To Torque or Not to Torque?

[jcmullis2]

How much torque for a shouldered barrel and how much for a barrel nut? I’ve always torqued between 50-70ish ft/LBs. I recently learned that some guys aren’t doing much more than hand tight. Being a little on the lazy side that sounded pretty good. However, I wanted the collective wisdom of the group before I tried the hand tightening method.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

75-80 ft/lbs
Which means I lean on the action wrench with a mild grunt

 

[jcmullis2]

75-80 ft/lbs
Which means I lean on the action wrench with a mild grunt

Yep. About the same here. I don’t put as much on a barrel nut but I definitely give it about 50ft/LBs.
A couple of knowledgeable guys were saying they weren't using much more than hand tight. Maybe they were pulling my leg.

 

[z28kid]

I use 50 ft lbs with a torque wrench. I have heard of benchrest guys going hand tight, but they shoulder it up then back it off to snap it on I think. From what I understand this requires a barrel vise and wrench to remove still.

 

[Powder_Burns]

50-70ft lbs with a calibrated torque wrench that was calibrated by a certified calibrated calibrator that was certified calibrated by a certified calibrated calibrator calibrator for calibrating torque wrenches!

 

[jcmullis2]

I use 50 ft lbs with a torque wrench. I have heard of benchrest guys going hand tight, but they shoulder it up then back it off to snap it on I think. From what I understand this requires a barrel vise and wrench to remove still.

The snap thing was mentioned but I’m not sure what that is exactly. Seems like it might be a quick hit with something or the palm of the hand.

 

[z28kid]

It's where you go all the way against the shoulder, back it off just a little, and quickly twist it back tight allowing momentum to give it a little extra torque.
That's how I put my can on my rifle so I don't have to worry about checking to see if it's coming loose.

 

[jcmullis2]

50-70ft lbs with a calibrated torque wrench that was calibrated by a certified calibrated calibrator that was certified calibrated by a certified calibrated calibrator calibrator for calibrating torque wrenches!

Ms Vito always has mine certified minutes before use by a guy from the office of weights and measurements to be dead on balls accurate.

 

[Steel head]

I’ve torqued less on a barrel nut and have it come loose
I use 80# now.

 

[Powder_Burns]

But was your torque wrench calibrated?

 

[z28kid]

I’ve torqued less on a barrel nut and have it come loose
I use 80# now.

Probably had to do more with not having a good shoulder square to threads or the nut may have had some thread to shoulder issue in my opinion.
Was it on a untrue factory receiver by chance?

 

[Steel head]

Probably had to do more with not having a good shoulder square to threads or the nut may have had some thread to shoulder issue in my opinion.
Was it on a untrue factory receiver by chance?

No
Trued nut on a ARC action.

 

[dustingaunder]

I use 70# for shouldered barrels. Used to do 100. Then switched to 90. Then to 70. They hold fine and are much easier to remove. I can usually handle 70 with my bench vice and I’m lazy.

 

[z28kid]

No
Trued nut on a ARC action.

That's definitely odd then, most guys use 35 to 50 ft lbs on savage barrel nuts.

 

[Steel head]

That's definitely odd then, most guys use 35 to 50 ft lbs on savage barrel nuts.

I was one of them.

 

[jcmullis2]

I was one of them.

It ain’t gonna back out with 80ft/LBs that’s for sure. I’ve heard of guys using lock tite on their nuts. It might work but I can’t imagine doing anything like that. I was gonna try the half ass tightening but I Damn sure don’t need a loose barrel. I’m glad I ran this by you guys before I rucked up. Lots of good information on the hide. Thanks fellas y’all saved me on this one.

 

[Steel head]

It ain’t gonna back out with 80ft/LBs that’s for sure. I’ve heard of guys using lock tite on their nuts. It might work but I can’t imagine doing anything like that. I was gonna try the half ass tightening but I Damn sure don’t need a loose barrel. I’m glad I ran this by you guys before I rucked up. Lots of good information on the hide. Thanks fellas y’all saved me on this one.

