I am a bit new to precision rifle reloading and found out recently that I HAVE to anneal my brass each time. I shoot 6.5CM with Peterson brass. The most reloaded is 4 times. Is it too late to start annealing? Should I just throw them out and buy new brass and start over? All the brass still checks out fine. No cracks and sizes fine. Just curious if the 4 times fired brass is savable.
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Too Late to Anneal Brass?
- Thread starter RaptorAddict
- Start date
You can start now. That's how often my dad would do it and he never had problems
You dont HAVE to. As you’ve probably found out you are getting by just fine so far without.
It’s just one thing you can do to try and maintain consistency between firings and extend brass life.
It’s just one thing you can do to try and maintain consistency between firings and extend brass life.
Who ever told you that is probably either selling or getting paid to sell you something , and or is an internet Ex-Spurt**
Plus a lot depends on how and how far you shoot. F & F-TR shooters shooting from very stable rests vs having a "pillow" strapped to your rifle and shooting from all sorts of unstable physical positions. Plus , the master trigger linkage plays a big part.
** Ex-Spurt = Ex = former
Spurt = a drop of water under pressure , released
Throw away after 4 firings?? No…… I shot a lot of rounds that I never annealed past 4x, before I drank the annealing koolaid.
Now I only do mine every 3rd firing. That seems to be plenty for my needs.
Nobody selling. Just seen threads on here with many precision shooters saying you must do it every time you reload. I have OCD with reloads and I do plan on shooting far and accurate, so if it makes it better, I figured I'll just do it.
I’m not a metallurgist but it’s my feeling that getting the exact annealing every single firing, with most common economical methods, is unlikely. Perhaps with the expensive induction annealers but with torch and flame it seems unlikely to me.
I have an induction annealer now, but I'll say that my homemade flame annealer was the most consistent I've used. I found that if I moved the torches back such that it took in the neighborhood of 10 seconds per case, I could watch for the color change on the case, and when I saw it drop just below the shoulder, I'd kick the case out.
Why did I make the switch? Covid. Yes, Covid. When Covid hit, my wife started working from home. I flame annealed at my bench inside the house, which my wife never knew. After Covid, she worked from home. Wife at home = no hiding open flame inside the house = gotta ditch flame annealing.
It took a lot longer, but it was very consistent.
What sort of test are you using to establish that the hardness of the metal is exactly the same each time?
I remember a discussion I had with a young college shooter who understood this particular metallurgy well. He drew a graph and was talking about his method of taking the brass past proper annealing then the resizing would work the brass back down to the proper hardness. He really new his stuff but it was above my pay grade. He had a good rational for this approach and it was consistency.
Certainly doing it every 3rd firing leave time between sessions. Doing it every firing would fine tune your process towards consistency.
you dont need to anneal to win EVERY match. you need to anneal to have longer life of your brass.
My dad had some LC 1x he reloaded 30x without annealing.
I would venture a guess, that most who anneal, don't actually make their brass last longer.
I would venture a guess, that most who anneal, don't actually make their brass last longer.
Annealing does a cpl things to help in our spendy hobby. One, it HELPS to add longevity to the brass by keeping it “workable” and two, which to me is most important, it keeps the necks “soft”. Some cases used in high temp overbore cartridges tend to develop split necks after a few firings. To ME in MY world, the necks being “soft” allows for consistent neck tension. Consistent neck tension = accuracy. Neck tension on a case is one of the most important aspects of reloading IMO.
Try this little experiment and see if you get any difference. Take some cases that have been fired several times and resize them and then measure the mouths. Then anneal several and do the same measurement. What I have found is that when using a bushing sizing die, the measurement of the mouths / necks, will be the exact same dia as the bushing on my annealed cases. The cases that were not annealed tend to “ spring” back a bit and may be .001-.002 larger than the bushing at the case neck. This creates inconsistent neck tension, which in turn creates inconsistent pressures in the case.
Now I suppose one could argue that “ hey, I don’t anneal shit, and my rifle shoots lights out”. I won’t disagree with that, but essentially you still have a modicum of consistency in that all your necks are “springing “ back the same and thereby giving the same neck tension.
Try it for yourself and see. If you don’t see a diff, and your shit brings home the prize table, don’t waste your time or money and rock on!
