I'm having a hard time with quite a bit of run-out in my 308 loads. I'm using Lapua brass, 175gr SMK, FL size with a Redding S-type die, Wilson chamber seater die with a K&M arbor press. Currently my run-out is anywhere from 0.0005" to 0.005". Any ideas?
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Tricks to reducing run-out?
- Thread starter johngfoster
- Start date
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
It could be in the brass before the bullet is ever seated. Check the run out without a bullet seated. I have a old rcbs press that will induce a run out. You can try leaving the sizing die loose so it will float. That will usually work.
If the problem is in the ram itself as far as how the shell holder is held it may be harder to fix. I have taken out the spring clip and hold the shell holder in with an o-ring.
It could also be the die. You will just have to eliminate one thing at a time. You may need to try another press or learn how to get around the minor quirks with yours.
It could be in the brass before the bullet is ever seated. Check the run out without a bullet seated. I have a old rcbs press that will induce a run out. You can try leaving the sizing die loose so it will float. That will usually work.
If the problem is in the ram itself as far as how the shell holder is held it may be harder to fix. I have taken out the spring clip and hold the shell holder in with an o-ring.
It could also be the die. You will just have to eliminate one thing at a time. You may need to try another press or learn how to get around the minor quirks with yours.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Are you using an expander ball?That usually causes runout in the case neck,you can polish it and see if that helps.Once you figure out how to reduce runout in your case necks,then it comes down to seating the bullet.I usually find that seating about half way,then rotating the case 180 degree's then finish seating helps.Seating just takes technique,you have to see what works the best.You can also try seating a little at a time,and rotating about 90 degree's each time.There is no set technique that works for everyone,you just have to see what works with your equipment.
One thing I do,is find the high spot on the bullet,with your concentricity guage after seating the bullet.Then just apply a little pressure with your thumb,and you can pretty much get rid of what little bit of runout you have.I then take it a step further,and put a mark on top of the bullet,marking the high spot.Then when I chamber the round in the rifle,I keep the marks in the "up" position.By doing this,all of my bullets are pointing in the same direction.Maybe this is a waste of time,maybe not,but it is just adding more consistancy to the whole process.
Are you using an expander ball?That usually causes runout in the case neck,you can polish it and see if that helps.Once you figure out how to reduce runout in your case necks,then it comes down to seating the bullet.I usually find that seating about half way,then rotating the case 180 degree's then finish seating helps.Seating just takes technique,you have to see what works the best.You can also try seating a little at a time,and rotating about 90 degree's each time.There is no set technique that works for everyone,you just have to see what works with your equipment.
One thing I do,is find the high spot on the bullet,with your concentricity guage after seating the bullet.Then just apply a little pressure with your thumb,and you can pretty much get rid of what little bit of runout you have.I then take it a step further,and put a mark on top of the bullet,marking the high spot.Then when I chamber the round in the rifle,I keep the marks in the "up" position.By doing this,all of my bullets are pointing in the same direction.Maybe this is a waste of time,maybe not,but it is just adding more consistancy to the whole process.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Hi, try this. Insert a case into your sizing die that you know has "0" R/O. Then tighten down that screw that holds you neck bushing in place. Now that bushing can't "float" and your necks position will not change.
This R/O issue is more noticable with cases that have been reloaded a few times.
FWIW: I use the Redding F/L die with a .337 bus.(FGMM brass .308)and the expander ball to "true" the necks inside(don't n/turn)and my R/O is never more than .002".
Respectfully,
LG
P.S. How much N/ten. you running? S/B no more than .002".
Hi, try this. Insert a case into your sizing die that you know has "0" R/O. Then tighten down that screw that holds you neck bushing in place. Now that bushing can't "float" and your necks position will not change.
This R/O issue is more noticable with cases that have been reloaded a few times.
FWIW: I use the Redding F/L die with a .337 bus.(FGMM brass .308)and the expander ball to "true" the necks inside(don't n/turn)and my R/O is never more than .002".
Respectfully,
LG
P.S. How much N/ten. you running? S/B no more than .002".
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I have not measured this, so I'm not sure if it is reliable ornot. Instead of seating with one complete stroke, use three smaller ones and rotate the case in the shell holder ~ 120* each stroke. As said before, float the die or shell holder if possible.
I have not measured this, so I'm not sure if it is reliable ornot. Instead of seating with one complete stroke, use three smaller ones and rotate the case in the shell holder ~ 120* each stroke. As said before, float the die or shell holder if possible.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Most run out is caused by uneven neck thicknesses. Measure the neck thickness of the cases all around, and see if it's there. If it varies by .0005" or .001" or more, then this will cause run out.
