Range Report Took a LR Course and have concerns/questions about Apps

[donho00]

If this is the wrong section. I apologize in advance
Long Post as well

This week I took a LR course and was the first time to shoot longer distances.

The course was 2 days and I learned quite a bit.

But some things just didnt make sense to me
Prior the course I load tested my rifle and settled on Hornandy 130eld(230rem)
grouped the best. so thats what I was planning to use. I verified the velocity with a Magnetospeed(2862 average)
I used Hornady 4DOF and inputted all info. Including the high altitude the range the class was being held at(1640+)
Even printed out a chart so I could us it for notes and adjustments

Day 1 of the course was lots of info. some 100-300 yards drills and tests. Like a box test. where my optic seemed high
also a test shooting a spot at 100yards. Then dialing 30moa and shooting three rounds. Mine was high. So the instructor
mentioned the Correction Factor of .951 that should be multiplied by whatever solution I was going by.

On day 2 we started shooting further. But first we verified at 300. I was low, so he mentioned the high altitude
was making my velocity higher??

He said I should adjust my velocity in my app to get my 300yard closer to actual. Makes sense to me.
I used Strelok since it was easier to adjust and show new table multiple times compared to the Hornady
I played with velocity until the 300yard was about where my POI was and we moved up to 540

Using the new adjusted Strelok chart. I sent three at 540 and all hit dead nuts.
Then 775, adjusted based on strelok. same all three almost touching
Then 994, 3 and 3
Then 1058, 3 shots, 2 impacts
Then 1115, 4 shots, 2 impacts. Thats was kind of on me. I picked the lower elevation 29. should have went to the next one up

This seemed all good to me. First time doing this and I was able to connect. But then I thought about it.

My Hornady app had all the exact data inputted. and it was way off? I would have been about 34+ moa using it

I understand that the higher altitude could mean higher velocities. But doesnt me inputting the altitude adjust the solution for that?
Also the Correction Factor that we spent time learning about. There was no parameter to input that. But even multiplying
that(.951) to the Hornady Solution would still have not been right? With the Strelok solution I didnt bother adjusting for CF.
But had velocity adjusted based on actual POI at 300 yards.

So is this normal for these Ballistic Apps? do you adjust based on test fire impact everytime? and adjust velocity based on that??
I assumed by me actually verifying velocity it would be accurate and the app would adjust for altitude?? Did I do something wrong?

I am more then happy I was able to connect. But it was was a last minute adjustment based on 300yard POI.
Playing with velocity until the chart at 300 matched my bullet holes

would a different app work better? Instructor suggested AB. but when he inputted my data into his app. The solution was
was too much elevation adjustment??

Once again, sorry for the long post. Just had lots on my mind and wanted to type it while it was still fresh.

 

[pbatesaz]

Hi Donho00,
You might find the answers you are looking for in the Ballistic Calculators section. You are correct that Hornady 4DOF does not have a facility for turret calibration, a significant oversight in my opinion (which is worth exactly what I charge for it). As has been mentioned in several threads, BC is an approximation based on manufacturer testing and will probably not exactly correspond to your experience. Muzzle velocity measurements too are subject to some error and it is unlikely that your 100 yard zero is exactly zero. All of these things taken together mean that you will always have to "true" your ballistic calculator. As Frank has suggested, you can true your results by changing the MV input to true the calculator at 400 to 600 yards, and beyond that by modifying the BC until the calculated results match up with what you are experiencing. If you are using 4DOF, instead of changing BC you adjust the curve using the Axial Form Factor.

 

[donho00]

I tried moving the Axial Form Factor on the 4DOF, but it didnt move the adjustment enough to match the actual POI at 300

I just opened my Strelok and the velocity that gave me the numbers that seem to work was 2740??? Way lower then what my Magnetospeed testing showed. and lower, NOT higher then the instructor was saying was likely the higher altitude. I understand
all Ballistic apps use a different algorithim. But how can it be so different? My 4DOF had velocity at 2862

 

[Steel head]

I use my app(ballistic AE) often to get approximate holds.
Those are confirmed with actual dope from notes in areas I shoot at often.

The apps actually do really well once you get it some good data to run with.

I often have to true it a bit but nothing major.
Usually I just fiddle with the bullet BC.
Sometimes I use a G1 instead of a G7 and everything matches up perfectly.

 

[donho00]

If I have to true the app at all new ranges I go to. I totally understand. and will do it.

I just assumed I was doing something way off to get results that were so far off.
Because I did have proper and accurate data to input
but it was still way off.

if POI/App trueing is needed. How do you get first round hits? or is it half estimation and some luck thown in?

