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Rifle Scopes Tremor3 reticle ?
- Thread starter scorpio 25
- Start date
The Tremor 3 would be my first choice for a "fast acquisition reticle without dialing."
But it would also be one of my last choices because it costs $400+ extra for a flawed method that doesn't translate over very well to the civilian world.
Holding over shortcuts precise aiming. Time of flight dots are a shortcut for precise wind-reading. It's very good at hitting large targets (people) in short periods of time and middle-ranged distances. (0-600 yards). It is not a good method at all for longer distances.
First, if you are relying on spotting your own impacts and calling your own shots, the closer the shot is to the center of the scope, the easier it will be to spot, and you will be able to see trace throughout the flight of the bullet if you cannot see splash. The Horus grid relies on having a spotter to see your splash and give you a correction.
Second, people tend to mess up their hold-overs on longer range targets. I remember going to All Army and watching someone miss the 6 foot board because they didn't count the right number of mils mid-string. Your brain naturally only separates things into groups of 1s, 2s, and 3s. Look at a group of 5 of something, and your brain doesn't say "That's 5", it says "Thats 2, and 3, which equals 5"
Third, all of the features in the scope are useless for the most part. I am not speed-ranging with 12 inch plates or peoples heads in my civilian job. Nor am I shooting that many movers, unless it's a PRS stage, and then I'll get a precise hold for it and the stage.
Fourth, in spite of all the negatives I have to say about it, I think it is a decent reticle. The wind-dots are a nice thought, and those that use them, love them. I think they are too big, and are offset below the mil-lines anyways. And with any good caliber, they become pretty gross adjustments of like 4 miles per hour, which a huge margin of error. They also operate under the general assumption that what the wind is doing at the rifle, is what it is doing at the target.
In conclusion, it's not a bad reticle. It's just not worth the price, and other mil-tree reticles give you the option of holding over, but do not emphasize it like the Horus system does.
But it would also be one of my last choices because it costs $400+ extra for a flawed method that doesn't translate over very well to the civilian world.
Holding over shortcuts precise aiming. Time of flight dots are a shortcut for precise wind-reading. It's very good at hitting large targets (people) in short periods of time and middle-ranged distances. (0-600 yards). It is not a good method at all for longer distances.
First, if you are relying on spotting your own impacts and calling your own shots, the closer the shot is to the center of the scope, the easier it will be to spot, and you will be able to see trace throughout the flight of the bullet if you cannot see splash. The Horus grid relies on having a spotter to see your splash and give you a correction.
Second, people tend to mess up their hold-overs on longer range targets. I remember going to All Army and watching someone miss the 6 foot board because they didn't count the right number of mils mid-string. Your brain naturally only separates things into groups of 1s, 2s, and 3s. Look at a group of 5 of something, and your brain doesn't say "That's 5", it says "Thats 2, and 3, which equals 5"
Third, all of the features in the scope are useless for the most part. I am not speed-ranging with 12 inch plates or peoples heads in my civilian job. Nor am I shooting that many movers, unless it's a PRS stage, and then I'll get a precise hold for it and the stage.
Fourth, in spite of all the negatives I have to say about it, I think it is a decent reticle. The wind-dots are a nice thought, and those that use them, love them. I think they are too big, and are offset below the mil-lines anyways. And with any good caliber, they become pretty gross adjustments of like 4 miles per hour, which a huge margin of error. They also operate under the general assumption that what the wind is doing at the rifle, is what it is doing at the target.
In conclusion, it's not a bad reticle. It's just not worth the price, and other mil-tree reticles give you the option of holding over, but do not emphasize it like the Horus system does.
Thoughtful reply... Would you have a similar reply to the H58/59 is similar to Tremor 2,3 ?
what about the more generic, or non-Hourus TM Christmas tree reticles, like on Burris, Kathles, Athlon?
what about the more generic, or non-Hourus TM Christmas tree reticles, like on Burris, Kathles, Athlon?
Basically all the costs associated with having Horus brand reticles still applies to H58 and H59. It doesn't make any scope $400 better. The one exception would be on an M110 or SCAR H if I was going overseas; where accuracy isn't going to be as important, and the quick ranging feature might actually be useful. (Getting hits anywhere on Torso-sized targets vs small steel plates in a match or vital zones of game animals.)