For what it’s worth, I don’t mind doing it, it SEEMS to make my ammo more accurate. But if someone told me that leaving brass in a bowl of calves blood outside overnite on a full moon makes the brass inherently accurate. I’d try that too! What am I out if it doesn’t work?
Try this little experiment and see if you get any difference. Take some cases that have been fired several times and resize them and then measure the mouths. Then anneal several and do the same measurement. What I have found is that when using a bushing sizing die, the measurement of the mouths / necks, will be the exact same dia as the bushing on my annealed cases. The cases that were not annealed tend to “ spring” back a bit and may be .001-.002 larger than the bushing at the case neck. This creates inconsistent neck tension, which in turn creates inconsistent pressures in the case.
Now I suppose one could argue that “ hey, I don’t anneal shit, and my rifle shoots lights out”. I won’t disagree with that, but essentially you still have a modicum of consistency in that all your necks are “springing “ back the same and thereby giving the same neck tension.
Try it for yourself and see. If you don’t see a diff, and your shit brings home the prize table, don’t waste your time or money and rock on!
For what it’s worth, I don’t mind doing it, it SEEMS to make my ammo more accurate. But if someone told me that leaving brass in a bowl of calves blood outside overnite on a full moon makes the brass inherently accurate. I’d try that too! What am I out if it doesn’t work?
With all due respect, show me any consumer-available process that will make the hardness of the metal exactly the same each time - including not annealing at all. Even the most advanced annealers will not be exactly the same, because case to case, the brass isn't exactly the same, day to day, the environmental parameters are not the same. etc. The goal is not to be exactly the same, but rather to reduce inconsistencies to a feasible minimum.
What I did:
- Used 750 degree Tempilaq to establish a baseline for the placement of the torches and time (longer than normal) to keep the cases in the flames.
- Additionally, visually noted where the color change occurred in the brass when the Tempilaq indicated the desired temp had been reached.
- The above two established a baseline time, placement, and visual cue.
- Used the combination of those three to improve consistency case to case to make up for the fact that exact placement in the flames, day-to-day temperature differences in the annealing room, and brass inconsistencies impact exactly how long to anneal something. By drawing out the time, you have more latitude to enable a manual method to get closer to the perfect time.
If I ever move to where I can flame anneal again, given that I don't anneal a crap-ton of cases at a time, I'll likely go back to this method. Why do I think it was more consistent? My SDs increased about 15% immediately after switching to induction annealing.
On the efficiency side, right now I anneal a case in roughly 3-4 seconds, depending on the caliber - this includes loading and unloading. I'd probably be in more of the 12-15 second range for my extended flame annealing. Over 100 cases, it's the difference between 300-400 seconds (5 - 6+ minutes) and 1200 - 1500 seconds (20 - 25 minutes). Not huge, but significant enough to be a consideration.
Also, there is something oddly relaxing about manually flame annealing.
There’s a whole pile of m1903 receivers that aren’t safe to shoot because knowledgable smiths were relying on the color change in the metal to determine metal temp during heat treat…
OP get pin gauges before you worry about annealing. People without pin guages are typically just regurgitating things they don't fully understand. After you get pin gauges, you can (and you will) worry about annealing. But you need that feedback of the gauges to make sense of why people are telling you to anneal.
This is a touch over-simplified, because you are leaving the mass of the case. The diffusion of the "temp" (heatsource)over time is controlled by multiple omitted variables...proximity, mass and geometry...etc...of the object are among those. Different headstamps need different annealing routines. I'm sure you know that, just a friendly reminder.
Obviously if you annealed the brass you just shot, you’re not going throw it away and anneal different brass the next time you shoot.This is a touch over-simplified, because you are leaving the mass of the case. The diffusion of the "temp" (heatsource)over time is controlled by multiple omitted variables...proximity, mass and geometry...etc...of the object are among those. Different headstamps need different annealing routines. I'm sure you know that, just a friendly reminder.
Are you worried more about splitting necks or primer pockets getting loose when you think about brass life?
pin gauges are the stupidest thing in modern reloading, just like mandrells...
INSIDE DIAMETER Important stuff like that . Great way to determine how much your brass resists forming/springs back after annealing, etc . . Proven method, no debate .
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Gage pins cannot distinguish between undersized diameters and out of roundness conditions.
Don't you feel stupid right about now?
I use carbide mandrels, so my necks are round. After that, i test with a pin guage. It will reveal the actual 'tension' the brass is capable of. As the brass work hardens, it loses its 'spring'. Lower spring means less tension for any given true inside diameter.