The sizing die can enduce some run-out, as well, if the expander ball is pushing to one side. If you are neck sizing, then you shouldn't need the expander ball, so I would take it out. If you need it to knock the primer out, then get a decapping die. Or take a smaller expander ball from another die set, and screw it on so it doesn't touch the inside of the neck.
Also, make sure the tip of the bullet is not touching the top of the seating die. Some VLD bullets will touch the top of the die, and cause the bullet to seat slightly off center. Make sure the press ram is not too loose at the top of it's stroke.
Just measure each step of the process to figure out which step is causing the run-out.
Most run out is caused by uneven neck thicknesses. Measure the neck thickness of the cases all around, and see if it's there. If it varies by .0005" or .001" or more, then this will cause run out.
The sizing die can enduce some run-out, as well, if the expander ball is pushing to one side. If you are neck sizing, then you shouldn't need the expander ball, so I would take it out. If you need it to knock the primer out, then get a decapping die. Or take a smaller expander ball from another die set, and screw it on so it doesn't touch the inside of the neck.
Also, make sure the tip of the bullet is not touching the top of the seating die. Some VLD bullets will touch the top of the die, and cause the bullet to seat slightly off center. Make sure the press ram is not too loose at the top of it's stroke.
Just measure each step of the process to figure out which step is causing the run-out.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Run-out up to about 0.003 does not seriously degrade accuracy*. After 0.003 all bets are off.
(*) tactical applications where 1 MoA is the std for acceptable marksmanship, and 0.5 MoA is considered superb.
Keep the press lubricated, use neck bushing dies, have the case fully supported as the bullet gets seated, use the pressure sensors in your arm to feel for how the case is getting sized and for how the bullet is being seated.
Run-out up to about 0.003 does not seriously degrade accuracy*. After 0.003 all bets are off.
(*) tactical applications where 1 MoA is the std for acceptable marksmanship, and 0.5 MoA is considered superb.
Keep the press lubricated, use neck bushing dies, have the case fully supported as the bullet gets seated, use the pressure sensors in your arm to feel for how the case is getting sized and for how the bullet is being seated.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
sometimes you guys are trying to split an atom here. i have shot 175's dumped from and rcbs powder dump, fl sized with whatever neck tension my old beater lee die gives me and the bullet seated to anything under mag length and still achieved groups under .5 moa with an es of no more than 30....just shoot
sometimes you guys are trying to split an atom here. i have shot 175's dumped from and rcbs powder dump, fl sized with whatever neck tension my old beater lee die gives me and the bullet seated to anything under mag length and still achieved groups under .5 moa with an es of no more than 30....just shoot
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
dg,
Pretty much agree w/ ya, this ain't BR Central.................
BUT, as a matter of practice I set my stds at MAX 0.003..................
Once I got it down...........
All my loads, w/out even checking are at/below.001-.003...............
And need that for GOOD quality ammo at 1k.............
Further ya go, the more imprtant it gets...........
dg,
Pretty much agree w/ ya, this ain't BR Central.................
BUT, as a matter of practice I set my stds at MAX 0.003..................
Once I got it down...........
All my loads, w/out even checking are at/below.001-.003...............
And need that for GOOD quality ammo at 1k.............
Further ya go, the more imprtant it gets...........
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dg,
Pretty much agree w/ ya, this ain't BR Central.................
BUT, as a matter of practice I set my stds at MAX 0.003..................
Once I got it down...........
All my loads, w/out even checking are at/below.001-.003...............
And need that for GOOD quality ammo at 1k.............
Further ya go, the more imprtant it gets........... </div></div>
i agree with you as well. maybe i have just gotten lucky but my set up gives me .002 neck tension and usually never more than .002 run out. i have just seen so much time and money spent on dies and shit that really aren't giving you a tremendous gain for the cost. if i can consistently match the quality of fgmm with my home rolled i am happy. it is a tactical rifle with a tactical purpose for me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dg,
Pretty much agree w/ ya, this ain't BR Central.................
BUT, as a matter of practice I set my stds at MAX 0.003..................
Once I got it down...........
All my loads, w/out even checking are at/below.001-.003...............
And need that for GOOD quality ammo at 1k.............
Further ya go, the more imprtant it gets........... </div></div>
i agree with you as well. maybe i have just gotten lucky but my set up gives me .002 neck tension and usually never more than .002 run out. i have just seen so much time and money spent on dies and shit that really aren't giving you a tremendous gain for the cost. if i can consistently match the quality of fgmm with my home rolled i am happy. it is a tactical rifle with a tactical purpose for me.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run-out up to about 0.003 does not seriously degrade accuracy*. After 0.003 all bets are off.
(*) tactical applications where 1 MoA is the std for acceptable marksmanship, and 0.5 MoA is considered superb.