On other brand scopes, I will take a Christmas tree when it is offered. I have a SKMR 2 on my Khales 624i, and I have used the hold-overs for pigs out to 400-500 yards. Basically, it comes down to the fact that holdovers are situationally dictated, whereas the Horus tends to emphasize it as a do-everything solution.
Furthermore, the military has bought into the Horus brand in large part due to the training package that came a long with them. The courses that are taught are structured around showcasing the strengths of the reticle, and are usually young soldiers first exposure to Long Range shooting, so they are easily swayed by a good sales pitch. (That's not to say that the reticle doesn't have its merits, or that the training they receive is bad. But they are showcasing a whole entire system to new shooters in a way that overstates it's strengths.)
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Thank you for your post good info.Any thoughts on the G2 reticle from GA precision?
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I like the G2DMR reticle. It has a tree when you want it, the fine milling scale, and you don't get the Horus surcharge.
When I pick an optic, it's because of the mechanical and optical package. Reticle choice is a factor I consider when trying to differentiate between 2 or 3 very similar scopes.
When I pick an optic, it's because of the mechanical and optical package. Reticle choice is a factor I consider when trying to differentiate between 2 or 3 very similar scopes.
I have tried several hold reticles, H58, H59, H37 and a Premier reticle and sold or changed the reticles for most all the reasons mentioned by BangBang.
The reticles always seemed useless to me because if i had a one shot situation, I always dialed the elevation unless it was a shot inside of say 350 yards.
For the past year, I been giving the TreMor3 a hard look. I bet I've watched Todd's instructional video 20 times. The wind dots and the small aiming dot in the center of reticle got me thinking i needed to give it a try. So I gave a friend of mine a call that uses the TreMor3. After spending some time learning more about the reticle and taking some shots holding and using the wind dots, I went home and ordered a TreMor3.
I have been to the range with my new NF TreMor3 two times. First trip left me pleased but by no means thrilled with the purchase. About the only thing I was very happy with was the small aiming dot in center of reticle. The aiming dot is a advantage over solid cross hairs on small targets.
My second trip was very good session. I was able to easily use the reticle on 1moa target to 560 yards and 1.5 moa targets to 700 yards holding 4 mils with my 6 creed. With that said, I doubt i would hold past the 4 mil line.
I was also able to test the wind dots. Wind was light 5-10mph. That said, the wind dots were spot on.
At the range I shoot at, we have a 600 yard 1.5 moa diamond shape plate that seems to always be a 3 or 9 o clock wind shot. I was able to go 10 for 10 on this target holding 3 mils and using the 5 and 10mph dots. When the wind was lite, i used the 5 and when I felt the wind pick up a little, I held between the 5 and 10 dots and when I felt wind picked up a little more closer to 10mph, moved to the second wind dot. I'm looking very forward to shooting in some 10 to 20 mph wind to test the wind dots.
As of now I'm so pleased with the TreMor3, Im trying to decide between a 4~16 or a 5~25 for my 6 creed gas gun.
The reticles always seemed useless to me because if i had a one shot situation, I always dialed the elevation unless it was a shot inside of say 350 yards.
For the past year, I been giving the TreMor3 a hard look. I bet I've watched Todd's instructional video 20 times. The wind dots and the small aiming dot in the center of reticle got me thinking i needed to give it a try. So I gave a friend of mine a call that uses the TreMor3. After spending some time learning more about the reticle and taking some shots holding and using the wind dots, I went home and ordered a TreMor3.
I have been to the range with my new NF TreMor3 two times. First trip left me pleased but by no means thrilled with the purchase. About the only thing I was very happy with was the small aiming dot in center of reticle. The aiming dot is a advantage over solid cross hairs on small targets.
My second trip was very good session. I was able to easily use the reticle on 1moa target to 560 yards and 1.5 moa targets to 700 yards holding 4 mils with my 6 creed. With that said, I doubt i would hold past the 4 mil line.
I was also able to test the wind dots. Wind was light 5-10mph. That said, the wind dots were spot on.
At the range I shoot at, we have a 600 yard 1.5 moa diamond shape plate that seems to always be a 3 or 9 o clock wind shot. I was able to go 10 for 10 on this target holding 3 mils and using the 5 and 10mph dots. When the wind was lite, i used the 5 and when I felt the wind pick up a little, I held between the 5 and 10 dots and when I felt wind picked up a little more closer to 10mph, moved to the second wind dot. I'm looking very forward to shooting in some 10 to 20 mph wind to test the wind dots.
