Advanced Marksmanship Total newbie question about the prone position

[TimK]

I'm very new to precision shooting, as will become obvious in a moment.

My rifle was coming way off target under recoil, so I read all I could find here and tried getting directly behind the rifle. Once I got myself pointing the same direction as the rifle, I discovered that the most natural feeling place for the butt was against my collar bone. Shooting with the butt there is unpleasant (.308, no brake). If I move the butt out to a more meaty part of my shoulder, it feels like I have to move my head way to the outside to get in line with the scope.

What's the most typical placement of the rifle butt, inboard or outboard?

If it makes any difference, I'm shooting off a bipod.

 

[ah6oy]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Work your position more. Getting flat on the ground and square behind the rifle isn't the answer. Flat ground isn't reality either. Your front should be up some so the butt of rifle contacts chest also. Not all positions and definately army gear can have you using whats figured as standard. You might even end up using the armpit for the butt. What ever it is its on target before and pretty much so after the shot.

Also being in line with the rifle isn't what you want. You want to have a natural position for being on target not soing anything but laying there not using your miscles.

 

[mis-guided child2]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Lowcrawl- place the crackpipe on the ground and slowly step away.

 

[mis-guided child2]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Tim, as we are all built different, the sweet spot on you
will be a little different than anyone elses. However it is the spot the
that causes the rifle to recoil straight back into a solid built NPA position and leave very little to no lateral movement of the rifle muzzle after recoil.
If your particular sweet spot causes pain obviously that's bad mojo. I would
consider a quailty recoil pad. Adding some lead to your stock while
the old pad is off will also reduce felt recoil. A brake or a can will
get you there as well.
Make the adjustments to the one size fits all rifle, don't compromise the position to fit the rifle.


Of course you could have your collar bone relocated. Just saying.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Tim, I just started this type of shooting a year ago. I must say my first few times out I hurt so bad after 20 rounds I couldn't shoot much more. What I found was moving the rifle in closer to the centerline of my body helped a lot. It got the corner of the butt of the rifle off my colar bone.

If you haven't yet, sign up for the online training. It is great stuff! I actually posted pics there of myself in prone position and got some feedback on how to make adjustments. A few days after those changes I went out and shot a match, shooting over 80 rounds, and not a bit sore. Subtle changes can mean a lot.

 

[TimK]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: misguided child2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowcrawl- place the crackpipe on the ground and slowly step away. </div></div>

Pretty funny, that made my morning! I read his post and concluded that one of us was very, very confused. Glad it wasn't me.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Tim,

I suspect you are tall and fit. Not saying I have it all figured out, but I do rest my 300WSM on my collar bone. It's the only way I can get straight behind the rifle. Guys that I shoot with can elevate their upper body so the rifle rests on their pectoral, below the collar bone. Being tall when I get that high my cheek is almost toughing the back of my action.

Hope that makes sense,

-Chris

 

[TimK]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tim,

I suspect you are tall and fit. Not saying I have it all figured out, but I do rest my 300WSM on my collar bone. It's the only way I can get straight behind the rifle. Guys that I shoot with can elevate their upper body so the rifle rests on their pectoral, below the collar bone. Being tall when I get that high my cheek is almost toughing the back of my action.

Hope that makes sense,

-Chris </div></div>

Not tall, but very fit. I think I'll put a pad and a brake on it before it kills me.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Believe it or not, you will get used to it. The problem with a pad is it changes the length of pull, and therefore the dynamics of the thing. The problem with a break is they have a tendency to mask poor shooting habits. And they are obnoxiously loud. Have you seen these videos? I really enjoy watching Jacob shoot. Wish I could get as comfortable behind the rifle as he looks.

Where are you located?

-Chris

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Once you find the right spot, you won't need the brake.

Most rifles seem to come with a decent pad these days. If you've got one of the old style hard plastic, then yes, get a good pad. But once I found the right spot, I was OK with the stock pad, too.

 

[TimK]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Believe it or not, you will get used to it. The problem with a pad is it changes the length of pull, and therefore the dynamics of the thing. The problem with a break is they have a tendency to mask poor shooting habits. And they are obnoxiously loud. Have you seen these videos? I really enjoy watching Jacob shoot. Wish I could get as comfortable behind the rifle as he looks.

Where are you located?

-Chris </div></div>

Watching those videos is what got me started down this road of trying to figure it out. Good stuff.