Keep the press lubricated, use neck bushing dies, have the case fully supported as the bullet gets seated, use the pressure sensors in your arm to feel for how the case is getting sized and for how the bullet is being seated. </div></div>
that sounds good to me....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run-out up to about 0.003 does not seriously degrade accuracy*. After 0.003 all bets are off.
(*) tactical applications where 1 MoA is the std for acceptable marksmanship, and 0.5 MoA is considered superb.
Keep the press lubricated, use neck bushing dies, have the case fully supported as the bullet gets seated, use the pressure sensors in your arm to feel for how the case is getting sized and for how the bullet is being seated. </div></div>
that sounds good to me....
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Some more info: Brass is Lapua--once fired. Neck wall thickness is almost universally 0.015", sometimes as much as 0.016". Neck concentricity after sizing/brass prep is about 0.001" R/O. One thing I've been wondering about is whether I've been a little too "vigorous" with my deburring. I'm using a VLD deburrer for the inside of the neck, and have a hard time keeping it concentric to the case during this operation. I'm doing it by hand and don't have a drill press to work with--yet. I notice that the bright spot of trimmed brass on the inside of the neck is not always the same width all the way around the neck. It is also about 1/16" wide. I'm wondering if this may cause the bullet to go in crooked, and then not get straightened out during the seating process.
Another thought is my sizing die. It is a Wilson chamber type. It seemed to work fine with virgin brass, but when I was reloading once fired brass, the brass wouldn't go all the way in, and it would not sit on the base due the brass protruding out the bottom. I took it to my gunsmith who reamed it out with the same die he cut the chamber of my rifle with. Prior to this, even with the base of the brass protruding from the seater die, I was getting 0.001 to 0.0015" run-out. Now, the brass doesn't protrude, but I'm getting more run-out. I spoke to my smith about this, to see if the reamer may have gone in crooked, but he said that wasn't possible. It's self-centering apparently. I'm not a smith, so I don't know if he is blowing smoke or not. Others more in the know would be able to comment better on this.
I have my Redding FL bushing die set up per Redding's instructions, to allow the bushing to float just a bit. I am using the expander ball, thinking that it should help keep the inside of the neck concentric/round. I don't neck turn yet, but am seriously considering doing this. Anything else I can do?
Some more info: Brass is Lapua--once fired. Neck wall thickness is almost universally 0.015", sometimes as much as 0.016". Neck concentricity after sizing/brass prep is about 0.001" R/O. One thing I've been wondering about is whether I've been a little too "vigorous" with my deburring. I'm using a VLD deburrer for the inside of the neck, and have a hard time keeping it concentric to the case during this operation. I'm doing it by hand and don't have a drill press to work with--yet. I notice that the bright spot of trimmed brass on the inside of the neck is not always the same width all the way around the neck. It is also about 1/16" wide. I'm wondering if this may cause the bullet to go in crooked, and then not get straightened out during the seating process.
Another thought is my sizing die. It is a Wilson chamber type. It seemed to work fine with virgin brass, but when I was reloading once fired brass, the brass wouldn't go all the way in, and it would not sit on the base due the brass protruding out the bottom. I took it to my gunsmith who reamed it out with the same die he cut the chamber of my rifle with. Prior to this, even with the base of the brass protruding from the seater die, I was getting 0.001 to 0.0015" run-out. Now, the brass doesn't protrude, but I'm getting more run-out. I spoke to my smith about this, to see if the reamer may have gone in crooked, but he said that wasn't possible. It's self-centering apparently. I'm not a smith, so I don't know if he is blowing smoke or not. Others more in the know would be able to comment better on this.
I have my Redding FL bushing die set up per Redding's instructions, to allow the bushing to float just a bit. I am using the expander ball, thinking that it should help keep the inside of the neck concentric/round. I don't neck turn yet, but am seriously considering doing this. Anything else I can do?
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Well, I tried rotating the die with multiple shorter compressions with my press. This didn't help at all. I've measured the runout on the case neck prior to reloading and it is about 0.001". Also measured neck wall thickness: 0.015"-0.016". Again, my Redding FL bushing die is set per manufacturers instructions allowing the bushing to "float" just a bit. My expander ball is nice and clean and shiny/polished.
Prior to having my Wilson hand seater die reamed out just a bit, the same brass/press/bullet/die combo was creating ammunition with 0.0015" runout. Now the runout is up to almost 0.006". You can visibly see the crookedness of the bullet. My smith is trying to get me to start neck turning to correct the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one should be able to create ammunition with twice-fired brass that has better runout than 0.006" without neck turning. I'm not looking to win any BR matches here, but 0.006" is just too much!
Any thoughts/ideas? Please help. I'm getting pretty frustrated by this.