As of now I'm so pleased with the TreMor3, Im trying to decide between a 4~16 or a 5~25 for my 6 creed gas gun.
btw, great thread, and no preaching and calling the other guy an idot. Love it. Too many threads are based upon brand or reticle religion. I am trying to learn. I use the T2, H58/59, some non-proprietory Hours-like reticles and basic mil and MOA reticles, so clearly, I am not dogmatic. I also build military replicas, so many times have what the Navy or Army provided, and thus a lot of Leupold and S&B, and now Tremor 2/3.
My follow-up question is: How do you, stwcattle, find the difference between the H58/59 and the T2/3. To me, they are very similar, and maybe I am just not using the wind-dots like I think they are designed?
Unless I was able to try it out for a while I don't think I will be changing out my ret anytime soon.and I know no one who has one (tremor 3).
The H59 replaced the solid crosshair of the H58 with a center aiming dot. Additionally 1 mil was added to each side of the reticle pattern.
The first difference between the T2 and T3 is the above the center line, the T3 has leads for 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10mph movers. Below the center line are .2 mil hash marks on the T3.
The other main difference between the TreMors, is as you move down the reticle to 10 mils, with the T3 you have solid mil lines ever 2 mils. Above that line you have .2 mil lines and below the line you have your wind dots. On the T2, no line so wind dots and mil line are on the same plane. Therefore with T2 only a mil line every 1.0 mil versus a mil line every .2 mils with the T3 making holds much more precise with T3 if choosing to not use the wind dots. For the most part, I only use the wind dots in 3 or 9 o clock wind. I use the .2 mil lines the rest of the time.
With the T3 all dots are wind dots and all line are mil lines. No confusion. With the T2, the forth wind indicator was a + causing some confusion. With the T3, the forth wind indicator is a dot, just larger.
Below 10 mils, i honestly dont know the difference between the two TreMors due to I dont use the reticle much below 4 mils.
Going off memory, I hope I got all that right.
The first difference between the T2 and T3 is the above the center line, the T3 has leads for 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10mph movers. Below the center line are .2 mil hash marks on the T3.
The other main difference between the TreMors, is as you move down the reticle to 10 mils, with the T3 you have solid mil lines ever 2 mils. Above that line you have .2 mil lines and below the line you have your wind dots. On the T2, no line so wind dots and mil line are on the same plane. Therefore with T2 only a mil line every 1.0 mil versus a mil line every .2 mils with the T3 making holds much more precise with T3 if choosing to not use the wind dots. For the most part, I only use the wind dots in 3 or 9 o clock wind. I use the .2 mil lines the rest of the time.
With the T3 all dots are wind dots and all line are mil lines. No confusion. With the T2, the forth wind indicator was a + causing some confusion. With the T3, the forth wind indicator is a dot, just larger.
Below 10 mils, i honestly dont know the difference between the two TreMors due to I dont use the reticle much below 4 mils.
Going off memory, I hope I got all that right.
Using my T3 ATACR 5-25 for groundhog shooting at long to ELR distances. Without a spotter, I will not get the full value from it but for extreme distance where strikes can be picked up by me, the followup shot is quick and deadly. I look forward to someday taking a class to learn how to use the other features.
great topic. I just received my ATACR 5-25 in the T3. Love the idea behind it. The rifle its going on is at Patriot Valley Arms right now so i can't shoot it, but ive been doing as much reading and viewing as i can on it, and some times, just stare at the sample reticle to get as familiar with the look as possible. Hoping to hear a few more educated opinions from people that have spent time behind it, good or bad..
I have large 11x17 prints of the reticles at my desk and in the garage. It really helped me to see them daily. I still remember the first time I saw a T2, it was like reading hieroglyphics.
I ran an H58 for a couple years, then briefly upgraded to H59, then TreMor2, now TreMor 3. Fair disclaimer: I might be a fan boy for Horus. But I tend to agree with BangBangBlatBlat on several of his points; specifically in his hierarchy of value from an optic. A reticle is useless if the scope isn't reliable, doesn't track, adjustments are rich/lean, optical performance is terrible, can't adjust to my eye, and on and on.