I'm in Woodland Park. It's 20 miles west of Colorado Springs. I shoot the USPSA and steel challenge matches in Pueblo regularly and am getting geared up for the precision rifle matches. How about you?

 

[ah6oy]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: misguided child2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowcrawl- place the crackpipe on the ground and slowly step away. </div></div>

Pretty funny, that made my morning! I read his post and concluded that one of us was very, very confused. Glad it wasn't me.</div></div>

I don't smoke crack or exchange rude comments. If you're taking a bench resting approach to firing instead of a sniping approach with different positions then you still are going to need to find a position where your body and rifle are on target with no effort. This is with your position evidently adjusted to eliminate the butt of the rifle being on your collar bone. Shoting in the army it ends up where you are working around protective IBA gear. I imagine if you start getting more dedicated and trying stiff shooting jackets you'll find you are going to be adjusting once again where your rifle is on your shoulder. I really think you are getting too low if you are on your collar bone. Thats why I mentioned being flat on the ground which it sounds like you are doing to be contacting your collarbone. With all the different bipods I've got around 4 or 5 bipods of varying heights and all of them allow me adjustment to get them high enough. Some guys like to prop their upper torso up when shooting. You might try that. Just don't be afraid to raise the bipod even if it has to go to the max height. Just take your time and probably best for you to do some reading on fundamentals for competition shooting since that's where I think most of the material good for you to learn is concentrated.

Again I've never smoked crack but from what I can tell plenty have and still do. If you feel like apologizing feel free to. For now I'm done with you clowns.

 

[mis-guided child2]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

It was intended in good fun low crawl. Not personal.
Your post are normally coherent and written well.
The one at the top? Not so much.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Tim,

The real problem here <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> the bipod. Take the bipod off, for just a moment, and build an unsupported prone position to get a feel for a position which considers bone support, muscular relaxation, and NPA. What I'm assuming is that you don't know how to build a proper position and are using the bipod without regard to the elements and factors of a steady position. Without an understanding for what's important, the bipod will undermine good shooting.

 

[TimK]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tim,

The real problem here <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> the bipod. Take the bipod off, for just a moment, and build an unsupported prone position to get a feel for a position which considers bone support, muscular relaxation, and NPA. What I'm assuming is that you don't know how to build a proper position and are using the bipod without regard to the elements and factors of a steady position. Without an understanding for what's important, the bipod will undermine good shooting. </div></div>

Interesting idea...I'll try it. Can you link me to a pic of someone doing it correctly?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Tim,

Go to the United States Army Marksmanship Unit web site and link to Service Rifle Section, then, scroll down to BRM Classes and double click. You'll be downloading a PowerPoint presentation on basic marksmanship. In the "Positions" session you'll see a description for a good prone position. Without a coach, the presentation is not going to be the aid it could be to get you off to a good start, yet, it's still better than wandering around the important concepts to good shooting as you're doing now.

 

[TimK]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tim,

Go to the United States Army Marksmanship Unit web site and link to Service Rifle Section, then, scroll down to BRM Classes and double click. You'll be downloading a PowerPoint presentation on basic marksmanship. In the "Positions" session you'll see a description for a good prone position. Without a coach, the presentation is not going to be the aid it could be to get you off to a good start, yet, it's still better than wandering around the important concepts to good shooting as you're doing now. </div></div>

That was pretty good. Unfortunately, the PPS was screwed up, but I got the sense of it. There wasn't much there I didn't already know (been reading marksmanship manuals for years), but I picked up a couple of things. I'll try it without the bipod and see what feels different compared to my current position.

This detail was not clear in the pics, but from what I could see it appears that the body is not pointing directly in line with the rifle. It looks like the rifle is pointing off to the left of the axis of the shooter. This position is very comfortable for me and allows a natural placement of the butt on my shoulder. Also, I shoot well in it. However, the rifle comes way off target during recoil. When I get aligned directly with the rifle, it recoils straight back (well, it's better)but the position of the butt is terrible. If it's in a decent place as far as handling the recoil, my head is not naturally positioned at all. If my head is positioned naturally, the but is on my collar bone and the recoil is pretty punishing.

Some part of my problem is likely that I'm trying to make a garden variety 700 fit me, and it doesn't.

Thanks for the link, I'll be referencing it again.