Well, I tried rotating the die with multiple shorter compressions with my press. This didn't help at all. I've measured the runout on the case neck prior to reloading and it is about 0.001". Also measured neck wall thickness: 0.015"-0.016". Again, my Redding FL bushing die is set per manufacturers instructions allowing the bushing to "float" just a bit. My expander ball is nice and clean and shiny/polished.
Prior to having my Wilson hand seater die reamed out just a bit, the same brass/press/bullet/die combo was creating ammunition with 0.0015" runout. Now the runout is up to almost 0.006". You can visibly see the crookedness of the bullet. My smith is trying to get me to start neck turning to correct the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one should be able to create ammunition with twice-fired brass that has better runout than 0.006" without neck turning. I'm not looking to win any BR matches here, but 0.006" is just too much!
Any thoughts/ideas? Please help. I'm getting pretty frustrated by this.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I think I'm going to get a new seater die. Been wanting to get the micrometer seater anyway, so this will work as a great excuse. Now, if Midway would just get it in stock.
I think I'm going to get a new seater die. Been wanting to get the micrometer seater anyway, so this will work as a great excuse. Now, if Midway would just get it in stock.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
It seams to me that you are getting a nice concentricity out of the sizing die (0.001-0.0015). What you need to be able to do is to get the same concentricity out of the seating die.
Thought on the VLD deburring tool. What you are looking to do is to cut just enough off the inside of the top of the nect so that the bullet boat tail can slide easily into the neck and expand the neck evenly as it goes in. Thus, you only need a cut of 0.002-0.005 so the neck top edge has a starting point for the bullet boat tail (about 1/3rd of the thickness of the neck brass.)
So, don't try to trim the neck, but don't worry about the axial relationship between VLD tool and the case neck--just enough a cut to allow the boat tail to slide in (I don't).
Then when you are seating the bullet, raise the ram until you can just feel the bulet start to seat, and then slow the lever down so you can feel the bullet slip into the neck with the sensors in your arm. Feel the neck brass expand, feel the bullet slip in. See if this doesn't gain a little in the concentricity department.
It seams to me that you are getting a nice concentricity out of the sizing die (0.001-0.0015). What you need to be able to do is to get the same concentricity out of the seating die.
Thought on the VLD deburring tool. What you are looking to do is to cut just enough off the inside of the top of the nect so that the bullet boat tail can slide easily into the neck and expand the neck evenly as it goes in. Thus, you only need a cut of 0.002-0.005 so the neck top edge has a starting point for the bullet boat tail (about 1/3rd of the thickness of the neck brass.)
So, don't try to trim the neck, but don't worry about the axial relationship between VLD tool and the case neck--just enough a cut to allow the boat tail to slide in (I don't).
Then when you are seating the bullet, raise the ram until you can just feel the bulet start to seat, and then slow the lever down so you can feel the bullet slip into the neck with the sensors in your arm. Feel the neck brass expand, feel the bullet slip in. See if this doesn't gain a little in the concentricity department.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I have to agree with everything said so far.
The only thing I have to add is that I have tried neck turning for a chamber that is not a tight-neck match chamber (standard "Palma 97" 308 chamber, I believe) and it doesn't do anything except waste my time and cause me to spend money on additional neck bushings for my sizing die.
--Rootshot
I have to agree with everything said so far.
The only thing I have to add is that I have tried neck turning for a chamber that is not a tight-neck match chamber (standard "Palma 97" 308 chamber, I believe) and it doesn't do anything except waste my time and cause me to spend money on additional neck bushings for my sizing die.
--Rootshot
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Toss the expander ball. Go to <varmintal.com> he has some excellent tips on reducing runout. I find polishing the inside of the necks with 0000 steel wool on a bore brush in my hand drill, then lubing with a bit of graphite or HxBN in alcohol really reduces the seating effort and allows the bullet to seat easily with less runout. JMHO
Toss the expander ball. Go to <varmintal.com> he has some excellent tips on reducing runout. I find polishing the inside of the necks with 0000 steel wool on a bore brush in my hand drill, then lubing with a bit of graphite or HxBN in alcohol really reduces the seating effort and allows the bullet to seat easily with less runout. JMHO
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I was having some of the same issues. My fix was as simple as getting rid of the expander ball. My thinking right or wrong was that if the chamber was "straight" then the sizing die was all that was needed.
Semper Fi
I was having some of the same issues. My fix was as simple as getting rid of the expander ball. My thinking right or wrong was that if the chamber was "straight" then the sizing die was all that was needed.
Semper Fi
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Run out is most likly coming when you size the neck portion of the brass. If your sizing the neck down more than .005" at a time that will induce runout. Also, bushing dies are good (thats what I use) but, honed dies are better at reducing runout. If your jaming the bullets in the lands, not to worry, that forces things to straighten up a bit. I faught this bitch several years ago. The thing sI did that worked are as follows;
1. remove the clip spring that holds your shell holder in the ram of your press.
