shooters. The military gets more new ideas from the civilian shooting comunity than the civilian shooting community from the military. Should you join the military and go to combat you will then have a basis to what you will need to know.

 

[REELDOC]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why I do this? Simulation, the fun of it, not really important. I shoot against my own scores, and not the other competitors, as they are truly decked out for the matches. These are highpower courses and F-Class.
Put another way, is rear bag shooting reflective of real-world combat shooting?
</div></div>

Preface by saying I haven't been in combat. Now that that is out of the way I went through the same thing you are now dealing with. When I started shooting FTR I wanted to do it 'tactically'. I started shooting matches at Butner since that was the longest range around here and I had a buch of buds that did it. I started shooting off a bare fist. Was OK but after a couple hundred rounds it wasn't fun. Then I moved to a glove exactly like the Ripper posted. Felt better, shot better but in my 'tactical' brain I couldn't see carrying that glove all over the woods. Next I read about socks so I sewed up some cordura and put polybeads in it. Kept loosing the dang sock. Sinc emost of the REAL tactical shooters around me were using bags I gave in and got one, scores went way up.

If you are not shooting for official score in an F-match, why not simply use three or four different rear support methods and see what is best for you? You can compare each method in the same realative environmental conditions and not have to worry about your score in competition. I don't have time or motivation to try and 'compete' with the guys at Butner anymore so I simply bring a lot of guns and shoot them all to see what new loads do, etc. I've started having a lot more fun shooting and every once in a while I'll throw up a score testing loads that makes me real happy. I do try and use calibers that stay in FTR compliance, but I might slip into open if I decide to wring on the 300.

I can honestly say that I can still shoot off my hand good enough that I wouldn't carry anything if the aliens starting coming across the field behind the house. You just need to define your criteria if you enter a match; do you want to compete against the field or do you want to test various stuff and not worry about match scores? Most of the field competitors are going to do everything possible to steady their rifle in a consistant manner and a bag is really the only way to do it. You will be extremely lucky or extremely good if you beat an FTR or F-Open high scorer using anything but a bag.

 

[Pain_doc]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

BigBro,

Like a lot of the guys who've been shooting a long time have said, the infamous sand-sock (or lentils if you need to kill, prep, and then bust open your lentils and cook a sweet field stew

) has steadied many a combat rifle over the years. Luckily, there's a slew of good products out there that are both functional and "real-world" applicable, like the badger bone...but you'll find that most of them are replicating the good old sand-sock. The military has picked up as much (in many cases more) from the civilian competition and law enforcement shooting communities as the latter has from the military. When you have time, you may want to also check out the BALS from SKDtac, since it makes a very functional and portable/field expedient option. http://www.skdtac.com/BALS_MK_2_Sniper_Bean_Bag_p/bal.602.htm

 

[M4guru]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I have tried the mitt, the TAB bag, Badger Bone, Triad Redman bag, and the one I made out of a cut-up GI sock in school 5 years ago.

The homemade one is my favorite. The TAB bag is good as is the Badger Bone. The bone is pretty versatile as well, and is user adjustable for fill.

I don't like the mitt personally, and the Redman bag is too big to get a good grip on the way I like to hold my bag (like a soda can). The sand sock is roughly the size of a baked potato and works like a champ.

ETA: I like the SKD bag, and am going to look into ordering one.

 

[18Echo]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

In SOTIC I started with some sand in a plastic bag, in a GI issue sock, 1 each. Didn't like it because it was a little on the heavy side and didn't give the type of movement I wanted when pressure was applied or released. I switched out the sand for popcorn kernels from orville redenbacher and was pretty happy with it.

 

[Guest]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Benefit of much of our operational area being sand-covered as of late. </div></div>
When war breaks out in Antarctica, I will patent the SnowSock.

Until then, this'll do just fine:

 

[M4guru]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I think I wound up with rice in mine. Kernels sounds good too.

 

[18Echo]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M4guru</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I wound up with rice in mine. Kernels sounds good too. </div></div>

And if shit goes south we have something to eat!

 

[M4guru]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I was always afraid if it got wet it would expand. I put it in a USGI unlubricated condom and it;s been good for like 5 years now.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

If you need it, it might work.
Don't count on it!

 

[M4guru]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

The rice is inside the rubber, which is inside the sock. Total of about $.30 invested.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-train</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BigBro,

When you have time, you may want to also check out the BALS from SKDtac, since it makes a very functional and portable/field expedient option. http://www.skdtac.com/BALS_MK_2_Sniper_Bean_Bag_p/bal.602.htm </div></div>

That thing is really cool! Will have a look, might pick it up. And thanks again all for the input- really appreciated!

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I've got a *Redman rear bag, useit on the range..

BUt when I'm hunting I tend to take my shooting glove with me, a rather THICK leather mitt - and if I curl my fist up it becomes a rock solid platform for the rear of the rifle..

But last time I shot any distance I shot from a log and used my shoulder - I am so old school that I believe you should be good at BASIC shooting before you apply the hi-tech stuff..

 

[Erik_the_Sniper]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

JUST ONE QUESTION:
WHAT IS THE BES THING TO FILL IT WITH

 

[deadly0311]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

poly pellets or airsoft bbs

 

[Trapshooter12]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I made some of mine out of Kitty litter. It might not be as light as plastic but not as heavy as dirt.

 

[4Rail_Gunner]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trapshooter12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I made some of mine out of Kitty litter. It might not be as light as plastic but not as heavy as dirt. </div></div>

not afraid thats going to absorb moisture/water and clump up and turn into a rock?

did you use the fresh step stuff so when you shake it around it makes a nice clean odor?

 

[Chanonry]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I saw some hunting dude over here with a bit of pipe insulation taped onto the bottom of his sling. Flexible, broad(ish) and light. I have to confess that I have not tried it but it seems a good thought - no weight, instant access.

Not as good as a bag but for a big hump over the hill it may be ideal and it is in the right place


Andy

 

[Pete E]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I'm look at various type of rear bag at the moment. At present, I've tended to improvise while out stalking, one of my favourites is to use my binos (with the lens covers on of course...

A friend manged to get himeslef some shredded rub pellets and these are ideal. Lighter than sand, but with some bilk to them and nonewater absorbant... The nearest I found was shredded tyres, but it still had the wire in so wasn't suitable...I need to get to a farm supply place as I believe they do the stuff as a surfacing for exercise yards ect...

 

[Bazan]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

I use and zip lock bag with rice in it and it's been doing me right in the desert so far. No matter what you use, within reason, a rear support is better than no support

.

 

[Doug Shooter]

Re: To rear bag or not to rear bag?

Depending on the situation I would use a monopod first them a bag if needed. But I would definitely want to be comfortable without either of them!