If you plan on swapping barrels loctite on the nut is a great way to go.
I install them and run it till it dies.

 

[jcmullis2]

If you plan on swapping barrels loctite on the nut is a great way to go.
I install them and run it till it dies.

I typically leave the barrel on until my groups open up. Then I put on a new barrel and toss the old one out. I just got my pva shouldered prefit for my tenacity and a nss remage criterion that I haven’t put on yet. If I don’t get the damn anti seize all over me and everything else I’ll give it a try on the remage rig. Thanks man

 

[Mike Casselton]

50-70ft lbs with a calibrated torque wrench that was calibrated by a certified calibrated calibrator that was certified calibrated by a certified calibrated calibrator calibrator for calibrating torque wrenches!

Then he dropped the torque wrench on the floor and had to start all over again...

 

[Raffy]

If your planning on hand tight the gunsmithy is supposed to change the machining to allow that. After torquing it on there is something like .002 thread crush that needs to be accounted for. I dont know if that is an every time thing or if it is just on the first spin, but apparently it is a thing. Here is how I learned about it

 

[Deleted member 10043]

About 35 to 50 on a barrel nut.

 

[celltech]

Some of my OEM Savage nuts took a deadblow to break them off...so putting them back on at 60-80 is fine.

 

[z28kid]

Some of my OEM Savage nuts took a deadblow to break them off...so putting them back on at 60-80 is fine.

Don't they use a threadlocker?

 

[Mordamer]

Tighten until you hear the crack, then back off an eighth of a turn.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Don't they use a threadlocker?

I never seen any.

 

[SN13]

Tighten until you hear the crack, then back off an eighth of a turn.

Hear? Until you SEE the receiver Split, you run the risk of the barrel backing off.

 

[Powder_Burns]

just weld it on, then check your go/no-go, grind off your weld, adjust, then re-weld.

 

[z28kid]

just weld it on, then check your go/no-go, grind off your weld, adjust, then re-weld.

I like a similar method of using 50 ftlbs, then drill and pin the receiver to barrel, after that you weld over the pin to ensure it stays put.

 

[celltech]

Don't they use a threadlocker?

Nope...just a gorilla with a cheater bar...

 

[A&8's]

I torque to 78.98356 ft lbs. I use a Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory edition, signature series torque wrench. And as always, a split second before the torque wrench is applied to said barrel, it's calibrated by top members of the state and federal Departments of Weights and Measures, to be dead-on balls accurate.

 

[Powder_Burns]

I like a similar method of using 50 ftlbs, then drill and pin the receiver to barrel, after that you weld over the pin to ensure it stays put.

Pin bbl nut to the barrel, so if you swap calibers back and forth once your headspace is set and the bbl nut is pinned, no longer have to set headspace for that barrel.

 

[jcmullis2]

I torque to 78.98356 ft lbs. I use a Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory edition, signature series torque wrench. And as always, a split second before the torque wrench is applied to said barrel, it's calibrated by top members of the state and federal Departments of Weights and Measures, to be dead-on balls accurate.

The lovely Miss Vito

 

[drshoot]

I got my action and barrel before the torque wrench arrived. I put them together hand tight and it was tighter than 80 ft/lbs. The average American Male has natural grip strength max above 70 ft/lbs for obvious reasons.
I'd still get the wrench.

 

[jcmullis2]

I got my action and barrel before the torque wrench arrived. I put them together hand tight and it was tighter than 80 ft/lbs. The average American Male has natural grip strength max above 70 ft/lbs for obvious reasons.
I'd still get the wrench.

I gotta say you got some grip strength man. I don’t think there’s any way in hell I could grip that barrel nut tight enough to put 70ft/LBs of torque on it. I’ll just have to use my torque wrench.