2. Dont size down the case necks more than .005" at a time. ( I did this with different bushings before I started specing my reamers differently)
3. Use a honed FL die ( my buddy did this not me. His run out is gone)
4. Use dry lube inside the necks. The Neco kit is good for this
5. Clean the case necks with JB, Flitz or Semi-Chrome and lightly lube the outside with Imperial Sizing Die Wax.
6. Purchase This It works great. You can dial out the runout. This thing works like a charm, you wont be sorry.
Run out is most likly coming when you size the neck portion of the brass. If your sizing the neck down more than .005" at a time that will induce runout. Also, bushing dies are good (thats what I use) but, honed dies are better at reducing runout. If your jaming the bullets in the lands, not to worry, that forces things to straighten up a bit. I faught this bitch several years ago. The thing sI did that worked are as follows;
1. remove the clip spring that holds your shell holder in the ram of your press.
2. Dont size down the case necks more than .005" at a time. ( I did this with different bushings before I started specing my reamers differently)
3. Use a honed FL die ( my buddy did this not me. His run out is gone)
4. Use dry lube inside the necks. The Neco kit is good for this
5. Clean the case necks with JB, Flitz or Semi-Chrome and lightly lube the outside with Imperial Sizing Die Wax.
6. Purchase This It works great. You can dial out the runout. This thing works like a charm, you wont be sorry.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
William, thanks! Couple questions thou:
1. re stepping down bushings I have heard several say to step
down like you, and others have said they just take one bite, even going down from a factory fired neck. My fired is .342 and just
got a die with .335. Should I have bought an intermediate size bushing?
4. dry lube inside is for bullet seating obviously right? Or for
expander balls?
Thank you sir!
William, thanks! Couple questions thou:
1. re stepping down bushings I have heard several say to step
down like you, and others have said they just take one bite, even going down from a factory fired neck. My fired is .342 and just
got a die with .335. Should I have bought an intermediate size bushing?
4. dry lube inside is for bullet seating obviously right? Or for
expander balls?
Thank you sir!
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Try a rubber O-Ring under the sizing die lock nut and only screw it down hand tight so it can just flex a bit sideways.
Reducing the amount you size down in one pass does reduce potential run out because it reduces the bulge of brass going ahead of the bush as it sizes down the neck.
Good dry lubricants also reduce this.
The best I have come up with is a mixture of 50% Moly disulphide(MOs2)
and 50% Aluminiumised lock graphite ( from lock smiths) .
It is real sticky and coats up the bushing . The super fine aluminium powder helps to stop neck welding in stored ammo also.
Try a rubber O-Ring under the sizing die lock nut and only screw it down hand tight so it can just flex a bit sideways.
Reducing the amount you size down in one pass does reduce potential run out because it reduces the bulge of brass going ahead of the bush as it sizes down the neck.
Good dry lubricants also reduce this.
The best I have come up with is a mixture of 50% Moly disulphide(MOs2)
and 50% Aluminiumised lock graphite ( from lock smiths) .
It is real sticky and coats up the bushing . The super fine aluminium powder helps to stop neck welding in stored ammo also.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I align my dies when I set them up. I do this by establishing the adjustment, then bringing a casing to full-stroke with the lock ring loosened. While it is at full stroke, I tighten the lock ring.
This is the best I can do to help runout, and once it's done, I don't check runout anymore, because everything I can do is already done. It is what it is, and that's that.
If I was looking for ultimate accuracy, I'd probably be a lot more mindful of such things, but my goal is practical accuracy, not ultimate accuracy.
Before going to extreme lengths to ensure the most precisely made ammo possible, I think it makes sense to test a little, to see what actual impact all this additional work brings to the table, ala accuracy.
I have, and the difference between just gittin' 'er done, and doing all the bells and whistles seems to add up to about 1/4MOA for my ammo. The cost/time effectiveness of all the additional pains does not add up for me, so I just make ammo.
My key allowances to accuracy are to hand weigh each charge, and to ream flashholes. They make enough difference to be worth the time. The other stuff makes a difference too, but not such a big one even in tandem, so I leave them out.
There's more to this as well. Every time we add a process, we add an opportunity to get that process wrong. Which means more checking, more hand wringing, and more redundant effort. It's not long at all before we hit that wall of diminishing returns. And, because we are dutifully attentive, we are also often worried about this or that process, did we really get it right, etc.? The net result is that it undermines the confidence and distracts the shooter's attention at the range. All the extra work can cut into range time, and can be sufficiently daunting to contemplate that it just drags at the entire shooting process right down at its foundations. When we contemplate the actual benefit versus the costs, it starts to look like a losing proposition.