 

[2manygunz]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tim,

The real problem here <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> the bipod. Take the bipod off, for just a moment, and build an unsupported prone position to get a feel for a position which considers bone support, muscular relaxation, and NPA. What I'm assuming is that you don't know how to build a proper position and are using the bipod without regard to the elements and factors of a steady position. Without an understanding for what's important, the bipod will undermine good shooting. </div></div>

Nice tip. Going to try this myself.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

The bipod allows for a straight behind the gun position, while unsupported or sling supported prone, which demands the non-firing hand somewhere out on the hand-guard, does not permit a straight behind the gun position. Remember though, any position must be muscularly relaxed, adjusted for NPA, and use bone/artificial support rather than muscle.

My point is simply that without some basic prone marksmanship skill, developed without bipod use, really good shooting from any combination of bone and artificial support will continue to allude the aspiring shooter since, to a degree, recognition of proper NPA adjustment will not be discernable.

Just as the high magnification scope does not assure the shooter actually knows where the barrel is pointed, the bipod does not assure the muzzle will be in the same relationship to the shooter as the bullet clears it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

I am tall, and I have some physical issues (like a fused sternum and a left shoulder joint which is bound by scar tissue), which preclude following a lot of the advice about proper positions etc., and also make me somewhat more vulnerable to recoil.

Like you, my most comfortable position places the butt pad against the collarbone.

I use a 1" Limbsaver Slip-On pad. It provides needed LOP extension, and tends to soften the recoil cycle, but doesn't help with bipod hop. Personally, I have no use for muzzle brakes, or for chamberings which require them. I find that the Limbsaver permits me to shoot chamberings up to .30-'06, including one which is in the 8lb class.

Of course, the bipod hop problem remains. I evolved a technique which tames it utterly, using a conventional sling.

With the rifle sitting on the bipod and a flat surface, I adjust the sling so it hangs down fore and aft beneath the rifle but doesn't reach the supporting surface.

I then get into position behind the rifle, insert my left arm between rifle and sling, reach back to grab the rifle's butt, and lean down on my elbow so my upper body weight bears down on the sling, rifle, and bipod.

From this point, I establish a conventional NPA and follow the conventional firing sequence. As the recoil cycle unfolds, the rifle is restrained from hop by the body's weight bearing down against any vertical motion.

Properly executed, this technique can even allow the shooter to capture the bullet's trace and follow it to the target.

The best part is, nobody needs to be half crippled like I am to make it work.

Greg

 

[45.308]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

Not sure if this helps but when I first started precision shooting recoiling right was my first oops and it was rifle not deep into my shoulder pocket, more contact on the right side of the butt end, as rifle came back more contact on the right of the butt pivoting on bipod and would recoil right.

After I got that fixed, shot good for a while then I found myself rolling my check weld CW and pushing to the right on butt and the bipod acts like a pivot and recoiled to the left. Now my head is erect and weld is down.

Also, as I squeezed my bean bag with my left hand, I was tensing my whole upper body squeezing my shoulders together like doing shrugs in the gym, the more tense I was the more left rifle recoiled. I now lay my hand under my bean bag palm up and roll my hand more than squeeze to adjust. So far has worked for me.

What I did was, after each shot I did not move for quite a long time with follow through and thought about everything that just happened, took many notes, reviewed them between shots, made adjustments, took notes, reviewed, repeat. Over time, I figured some things out.

Hope this helps

 

[TCA4570]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

As many methods as there are shooters.
We are all different.
Sounds like an old trappers seminar in the 80's.
"This is what works for me."
"Works for you, great."
"If not, find a way that works."

Shooting prone, doesn't always mean flat, and level.
Did you try setting up gun and just crawling into it like BR guy's?
Practice with bags may help too.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

45.308 - I think you just gave me some good ideas on the bipod hop. Particularly cheek weld. I'll have to see if I can get the gun centered more so my head stays straighter, not leaning so far over. Thanks.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Total newbie question about the prone position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCA4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As many methods as there are shooters.
We are all different.
Sounds like an old trappers seminar in the 80's.
"This is what works for me."
"Works for you, great."
"If not, find a way that works."

Shooting prone, doesn't always mean flat, and level.
Did you try setting up gun and just crawling into it like BR guy's?
Practice with bags may help too.


</div></div>

A shooter's technique may be divergent from others: however, the elements and factors of a steady position, any position, are the same for all.