 

[Steel head]

If I have to true the app at all new ranges I go to. I totally understand. and will do it.

I just assumed I was doing something way off to get results that were so far off.
Because I did have proper and accurate data to input
but it was still way off.

if POI/App trueing is needed. How do you get first round hits? or is it half estimation and some luck thown in?

I just true once.
I make sure the POI disparity is right.
Then fiddle with BC and maybe speed to get it right.

I shoot at various altitudes often from basically sea level, 1600, 2300 and 6000.
With having an accurate DA I found my predicted and actually got a lot more in sync.

Then I find having a baseline zero DA I can input a new current DA and local wind and be in the game.

These apps work great but I believe Frank recently said you have to fit them to what the bullet is actually doing.

 

[pbatesaz]

Well something doesn’t compute here... no pun intended. I just entered data into Stelock Pro and 4DOF for the Hornady 130 ELD M using the same environmentals and MV. In 4DOF I used their doppler profile and in Strelok I used the G7 BC. At 1200 yards Strelock gave me 30.8 MOA. 4DOF gave me 31.08 MOA... not much difference. That makes me wonder whether you have an input error somewhere that would give a result around 5 MOA difference.

 

[donho00]

I just true once.
I make sure the POI disparity is right.
Then fiddle with BC and maybe speed to get it right.

I shoot at various altitudes often from basically sea level, 1600, 2300 and 6000.
With having an accurate DA I found my predicted and actually got a lot more in sync.

Then I find having a baseline zero DA I can input a new current DA and local wind and be in the game.

These apps work great but I believe Frank recently said you have to fit them to what the bullet is actually doing.

The altitude parameter. Is that the actual measured feet above sea level? or is it based on DA?
I know based on the Kestral info of the instructor the altitude kept changing depending on weather
I was wondering do I input the actual measured altitude or the what the environmental make it?

 

[donho00]

Well something doesn’t compute here... no pun intended. I just entered data into Stelock Pro and 4DOF for the Hornady 130 ELD M using the same environmentals and MV. In 4DOF I used their doppler profile and in Strelok I used the G7 BC. At 1200 yards Strelock gave me 30.8 MOA. 4DOF gave me 31.08 MOA... not much difference. That makes me wonder whether you have an input error somewhere that would give a result around 5 MOA difference.

My Strelok had the velocity adjusted to match the POI on the 300yard groups we shot. Not the actual Chron'ed velocity

I just went back into the Strelok and inputted all the same data the 4DOF had
500 yard was-4DOF: 8.63 Strelok: 8.55
900 yard was-4DOF: 23.43 Strelok: 22.80

So they are fairly close. I only switched over to the Strelok because on my phone it was faster to go back and forth checking the correction from changing velocity. To match the POI at 300 yards.

 

[donho00]

Inorder for the solution to make hits on target. I had to adjust the velocity to match the 300yard POI
and if that is what I need to do everytime I am at a new range. I will do it.
I was just under the impression that the Ballistics Apps avoided that. and gave you solutions based on your inputted data
that doesnt need to be trued? or adjusted as much as I had to. Sorry for these newbie questions. I just am trying to get
a better understanding of all this

 

[pbatesaz]

Just a couple of questions: What was your measured MV? Was the 2740 the MV that you used to get the correct poa=poi? Also, did you zero at 100 at the range where you took the training?
Just to clarify for you, your actual MV shouldn’t change due to altitude, but your downrange bullet speed will be greater at any given distance as you go up in altitude due to reduced air density (resistance). However, you might have to adjust MV either up or down to true your solver.

 

[donho00]

My MV was measured at 2862. average of 10 shots on a Magnetospeed
It was not tested at same altitude as the course was held at

 

[donho00]

Did confirm zero at 100. But I was terrible. lack of sleep and a 4 hour drive wrecks havoc on accuracy.

 

[pbatesaz]

OK, that (122 fps) seems excessive. I have not experienced that. I think Frank indicated in one of his training videos that a typical MV adjustment might be as much as 25 fps. Perhaps others will comment. Did you zero your rifle at 100 yards at the training range, and if so, was it exactly on at 100, or were you off a little? Here is why I ask. If I zeroed my rifle at 100 yards, but was about .36 inches high, my rifles true zero was 149 yards. At 1200 yards that is about 1 MOA difference in the calculated elevation adjustment. If you didn’t use the turret correction factor in Strelok, that 29+ MOA adjustment is high by about another 1.5 MOA because you are actually shooting about 30.5 MOA (29/.951). You can see how these things can add up. With regard to altitude, 4DOF requires that you enter physical altitude, uncorrected barometric pressure and temperature. Strelok allows you do do that or to enter density altitude. I really hope you are able to figure this out. Please let us know if you have a breakthrough. I am very curious why such a dramatic mv adjustment was necessary.