Should you do these things or not? If the benefits they bring are worth the extra work <span style="font-style: italic">to you</span> then you positively must. If they don't, then you have your answer.
There are enough gremlins and traps lurking in the environment to upset even the most cautiously constructed applecart. Enough so that the uncertainty they contribute to the shooting process will often outweigh even the most precisely crafted efforts of the handloader. I choose to adopt a philosophical view of these traps and gremlns, and while I'm at it, I also just add in that additional 1/4MOA worth of accuracy I sacrificed when I decided to just 'git 'er done'.
Greg
I align my dies when I set them up. I do this by establishing the adjustment, then bringing a casing to full-stroke with the lock ring loosened. While it is at full stroke, I tighten the lock ring.
This is the best I can do to help runout, and once it's done, I don't check runout anymore, because everything I can do is already done. It is what it is, and that's that.
If I was looking for ultimate accuracy, I'd probably be a lot more mindful of such things, but my goal is practical accuracy, not ultimate accuracy.
Before going to extreme lengths to ensure the most precisely made ammo possible, I think it makes sense to test a little, to see what actual impact all this additional work brings to the table, ala accuracy.
I have, and the difference between just gittin' 'er done, and doing all the bells and whistles seems to add up to about 1/4MOA for my ammo. The cost/time effectiveness of all the additional pains does not add up for me, so I just make ammo.
My key allowances to accuracy are to hand weigh each charge, and to ream flashholes. They make enough difference to be worth the time. The other stuff makes a difference too, but not such a big one even in tandem, so I leave them out.
There's more to this as well. Every time we add a process, we add an opportunity to get that process wrong. Which means more checking, more hand wringing, and more redundant effort. It's not long at all before we hit that wall of diminishing returns. And, because we are dutifully attentive, we are also often worried about this or that process, did we really get it right, etc.? The net result is that it undermines the confidence and distracts the shooter's attention at the range. All the extra work can cut into range time, and can be sufficiently daunting to contemplate that it just drags at the entire shooting process right down at its foundations. When we contemplate the actual benefit versus the costs, it starts to look like a losing proposition.
Should you do these things or not? If the benefits they bring are worth the extra work <span style="font-style: italic">to you</span> then you positively must. If they don't, then you have your answer.
There are enough gremlins and traps lurking in the environment to upset even the most cautiously constructed applecart. Enough so that the uncertainty they contribute to the shooting process will often outweigh even the most precisely crafted efforts of the handloader. I choose to adopt a philosophical view of these traps and gremlns, and while I'm at it, I also just add in that additional 1/4MOA worth of accuracy I sacrificed when I decided to just 'git 'er done'.
Greg
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
JF what is the R/O AFTER firing?
You say after sizing you have .001 correct? Is that T.I.R?
Go and reread my post on the first page about locking down the bushing so it CAN'T move and your R/O will be gone........
Respectfully,
LG
JF what is the R/O AFTER firing?
You say after sizing you have .001 correct? Is that T.I.R?
Go and reread my post on the first page about locking down the bushing so it CAN'T move and your R/O will be gone........
Respectfully,
LG
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
What are you trying to say . " tag " means nothing to me.
If you have something useful to add spit it out.
What are you trying to say . " tag " means nothing to me.
If you have something useful to add spit it out.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
"Tag" just means he's following the post to see what wisdom develops.
"Tag" just means he's following the post to see what wisdom develops.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
It means he's not swift enough to figure out how to add this topic to his 'Watched Topics' and get notices/updates about new posts without having to post a meaningless one-word post, at which point the forum software does it automagically for him. Most likely an ARF.com'er
They only recently joined the rest of the world in allowing people to subscribe to threads without posting in them.
It means he's not swift enough to figure out how to add this topic to his 'Watched Topics' and get notices/updates about new posts without having to post a meaningless one-word post, at which point the forum software does it automagically for him. Most likely an ARF.com'er
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. re stepping down bushings I have heard several say to step
down like you, and others have said they just take one bite, even going down from a factory fired neck. My fired is .342 and just
got a die with .335. Should I have bought an intermediate size bushing?</div></div>
I step down from an obturated size of 0.3445 to 0.332 in two steps using a 0.338 and a 0.332 bushing.
{And yes I know this is bigger steps than the recommended 0.005 (but only by a teeny tiny 0.001)}
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. re stepping down bushings I have heard several say to step
down like you, and others have said they just take one bite, even going down from a factory fired neck. My fired is .342 and just
got a die with .335. Should I have bought an intermediate size bushing?</div></div>
I step down from an obturated size of 0.3445 to 0.332 in two steps using a 0.338 and a 0.332 bushing.