Spring back can affect roundness even after a run through a mandrel. Spot check with an inside mic to confirm.
If you're comparing case neck ID with bullet OD I agree. However technically you're just measuring the degree of interference fit, not tension.
That's the difference between correct terminology and reloading-speak.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
when brass is work HARDENS, it is more HARD! so it means it has more spring back. and with annealing you make it softer - more ductile, so plastic deformation is at lower force.
this is exact science, and anything beond 0.001-2' of 'neck tension' is plastic deformation of the brass, which contribute ZERO to tension.
so when brass is work harden, this springback become larger because is not ductile anymore. and when you anneal your brass, it became more plastic, so there is less neck tension because at lower force you deform your brass (plastic deformation).
so please, do yourself a favor and stop using those nonsence 'reloading' 'tools'...
The Science of Cartridge Brass Annealing
Want to know how annealing brass works? We examine the science here.
bisonballistics.com
Take a paperclip...this as engineered... it works a spring...ARE YOU SERIOUS?
when brass is work HARDENS, it is more HARD! so it means it has more spring back...
Now, unwind it, bend it at right angles...100 times...reconfigure to original shape...
Guess what...your paperclip now sucks.
Becuase the paperclip...well...it snapped in half already...
Tell me again how it has more 'spring' after work hardening LMAO
Paper Clip: Just Wire Without Heat Treat
Consider the humble paper clip, whose utility highly depends on the properties of the metal developed by heat treatment. It may just be a thin piece of steel wire traditionally bent into a double-oval shape, but no one has invented a better method of holding loose sheets of paper together over...
www.industrialheating.com
So?Take a paperclip...this as engineered... it works a spring...
Now, unwind it, bend it at right angles...100 times...reconfigure to original shape...
Guess what...your paperclip now sucks.
Becuase the paperclip...well...it snapped in half already...
Tell me again how it has more 'spring' after work hardening LMAO
Paper Clip: Just Wire Without Heat Treat
Consider the humble paper clip, whose utility highly depends on the properties of the metal developed by heat treatment. It may just be a thin piece of steel wire traditionally bent into a double-oval shape, but no one has invented a better method of holding loose sheets of paper together over...
This is the most intelligent thing I have read in a long time, and very succinctly stated. Most don't know what they don't know.
My 2 cents on annealing. It seems as though Amp is the way to go if you want to afford it. It MIGHT actually add consistency. I don't want to afford it. I anneal with a flame annealer every 3rd firing. It doesn't hold me back. My stuff shoots good enough to win 1 day regional matches. Before I started multiplying the cost of all this shit by thousands of rounds, I did not anneal. In fact, I did all kinds of no-no's like crimping and other blood thirsty shit. Almost all my stuff would still shoot better than 3/4 moa for 5 shots out of factory guns. Some much better.
I've said it before, but it bears repeating. If you want to reload as a hobby, go for it. If you want to shoot, focus on brass, barrels, and bullets. Full length size, drop powder, and seat a bullet. Forget brushing necks and cleaning primer pockets and neck turning. Unless you're shooting f-class or benchrest you don't need all that shit to win, and even then it is debatable.
Most of the good shooters I know hate reloading and like shooting. My gunsmith is a consistent top ten shooter at 2 day precision rifle events and loads his match ammo FULL PROGRESSIVE, POWDER AND ALL, on a Dillon and has been for a few years.
Most decent prs shooters are not using benchrest loading techniques, but are still system capable of sub 3/8 moa consistently for 5 shots with their set-up.
With all due respect, IMHO this view is mistaken.There is a noticeable difference between a static bore diameter, and dynamic spring clamp. With good pin gauges, in addition to the basic go/no go, you can get a "settles on air pressre" fit, and a spring fit, and a forced/deformation fit. If all that is observable is go/no go, you may require finer gradations of pin sizing. Cheers.
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My statement had nothing to do with the interface of the bullet and the neck ID
It's a statement of fact that a gage pin cannot tell the difference between an out of round hole and an undersized hole. You need additional metrology to understand which it is
Even if you force the pin in, you still don't know what exactly you're dealing with. The point of measurements is to understand not to guess.
I'm not a hobbyist when it comes to this (measurement, fits, assembly problems), but don't listen to me.