But assuming 2 scopes are as perfect as can be, and can swallow dropping $400-$500 on a reticle, I would go TreMor 3 again. For these reasons:
1. Of the (4) Horus reticles listed above, I like the TreMor 3 aiming center the most, and by a long shot!
2. The separation the wind dots from the horizontal mil lines makes it much easier to navigate the grid portion
3. I like the addition of the H59 ranging lines above the horizontal stadia
As far as the debate goes between a Mildot/TMR versus a milgrid/tree, I personally prefer the milgrid/tree for follow up shots when I am my own spotter. It's hard to argue with the advantages of seeing your impact and being able to make an accurate correction using just holds. Particularly with my piston driven 308. 2nd shot is usually just 2-3 seconds after the initial and almost always positive (600M-1200M, 18" plates). But I won't argue with the view being cluttered. Also, I agree with stwcattle on dialing up for most of the elevation and only using wind holds for 'small' corrections. I probably don't even know what the T3 looks like from 8 mils on down.
I am really liking the Tremor 3 vs the H59. I like the finer lines in the grid, which make the lower half seem more open. I like that the T3 has less grid directly below the center dot which also makes it more easy to spot misses and impacts. I like the T3 has a lot more vertical reticle above the horizontal stadia (so I can do hold under as well as hold overs for more than 1 MIL). And while I am not 100% used to the wind dots yet, I am starting to train myself so I can use them for faster wind holds. I like the idea of the wind dots vs wind holds that I have been doing, but havnen't forced myself to not dial and make sure I can use them quickly yet.
Awesome, Fred. btw, this is David Baker from NC. you still have an open invite for some eastern NC bbq and moonshine, brother! Im sure it's about time for you to come visit your family in Wilson! lol.
Thanks, next time I am down that way I will try to stop by. Not sure about the moonshine, but 100% on the BBQ - nothing beats NC BBQ, making my mouth water just thinking about it !
I'm liking the reticle more and more. Wind dots seem to be working to 600 yards. I dont hold past that range, 3 mils. Dialed up a shot at 1130 last night. First shot miss. I was able to see impact in the dirt, make the wind correction and hit 2 in a row on that target. Moved to 1285 on same size target but opposite wind. I just hit the left edge and was able to measure the hit, next 2 were center hits.
I got a new 6 creed hunting rifle being built. I like the reticle so much, i plan to hunt with the t3 on that rifle this fall.
Probably the best update i have is my wifes experience with the reticle. She hates change and hates the mil system. She likes her NF MOA based scopes and never would give the H59 more than one chance. She likes the t3. She not ready to trade her scope on her tactical rifle just yet but she shoots my rifle everytime we go out now. In fact, I was going to put a MOA scope on my new hunting rifle and she the one that said "no, go with the t3".
I have been using the T2 for 4 years now. I also have h-58 in a couple of scopes I have. My take them, h-58, not my favorite, wish I had the h-59, but I make it work. Gives me all I need to do, and still make accurate hits. At least its better than old design Mil reticles. T2, been using it for over 4 years, I like it, does all I can ever want out of it. Once you know all the reticle design features, how to use it, and get some quality time behind the reticle, I have no complaint. Yes, the wind dots are there, but so are all the mil marks to practice my wind estimation skills. I mostly use the wind dots for reference, as they are a tool to use. You just have to use that tool in the right way.
Got a T3 about 6 months ago. I like the updated version to some extent. I think the only thing I do not like about it, is the wind dots, to me, are just a bit to large. I can read the reticle faster and little better than the T2. So for me with those two reticles, I would say it will be user preference on which you like better. They both still get the job done extremely well. My preference is the T2, but that is just my like.
Got a T3 about 6 months ago. I like the updated version to some extent. I think the only thing I do not like about it, is the wind dots, to me, are just a bit to large. I can read the reticle faster and little better than the T2. So for me with those two reticles, I would say it will be user preference on which you like better. They both still get the job done extremely well. My preference is the T2, but that is just my like.
For out and out speed I would say the David Tubb DRI reticle has to be the fastest. It really is an amazing reticle. A huge amount of thought went into it. Tons of info in the reticle and very intuitive once you get used to it. I have been playing with the simulator for the last few days and it is really special. Take a look at it and read the manual.
Simulator and instructions - http://www.davidtubb.com/Training
Owners manual - https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tubb+dtr+guide&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
The scope and reticle certainly aren't cheap but if I was making a living from PRS I would be all over it
Scope - http://www.davidtubb.com/dtr-scopes?product_id=153
Simulator and instructions - http://www.davidtubb.com/Training
Owners manual - https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tubb+dtr+guide&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
The scope and reticle certainly aren't cheap but if I was making a living from PRS I would be all over it
Scope - http://www.davidtubb.com/dtr-scopes?product_id=153
I have owned both H58 and Tremor3. I used to dial elevation on anything beyond 300. With the Tremor3 I began using holdovers for everything, and I like it better. It's fast and I get the same or better hit percentage.
