trainer gun or ammo?

[bradpierson26]

Im sure that this has been covered before, so please excuse the question.
What is the general consensus on trainer rifles?
i have a trainer all picked out: savage MKII BTV with a stock modification, bedded, falcon 4-14 mil/mil, harris 6-9" leg notch, and cheek pack.
That will run me about $8-900. but my buddy says i should spend the $800 on ammo for my .308 and just get the extra trigger time on that. $800 will get me about 30 boxes of hornady 168g bthp a-max's. (my gun's favorite)
i regularly shoot wolf match grade 40g .22lrs out of my hopped up 10/22 so i have some stashed up. but my gun store has it in stock for $4.95/50 rnds.

is a trainer worth it?
**im always looking for any way to validate a new gun to the girl friend...hint hint

 

[slimguns]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Maybe not in the short run with the $8-900 on ammo instead view but in the long run, hell yeah!! I've saved so much money since I switched to a .22 and the last time I shot my 308 my groups were halfed at 200 yards. I am actually making headway on calling the wind now.

I believe most people have forgot the value .22 has for training. It's up to you but remember that militaries around the world have used .22 to train with.

This is said with the understanding that to train with your "actual" tool is the best case scenerio but that for most of us cost has to be considered. 500 rounds of decent 308=$500, 5,000 rounds Wolf Match=$500. You decide.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

We have 22lr precision tactical matches out here. That allows many of us to shoot more matches. The stages are similar to the CF matches but shorter distances. More trigger time is always a good thing.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

get the trainer. you'll learn more than you think that can be easily transferred over to the .308 at usually more than 1/2 the price, and have a hell of a fun time doin it.

 

[LS6TT]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

you can find a trainer cheaper and just as accurate

 

[SledDog]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

There's some definite satisfaction putting 5 22 shots inside a dime sized hole as well.

 

[nelson34]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

are you against reloading? for the $800 you could easily buy the reloading tools needed and make 30 boxes of the 168gr a max's you like(probably have money left over). everything you load after that gets cheaper. but its always hard to pass up a new gun purchase and seems like any reason is good enough to put a new gun/caliber in the safe.

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

I went with the 22 trainer and haven't looked back. I did look at how much reloading consumables have gone up today. It is still cheaper than buying factory quality loads, but it is not cheap by any stretch. In fact, almost double what it was a year ago. The 22 will teach you the same things at much less cost - after getting the rifle.

 

[hatidua]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Once I got several good .22 rifles, I more or less lost interest in my .308's

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hatidua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once I got several good .22 rifles, I more or less lost interest in my .308's

</div></div>

wierd how that happens, but it does. somthing about puttin that little pill in a 2" or less circle at 100 yards that's very satisfying.

plu (and i may be off aon the numbers) but i think a 22 at 200 yards simulates the .308 at 425 yards

if you do get it put an adjustable trigger in it if it doesn't already have one, a 20 moa base and good glass. a bipod comes in handy also. put some $ towards some ammo and you'll be happy.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

i picked up a .22 marlin for $200 and a few boxes of 500rnds for 12 a piece when you could get them. I fail to see the need for an $800 .22. They can only get so accurate to a point. The main 2 reasons most guys get a 22 is cost and training. Go that route and get a reloading setup with the left over cash. JMO

 

[buffybuster]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hatidua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once I got several good .22 rifles, I more or less lost interest in my .308's

</div></div>

wierd how that happens, but it does. somthing about puttin that little pill in a 2" or less circle at 100 yards that's very satisfying.

plu (and i may be off aon the numbers) but i think <span style="font-weight: bold">a 22 at 200 yards simulates the .308 at 425 yards</span>

if you do get it put an adjustable trigger in it if it doesn't already have one, a 20 moa base and good glass. a bipod comes in handy also. put some $ towards some ammo and you'll be happy.

</div></div>

These are approximate wind drift values. For bullet trajectory there is an approximate 4X multipler for a 22lr/.308Win: 100/400yd, 200/800yd, 250/1000yd drop values.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hatidua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once I got several good .22 rifles, I more or less lost interest in my .308's

</div></div>

wierd how that happens, but it does. somthing about puttin that little pill in a 2" or less circle at 100 yards that's very satisfying.

plu (and i may be off aon the numbers) but i think <span style="font-weight: bold">a 22 at 200 yards simulates the .308 at 425 yards</span>

if you do get it put an adjustable trigger in it if it doesn't already have one, a 20 moa base and good glass. a bipod comes in handy also. put some $ towards some ammo and you'll be happy.