 

[donho00]

we dont have access to any local Long ranges. Closest is 1000yards about 3 hours away.

I will head to my local 100-200 range and double check a few things.
100 yard zero.
re-chrono
the test shooting at the dot at 100. Then dialing 30moa and shooting at the dot 3 times. then measuring(forgot what test was called)
But that is how I got my Correction Factor of .951
which really didnt help. Because standard Strelok or 4DOF doesnt have a field for this.

I will also shoot as good of a group as I can at 200 and measure how much higher it is

once I have all the double checked I will input it all back into 4DOF and head to the 3 hour range to see how close it is

 

[pbatesaz]

This might be worth a read:

https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/ballistic/hornady-4dof-technical-paper-v2.pdf

 

[donho00]

This might be worth a read:

https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/ballistic/hornady-4dof-technical-paper-v2.pdf

I was just scrolling through the Ballistic Calculator section and saw the Kestrel/4DOF and then saw the 15% discount code
I will really hate the site now!!!!LOL I am a sucker for deals!!

 

[pbatesaz]

Strelok Pro does have a way to enter a turret correction

 

[donho00]

Strelok Pro does have a way to enter a turret correction

the instructor did tell me that. But I only had the basic Strelok app
the instructor did input all my data into his Ketrel/AB Elite. Including my .951 CF
and all the dial ups were higher then the actual. We couldnt figure out why?

 

[Racer88]

the test shooting at the dot at 100. Then dialing 30moa and shooting at the dot 3 times. then measuring(forgot what test was called)
But that is how I got my Correction Factor of .951
which really didnt help. Because standard Strelok or 4DOF doesnt have a field for this.

Sounds like you're talking about the "tall target test" or turret click value validation.

Strelok Pro does, indeed, have a field for this. In fact, Strelok even has a turret click validation calculator built right in.

I posted a thread (and video) here: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ew-click-value-validation-calculator.6926340/

 

[MakeSawdust]

A 5%+/- tracking error seems excessive. That's likely where the error is. Try doing a tracking test that does not involve shooting and see if you still get the same results. If your scope is tracking and you back off 5% then you will be hitting low at 300 as indicated. Forget the correction factor and just plug in the magnetospeed velocity and range and see if it comes close to the actual results. I'm fishing here, but most of my correction factors for tracking are less than 2%.

 

[donho00]

A 5%+/- tracking error seems excessive. That's likely where the error is. Try doing a tracking test that does not involve shooting and see if you still get the same results. If your scope is tracking and you back off 5% then you will be hitting low at 300 as indicated. Forget the correction factor and just plug in the magnetospeed velocity and range and see if it comes close to the actual results. I'm fishing here, but most of my correction factors for tracking are less than 2%.

That's what i basically did. And it was way off.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I use my app(ballistic AE) often to get approximate holds.
Those are confirmed with actual dope from notes in areas I shoot at often.

The apps actually do really well once you get it some good data to run with.

I often have to true it a bit but nothing major.
Usually I just fiddle with the bullet BC.
Sometimes I use a G1 instead of a G7 and everything matches up perfectly.

Yeah, I like this too. Also, one day is rarely the same as the next time. There is always something off a click. I like to think of it as a +/- 1/3rd MOA or .1 MIL error rate on any given day. And that is before I fuck up more at the get go and figure it out.

 

[donho00]

Yeah, I like this too. Also, one day is rarely the same as the next time. There is always something off a click. I like to think of it as a +/- 1/3rd MOA or .1 MIL error rate on any given day. And that is before I fuck up more at the get go and figure it out.

I can understand 1/3 even 3/4 of a MOA. But mine was quite a bit more off. Unless my environmental were off?? Since i had printed a sheet from 4dof desktop version. At home before the course.
I caved in and ordered the 4DOF kestrel. With the 15% code i couldnt say no. I will try it and see how it lines up next time out. But will do some testing first

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Let us know

 

[Steel head]

The altitude parameter. Is that the actual measured feet above sea level? or is it based on DA?
I know based on the Kestral info of the instructor the altitude kept changing depending on weather
I was wondering do I input the actual measured altitude or the what the environmental make it?

I use density altitude and also a temp as I have an approximate temp correction value I use in my app.

You could do actual altitude, temp and humidity but DA is simpler with no negatives that I know of.

I’ll be honest, it took me a while to get competent with apps.
I also write down all general set up data and use that to double check my data entries in the app.
One funky number and your pulling hair and punching walls frustrated.
BTDT!