{And yes I know this is bigger steps than the recommended 0.005 (but only by a teeny tiny 0.001)}
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things.
I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Thanks for that explanation "EastbayRidge" and "memilanuk" . Where I come from TAG means " Total and absolute garbage "
so I thought he was insulting me sorry.
Thanks for that explanation "EastbayRidge" and "memilanuk" . Where I come from TAG means " Total and absolute garbage "
so I thought he was insulting me sorry.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
I find Lapua brass is good also and size in one pass but I do use a dry lube even though I know I don't have to.
Bushings work better with even neck wall thickness I find.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
I find Lapua brass is good also and size in one pass but I do use a dry lube even though I know I don't have to.
Bushings work better with even neck wall thickness I find.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Even Lapua brass needs de-burred.
Too much neck tension and burrs will throw off seating.
Are you forming, or reloading?
More questions.
Even Lapua brass needs de-burred.
Too much neck tension and burrs will throw off seating.
Are you forming, or reloading?
More questions.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Well, I ordered a new seater die, so we'll see how things are when it comes in. I am using a 0.336" bushing, so that should be 0.002" neck tension when loaded. If anything, I've taken too much off the inside of the case mouth with my VLD deburrer.
Well, I ordered a new seater die, so we'll see how things are when it comes in. I am using a 0.336" bushing, so that should be 0.002" neck tension when loaded. If anything, I've taken too much off the inside of the case mouth with my VLD deburrer.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
Raf, do you float your bushing a tad per the instructions?
I dunno if I'm too stoked with the lot of Lapua I bought, four firings on the first 'lot' of fifty and the pockets are starting to feel loose. I'm waiting to hear back from them, they asked me the lot number and load details, so we'll see what they say.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
Raf, do you float your bushing a tad per the instructions?
I dunno if I'm too stoked with the lot of Lapua I bought, four firings on the first 'lot' of fifty and the pockets are starting to feel loose. I'm waiting to hear back from them, they asked me the lot number and load details, so we'll see what they say.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
I find Lapua brass is good also and size in one pass but I do use a dry lube even though I know I don't have to.
Bushings work better with even neck wall thickness I find.
</div></div>
....and that may be the main reason for the success I have had.
Gotta love Lapua.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
I find Lapua brass is good also and size in one pass but I do use a dry lube even though I know I don't have to.
Bushings work better with even neck wall thickness I find.
</div></div>
....and that may be the main reason for the success I have had.
Gotta love Lapua.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
Raf, do you float your bushing a tad per the instructions?
I dunno if I'm too stoked with the lot of Lapua I bought, four firings on the first 'lot' of fifty and the pockets are starting to feel loose. I'm waiting to hear back from them, they asked me the lot number and load details, so we'll see what they say.
</div></div>
No, sir, not at all.
My dies are not kept very clean either. I don't clean them very often at all.
What load are you running that they are getting loose?
Mine tend to get loose towards the end of thier lifespan of 50 or so reloads, but I have never tossed one because of it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be one of those who sizes from .343" to .335" in one step and have no runout problems, even with this setup running on my Hornady AP press as well as on my Redding T-7. I use no lube, inside or out.... unless for f/l or bumping.
Average runout for loaded rounds is under .001" with a few odd ones running as high as .003" on occasion. I can't tell the difference between my best and worst when shooting.
I do use unturned Lapua brass, and the quality brass may be helping things. </div></div>
Raf, do you float your bushing a tad per the instructions?
I dunno if I'm too stoked with the lot of Lapua I bought, four firings on the first 'lot' of fifty and the pockets are starting to feel loose. I'm waiting to hear back from them, they asked me the lot number and load details, so we'll see what they say.
</div></div>
No, sir, not at all.
My dies are not kept very clean either. I don't clean them very often at all.
What load are you running that they are getting loose?
Mine tend to get loose towards the end of thier lifespan of 50 or so reloads, but I have never tossed one because of it.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Hmmm. Well that is a pretty stoud load for me too, but I have not shot many of them through the same piece of brass.....yet.
I don't have the top down tight on my Redding Micrometer neck die but I do on my "S" die. I switch back and forth between them now and then.
Hmmm. Well that is a pretty stoud load for me too, but I have not shot many of them through the same piece of brass.....yet.
I don't have the top down tight on my Redding Micrometer neck die but I do on my "S" die. I switch back and forth between them now and then.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
Well, I got a new seater die. Again, the case head protrudes out the die maybe .010-.050" (just a guess) It wobbles in the base. However, once adjusted, my run-out has again dropped dramatically. Those cases that had a run-out of 0.006" are now 0.003", and those that were 0.003" are now 0.0015". I think some of these other suggestions might help drop the run-out even more, especially on the few that are 0.003". But now it is about the same spec as some FGGM that I've measured--0.0015" to 0.003" (most are 0.0015") Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.