</div></div>

These are approximate wind drift values. For bullet trajectory there is an approximate 4X multipler for a 22lr/.308Win: 100/400yd, 200/800yd, 250/1000yd drop values.</div></div>

i like those numbers even more. i have a chart of the 22 to 308 conversion somewhere, i just have to find it. now that i'm doing the rimfire thing more, i think it'd be nice to have handy.

 

[Fezick]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Based purely on trajectories, here is a comparison of .22lr and .308

BC=.15---BC=.462

.22lr---.308
range---comparable
(yds)---(yds)

75----241
100---368
125---484
150---589
175---689
200---783
225---872
250---959
275---1042
300---1123

 

[clmayfield]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unconventional</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based purely on trajectories, here is a comparison of .22lr and .308

BC=.15---BC=.462

.22lr---.308
range---comparable
(yds)---(yds)

75----241
100---368
125---484
150---589
175---689
200---783
225---872
250---959
275---1042
300---1123
</div></div>

It is more comparable to look at windage... and even more so to compare that windage to expected accuracy. Reading gravity is easy. Reading wind is hard.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

I have a 90 year old Savage Model 23A,full sized stock,dovetail sights,best $125 I've ever spent.Bore is Perfect and still has 95% of the original bluing.It is a lot of fun getting back to the basics and using the Iron sights.

 

[bohem]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Definitely get the trainer, shooting long range precisely is not about shooting only over 600 or 1000 or 1500 or 2500y.

Shooting LR precisely is about stretching the limits of a specific platform to it's max. For a 308 that's about 1000y, for a 375 CT it's 3k+

If you practice with a match grade air rifle at 100y you're applicable to roughly what a 22lr is doing at 250y and what a 308 is doing at 1250y.

Another consideration is that if you get really jammed up for money at some point and MUST sell something, the trainer rifle is still worth 600 bucks. $800 worth of ammo now is worth about $75 in fired brass.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

The .308 ammo may be good for your marksmanship, but the wear and tear it puts on your rifle would be better served by investing in the rimfire rifle and rimfire ammo.

$800-900 for a .22LR is way excessive. A basic, barebones, plastic stocked, blued Savage MKII sporter weight with an economy scope and mounts is clearly adequate. I bought mine used, put on an $80 Tasco, and I doubt the whole shebang cost me more than $250 in toto.

A .22LR is just so basically an accurate chambering that something needs to be significantly wrong with the rifle for it to underperform where marksmanship practice and training shooting is involved. I have found that for my purpose, even Fed .22LR GMM is overkill. The CCI Blue Box Standard Velocity .22LR Target stuff goes for $22 and change per brick, including tax, and shoots just as well, but saves about a dozen bucks a brick.

For training, put you money where you get the most bang per buck, and keep the centerfire rifle and its bore for more serious usage.

Greg

 

[95LTZ]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Just my opinion. I have a bad habit of lifting my head right after breaking the shot. I feel that the general quality of centerfire rifles is very high so this flaw doesn't show up as much. Now if I pull that cheap stuff on a rimfire due to the longer bbl time of the bullet the groups are all over the place. The rimfire forces me to do the things that I should be doing on the centerfire. Yes, there is a good feeling about getting proper executed shots to go where you intend them to go while using a rimfire. Also I feel it's much easier to allow new shooters to have a good experience when they first shoot a rimfire.
Semper Fi

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unconventional</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based purely on trajectories, here is a comparison of .22lr and .308

BC=.15---BC=.462

.22lr---.308
range---comparable
(yds)---(yds)

75----241
100---368
125---484
150---589
175---689
200---783
225---872
250---959
275---1042
300---1123
</div></div>

It is more comparable to look at windage... and even more so to compare that windage to expected accuracy. Reading gravity is easy. Reading wind is hard.</div></div>

thanks, i have to believe that would warrant it's own thread...

 

[pickpick]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

I only have remmy plstform rifles, but would like to buy a 22lr trainer. I feel that I would be better off with a full size platform for this, correct?. i have been looking at the remmy model 5. If I am reading about it right, it is a full size rifle but, has a different bolt throw than my cenerfire rifles. I would love to have the model that has the full size bolt and all but, I can't justify $800 for a 22lr. Is the model 5 a good route to go for a trainer?