 

[drshoot]

I gotta say you got some grip strength man. I don’t think there’s any way in hell I could grip that barrel nut tight enough to put 70ft/LBs of torque on it. I’ll just have to use my torque wrench.

I work at a place with physical/occupational therapy and they have a hand dynamometer. You'd be surprised how high your grip strength actually is when measured.

 

[King_beardsly]

I think I torque mine to like 80-85 ft/lbs and both have been solid. I stood on the barrel vice since it wasn’t on my bench yet and used a harbor freight torque wrench, super high precision stuff.

 

[drshoot]

Is that the Icon? That's what I use. Seems solid.

 

[King_beardsly]

Is that the Icon? That's what I use. Seems solid.

I think I’ve got a Pittsburgh but I could be wrong, either way it works

 

[E. Bryant]

I usually do 100 lb-ft on barrels and 50 lb-ft on Savage barrel nuts. If the thread fit is good, I have not observed any change in headspace between this and "hand tight". In fact, a properly-fitted barrel basically doesn't rotate once it's snug, even if the threads are lubricated. A bolt of the same size would be torqued to well over 600 lb-ft, so it's not like any appreciable stretch is generated with a measly 100 lb-ft.

Breaking loose factory barrels from both Remington and Savage is a different story, and should not be used as a reference point for installing a quality aftermarket barrel.

I work at a place with physical/occupational therapy and they have a hand dynamometer. You'd be surprised how high your grip strength actually is when measured.

You're mistaking the force generated with hand grip (which should be well above 100 lb for a healthy adult male) with the torque required to install a barrel. These are not the same things; they are in fact remarkably different. If you want to determine the torque that can be generated, an estimate can be calculated by multiplying one's grip strength by the coefficient of friction between skin and the barrel (or barrel nut), and then multiplying that by the barrel (or nut) diameter. This will not come out anywhere close to 100 lb-ft, which is immediately obvious to anyone who has ever employed basic hand tools.

 

[drshoot]

I stand corrected.

 

[jcmullis2]

There’s a big difference and I didn’t need algebra to figure it out lol. My torque wrench is about 18” long. 80ft/LBs is way more torque than the Rock, Arnold, or any other muscled up SOB could put on that barrel nut with bare hands.

 

[jcmullis2]

Or you could just set your sizing die to bump the shoulder 2 thou on fired brass ....regardless of how much your headspace varies from a Saami spec

I’d be too concerned about the 60,000 psi explosion getting me if my headspace wasn’t right. I even check the headspace on new rifles.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I torque to 78.98356 ft lbs. I use a Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory edition, signature series torque wrench. And as always, a split second before the torque wrench is applied to said barrel, it's calibrated by top members of the state and federal Departments of Weights and Measures, to be dead-on balls accurate.

Yesterday they changed the standard to Dead- nuts accurate. You'll need to get it checked again.

 

[Delicatessen]

I have had a tikka that was rebarrelled by another member back off. I would suggest at least 50 ft lb (I generally do 75). Now if you are using a wrench that may be close to “hand tight” but I wouldn’t personally trust hand tight in the in-lb range if you are literally just using your hands on the barrel. Do what works but it’s not hard to get to 50-70 ft-lbs.

 

[Raffy]

Or you could just set your sizing die to bump the shoulder 2 thou on fired brass ....regardless of how much your headspace varies from a Saami spec

Sounds logical to me. If you were in a position worth risking the barrel coming loose on you and you wanted to try that, consistency would be the key there with your barrel installation technique. And I would think that .002 thread crush number would probably change if you measured it on someone elses brand of action, different thread type, different types of steel, etc.... I dont think the same person hand tightening the same barrel would show very much variance in that lack of thread crush they are talking about, unless they either turned into the hulk and tightnend the heck out of it, or just ate bacon with their hands and werent able to properly grip the thing. Dont most people bump the shoulder .002 on their brass anyway?

Follow up reloading question- would you need to re fire form your brass if you decided to go just hand tight rather than using a torque wrench?