We are running the T3 in our PRS Rigs in the new Mark 5s.
I really like them coming from H2CRMs I didn’t think I’d like how busy the reticle is but I’m such a fan I’m planning on changing all of our training and match guns to the T3. The open dot really helps with the smaller targets and the 2mph mover really is money at CORE and K&M.
I’m in Atlanta if you are ever close let me know you are welcome to run my stuff...
I really like them coming from H2CRMs I didn’t think I’d like how busy the reticle is but I’m such a fan I’m planning on changing all of our training and match guns to the T3. The open dot really helps with the smaller targets and the 2mph mover really is money at CORE and K&M.
I’m in Atlanta if you are ever close let me know you are welcome to run my stuff...
I know that this thread has been a year ago but things has changed in the NF Reticle arena with the introduction of the Mil-XT reticle. After a year of using the T3, I want to know if you still love it and have you discovered new things on how to use it? Also how does it compare to the new Mil-XT reticle that just came out from NF. For some it is less busy but would still allow you to hold without dialing and mil it for wind instead of the wind dots of the T3. Interested in know the thoughts and opinions after a year. Thanks so much.
I still have mine, and yes, I still like it. But, like most things, it really comes down to personal preference.
Agree with this. I love the T3 and the SKMR3. I feel like I should use the T3’s features a bit more, and will work on that.
T2/3 are good until you get far enough that spin drift, coriolis effect, etc come into play. Then H59, CCH, and Mil-XT are better.
Unless you are dropping into lower grid after 10 mil you have the chance for wind dot interference that is no longer precise enough and in the incorrect location. The only con is only 5 mil of windage on the Mil XT. The H59 goes all the way to 10 mil. CCH only 4 mil if I recall correctly.
Leupold MarkV 5-25X56mm scope with DTR V2 reticle (non-illuminated)
DTR Mark V Scope 5025X50
www.davidtubb.com
DTR reticle was another attempt to make things easier. With modern ballistic calculators a plan grid I find better though past 1 second of flight.
Shooting today had about 0.3 mil of combined spin drift and coriolis effect.
Have a few rifles sighted a hair left so don't have to worry at 1000 yards about spin drift.
Just depends on application for any given rifle.
Leupold MarkV 5-25X56mm scope with DTR V2 reticle (non-illuminated)
DTR Mark V Scope 5025X50
DTR reticle was another attempt to make things easier. With modern ballistic calculators a plan grid I find better though past 1 second of flight.
If you’re using anything that matches that reticle or have the time to use the app that accompanies the dtr it’s very impressive what has been pulled off with it.
So I started with a tremor 2 after watching the Todd Magpul precision rifle DVD. Then I went to H59, then i got a T3. My goodness , those damn dots cover up most of the FOV. so I went to a SKMR3 and now ZCP MPCT 3. Someone should calculate the area of view lost due to the T3 dots, lines and grids - i think it must be a full 30% at high mag. And BTW them "wind dots" i found kinda useless .. if you have a kestrel.
For sure the SD equations are super flawed. Maybe shooting around Litz makes us too worried about a none issue lol.
so what are you guys thinking now - Tremor3 still gtg? I am looking at Mark 5HD so Tremor3, H59, or TMR. Will go on a 1000yard bolt gun in 300 win or 300 prc
any update / info would be appreciated. - B
any update / info would be appreciated. - B
If your gonna learn and plan to use all the wind dots and other stuff get the T3
I do wind holds differently and have no need for all those extra bells and whistles.
For me the thing that really sets the T3 apart is the wind dots, makes holding for wind stupid simple once you calibrate to your gun and ammo. If you aren't willing to invest the time to learn the system then it's not worth the extra money.
It's still gtg for me, just picked up a NX8 with the Tremor3.
It's still gtg for me, just picked up a NX8 with the Tremor3.
I am a fan but admittedly don’t find myself using wind dots all that much. I also love the skmr3 and the new Leica PRB reticle
What he said. I have two of the same scopes 4-32x50 with T3. The key is to learn it, practice with it, you will love it. If you don't you will hate it and nothing in between.