 

[bradpierson26]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

im living in the dorms now so reloading is out of the queston for prolly 12-24 months. i have another job interview set up for this week so money isnt tight but its by no means abundant. the only reason the riflw will cost so much is mainly the scope. i want the same turrets and reticle as my .308 gun. that means $350 for a scope. and if im paying that much for a scope, i might as well get a decent rifle. i guess i have no problem sharing bipods from rifle to rifle.
I saw the savage BTV that i want on sale for $299 at Dicks this week. that means the total is like $750 including rings and base. im not opposed to paying this much and right now my time is at a premium so i wont be shooting much in the near future = more time to save....

BTW, thanks for all the responses

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

The Tasco VAR624X42M is a MilDot 6-24 power Varmint/Target scop, with covered 1/4" click target knobs, focuses down to 15yd, 75+MOA of elevation; it's got the things I want and retails well under $100.

Before dismissing this scope, it really pays to try one. It's not just for .22LR's; my 1000yd custom match rifle has one atop it.

I have four, and use them in the same applications where I used to use the Leupold I sold to buy the four. Three years into it, no complaints, just the observation that it could be somewhat brighter. Aside from the lack of a braggable pricetag, it's pretty much in the same ballpark as the pricier scopes. In essence, it gives me hope that the Chinese are finally mastering the riflescope trade, much the way the Japanese did decades past.

Others have taken this advice, and reported back here to confirm.

Greg

 

[frog5215]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

The Savage with an AccuTrigger is among the best values on the market at present. It's not really a match trigger, but WAY better than a rifle in that price range is expected to have.
The barrels are universally praised.

Pickpick, the Model 5 is Serbian (Zastava)and has been previously marketed by Charles Daly,they also made Mini MKX Mausers for Interarms. I have not shot one, but would expect very good value.

As a physician in my mid 50s my taste is for higher end things like Krico, Anschutz, or CZ, but these entry level guns offer service out of proportion to their modest cost.

Brad, money spent on optics is rarely wasted.

 

[banks74]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

I vote the 22 trainer. The more ya shoot the more ya save. You will be able to shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds for way cheaper than your .308.

While it doesn't replace shooting your .308, it does make it cheaper to shoot and get practice in general. 1000 rds of match 22 = $100. 1000rds of factory match 308= $1000ish.

 

[bradpierson26]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a physician in my mid 50s my taste is for higher end things </div></div>

haha, i fully understand that.
as a college student with just 1 job, i think my tastes exceed my years.

i am lookin forward to picking up a cz 452 varmint in .17hmr for those zombie squirrels

 

[farmbo]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Definitely get the trainer.

 

[rich56]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

Go trainer. I use full size .22s (504T, 40x,Sako FinnFire Varmint, Kimber 82G, 10/22 w/24'Bull barrel)) for close range practice for my Remington 700s and AR15 Varmint that I use for tactical matches. This allows me to use my local plice range (25yds) instead of the 1 1/4 hr trip to the HP range.

 

[CL1KKL4C]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

+1 on the trainer, rimfires are always a great time too. I recongnize your screen name from RFC, what happened to the Savage MKII-G? I think thats what you had correct?

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

I'll put in a word here for the CZ. I got the 452 Varmit in 22LR, added a R/T 20MOA base, a YoDave trigger kit, and put a Nikon 4.5-14 scope on it. The CZ is a bit more initially, but I am really glad I saved a bit longer and got it. It is a shooter. I have been looking for a scope that is more like the scopes on my centerfires.

Greg....Thanks for the tip on the little Tasco. I think I will try one.

 

[Longguns]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

+ 1 on the CZ. Wood is beautiful,weapon shoots Extremely well and will be a pleasure to shoot. Put a good glass on it and you will not be disappointed. CZ 453 or 452. Have the 453 with a 6x18 Burris and weapon is very accurate. Has a set trigger and without set trigger is noy bad.

 

[bradpierson26]

Re: trainer gun or ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL1KKL4C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what happened to the Savage MKII-G? I think thats what you had correct?
</div></div>

its ok, not amazing. the sporter barrel and sythetic stock arent a great combo. she is good to 50yds but tails off quickly after just several shots at 100yds.
i enjoy it as more of a plinker.

If i did the trigger shim(no accutrigger) and bedded it, it may perform better but i wanted an excuse to justify a new rifle. haha