 

[A&8's]

Yesterday they changed the standard to Dead- nuts accurate. You'll need to get it checked again.

"Dead-nuts accurate"

It's an industry term.

 

[hereinaz]

Lots of factory ammo comes in 9 to 10 thou short. 2 thou under isn't going to blow up in your face. Which is my point.

When I hear stuff like this, I wonder how many people know and understand field gauge, no go and go lengths. Add on SAAMI ammo specs that are different.

Magnum belted cases headspace off the belt so that ammo has extra shoulder space so it always chambers even if dirty, is how I understand it.

Understand that stuff, and you have an advantage when you are dealing with your rifle and ammo.

 

[hereinaz]

You're giving too much consideration to this .002" thread crush fit thing. The idea is that headspace is 2.xx3" and if the gunsmith cuts it and then tests it on a guage without torquing the barrel at 2.xxx3 , once he torques the barrel on to some high torque value like 100ftlbs it's now 2.xx1" instead of 2.xx3". So they put two straps of scotch tape on a go gauge to replicate a no-go, plus .002" for crush fit. That's all. My point is it really that big a deal? If you're chamber is .002" longer bc your smith cut it for a crush fit that you're not using? The brass is going to be short on its first firing more than likely anyway. Just don't continue running the brass out of headspace. Thats where you'll get into trouble. After the first firing, you now have headspaced brass. Set your die to bump .002" and go.

By all means, put some torque on your shouldered barrel. The example of guys shooting hand tight is just an example of an extreme to provide some perspective of how little it probably matters between guys advocating 120lbs vs 70lbs or even 40lbs.

Yup, the question is how tight do you want it, to reduce the risk of it from coming off?

Obviously, factories go with the "never in a million years" torque spec".

Gunsmiths regularly go with 80 to 100 on shouldered barrels.

If you use a suppressor, I like more torque cause sometimes pulling a gunked up suppressor is a pain. Lower torque, which shoots fine and doesn't come off from shooting might not be enough, I have pulled off when a suppressor was stuck on.

 

[E. Bryant]

I’d be too concerned about the 60,000 psi explosion getting me if my headspace wasn’t right. I even check the headspace on new rifles.

It's not the first firing with loose headspace that gets you, it's on some subsequent loading after repeatedly stretching the brass and then pushing the shoulder back.

EDIT: What reubenski said above

I won't get into specific numbers because I don't want to endorse any bad ideas, but back in the golden era of shoddy mil-surp kit builds but companies like Hesse and Century, it was scary to witness just how much excess headspace could be tolerated.

 

[Raffy]

You're giving too much consideration to this .002" thread crush fit thing. The idea is that headspace is 2.xx3" and if the gunsmith cuts it and then tests it on a guage without torquing the barrel at 2.xxx3 , once he torques the barrel on to some high torque value like 100ftlbs it's now 2.xx1" instead of 2.xx3". So they put two straps of scotch tape on a go gauge to replicate a no-go, plus .002" for crush fit. That's all. My point is it really that big a deal? If you're chamber is .002" longer bc your smith cut it for a crush fit that you're not using? The brass is going to be short on its first firing more than likely anyway. Just don't continue running the brass out of headspace. Thats where you'll get into trouble. After the first firing, you now have headspaced brass. Set your die to bump .002" and go.

By all means, put some torque on your shouldered barrel. The example of guys shooting hand tight is just an example of an extreme to provide some perspective of how little it probably matters between guys advocating 120lbs vs 70lbs or even 40lbs.

Yes. Makes sense and I agree. I was just theorizing off of what I just learned about, however I do know of some who really do cut barrels and chambers for hand tight only applications. Cant say I agree, but it is a thing. I guess my real point in my previous post was to find out if the .002 bump on the brass was such a big deal that if they wanted to start shooting hand tight would they need to account for it. I wouldn't doubt it would be safe enough, just trying to figure out the reloading concepts before I start.