Yeah, I like this too. Also, one day is rarely the same as the next time. There is always something off a click. I like to think of it as a +/- 1/3rd MOA or .1 MIL error rate on any given day. And that is before I fuck up more at the get go and figure it out.

This!

I’m totally satisfied with .1-.2 variance.
That’s well within an unaccounted for elk fart or funky valley upswell.

 

[donho00]

I use density altitude and also a temp as I have an approximate temp correction value I use in my app.

You could do actual altitude, temp and humidity but DA is simpler with no negatives that I know of.

I’ll be honest, it took me a while to get competent with apps.
I also write down all general set up data and use that to double check my data entries in the app.
One funky number and your pulling hair and punching walls frustrated.
BTDT!




This!

I’m totally satisfied with .1-.2 variance.
That’s well within an unaccounted for elk fart or funky valley upswell.

It was my first time needing to use my apps. So I was not sure if trueing of some sort was necessary or not
I guess I was always under the assumption that I just input data. read chart. dial. and as long as I do my part. It will connect

I will have to get better data and hopefully will be shooting at the same place for enough times to get a handle on this

Regardless, I love this. Nothing more satisfying them watching the impact and then hearing the ding

 

[Dthomas3523]

How much was the DA changing during the day? You need something like 2,000 or more change in DA to matter much.

 

[donho00]

How much was the DA changing during the day? You need something like 2,000 or more change in DA to matter much.

based on the instructors Kestrel. It was going from 1600 to 1800+

I was not sure I should inputted the actual measured height or the floating number. I inputted the measured

 

[Steel head]

Regardless, I love this. Nothing more satisfying them watching the impact and then hearing the ding

So do I.
I rarely shoot my pistols or AR’s anymore.

Hitting steel at distance is my preferred drug.

How much was the DA changing during the day? You need something like 2,000 or more change in DA to matter much.

That depends.

A 1000 DA change where I mostly shoot will give you fits if you don’t correct for it.

It’s a .2 to .4 difference at my targets and that’s approximately 1/2 to 1 of target size.

At shorter distances I fully agree with you.

 

[donho00]

So do I.
I rarely shoot my pistols or AR’s anymore.

Hitting steel at distance is my preferred drug.


That depends.

A 1000 DA change where I mostly shoot will give you fits if you don’t correct for it.

It’s a .2 to .4 difference at my targets and that’s approximately 1/2 to 1 of target size.

At shorter distances I fully agree with you.

I always brings a blaster AR or Tavor to blast plates at 200 yards when my accurate stuff is cooling off
But I dont shoot pistols near as much anymore. I dont how much I will get into the longer distance stuff
Because the closest range is 3 hours. But I can see it being addictive.

 

[Steel head]

I always brings a blaster AR or Tavor to blast plates at 200 yards when my accurate stuff is cooling off
But I dont shoot pistols near as much anymore. I dont how much I will get into the longer distance stuff
Because the closest range is 3 hours. But I can see it being addictive.

I’m pretty lucky.
I have spots in eastern and western Washington and Oregon in forests and desert.
70 miles from me I can shoot a mile+.

 

[donho00]

I dont think there is any near me. The course does have a 1500. Once I get the Ballistic App sorted out
I will head back up there

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Damn if it didn't happen to me again yesterday. .244 Remington. The solution was 2.45 Mils though Strelok set it at 2.4. I was either a little high @2.5 or a little low @2.4. The plate was 10x8". That gave .2 over or under. At 2.4 one out of five was a low miss. At 2.5 one out of five was a high miss. Impacts were okay on windage. When it is like this you really need to stay tucked in with no mistakes. And it was hot as hell outside with a hot load. popped three primers out of the case on ejection. Crap shooting I call it.

 

[DellaDog]

Thats where the March 5-40x .05 turret comes in handy. I shoot a lot at 3-5” plates at 500 & the 1/2 clicks definitely pay off.
Though a PIA to dial all those clicks when moving out past 1k (and easy to get lost)

 

[pbatesaz]

Or screw the calculator and move the target 10 yards one way or the other?

 

[donho00]

Damn if it didn't happen to me again yesterday. .244 Remington. The solution was 2.45 Mils though Strelok set it at 2.4. I was either a little high @2.5 or a little low @2.4. The plate was 10x8". That gave .2 over or under. At 2.4 one out of five was a low miss. At 2.5 one out of five was a high miss. Impacts were okay on windage. When it is like this you really need to stay tucked in with no mistakes. And it was hot as hell outside with a hot load. popped three primers out of the case on ejection. Crap shooting I call it.

I think it was just an off day. I come to just realize I will not shoot well all the time.
In my mind I am hoping I can. But reality is some crappy days. Some great days

and a crappy day at 100yards, will be an nightmare at distance.