Well, I got a new seater die. Again, the case head protrudes out the die maybe .010-.050" (just a guess) It wobbles in the base. However, once adjusted, my run-out has again dropped dramatically. Those cases that had a run-out of 0.006" are now 0.003", and those that were 0.003" are now 0.0015". I think some of these other suggestions might help drop the run-out even more, especially on the few that are 0.003". But now it is about the same spec as some FGGM that I've measured--0.0015" to 0.003" (most are 0.0015") Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having a hard time with quite a bit of run-out in my 308 loads. I'm using Lapua brass, 175gr SMK, FL size with a Redding S-type die, Wilson chamber seater die with a K&M arbor press. Currently my run-out is anywhere from 0.0005" to 0.005". Any ideas? </div></div>
I've been having about the same runout as you describe using Lapua brass, 155 scenars, and Redding dies. My loads are compressed and I wanted to see if that was causing some of my issues. When seating bullets on empty cases, my concentricity issues went away. Now I'm scratching my head as to next steps. I could reduce my charge weight to avoid a compressed load, but I'll lose a bunch of velocity. Another option would be to get the nifty tool that the guy from Louisiana Precision Rifles recommended in this thread. Decisions, decisions....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having a hard time with quite a bit of run-out in my 308 loads. I'm using Lapua brass, 175gr SMK, FL size with a Redding S-type die, Wilson chamber seater die with a K&M arbor press. Currently my run-out is anywhere from 0.0005" to 0.005". Any ideas? </div></div>
I've been having about the same runout as you describe using Lapua brass, 155 scenars, and Redding dies. My loads are compressed and I wanted to see if that was causing some of my issues. When seating bullets on empty cases, my concentricity issues went away. Now I'm scratching my head as to next steps. I could reduce my charge weight to avoid a compressed load, but I'll lose a bunch of velocity. Another option would be to get the nifty tool that the guy from Louisiana Precision Rifles recommended in this thread. Decisions, decisions....
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
If you truly suspect the compressed load:
Have you tried using a longer drop tube to dump charges?
Have you tried settling the charges a bit by gently vibrating the charged cases? This can be done by holding the charged case against your vibratory cleaner as it runs.
This would help you figure out if the compressed load is the cause.
If you truly suspect the compressed load:
Have you tried using a longer drop tube to dump charges?
Have you tried settling the charges a bit by gently vibrating the charged cases? This can be done by holding the charged case against your vibratory cleaner as it runs.
This would help you figure out if the compressed load is the cause.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you truly suspect the compressed load:
Have you tried using a longer drop tube to dump charges?
Have you tried settling the charges a bit by gently vibrating the charged cases? This can be done by holding the charged case against your vibratory cleaner as it runs.
This would help you figure out if the compressed load is the cause.</div></div>
I have used the vibrator trick, but the load is still compressed. I'm using 44.5 to 45 grains of H4895 in Lapua brass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you truly suspect the compressed load:
Have you tried using a longer drop tube to dump charges?
Have you tried settling the charges a bit by gently vibrating the charged cases? This can be done by holding the charged case against your vibratory cleaner as it runs.
This would help you figure out if the compressed load is the cause.</div></div>
I have used the vibrator trick, but the load is still compressed. I'm using 44.5 to 45 grains of H4895 in Lapua brass.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
What's your O.A.L?
Just trying to make suggestions.
I have not run any compressed loads for some time, but then I am still using the 175MK dinosaur.
What's your O.A.L?
Just trying to make suggestions.
I have not run any compressed loads for some time, but then I am still using the 175MK dinosaur.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's your O.A.L?
Just trying to make suggestions.
I have not run any compressed loads for some time, but then I am still using the 175MK dinosaur.
</div></div>
I appreciate the suggestions.
OAL is 2.80 - 2.810
One advantage of the 175SMK is the fact you can load it with 44gr Varget and it takes up 99% case capacity. I used to shoot the 175SMK until I realized the advantage of the 155 Scenar at 1K yards.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's your O.A.L?
Just trying to make suggestions.
I have not run any compressed loads for some time, but then I am still using the 175MK dinosaur.
I appreciate the suggestions.
OAL is 2.80 - 2.810
One advantage of the 175SMK is the fact you can load it with 44gr Varget and it takes up 99% case capacity. I used to shoot the 175SMK until I realized the advantage of the 155 Scenar at 1K yards.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
I run 44.5 Varget with no problems.....but this load was not seated to mag-length like yours are.
I am surprised you 155-guys have not found a powder that will get you the same velocities without exceeding 100% fill.
Ever tried Benchmark?
I run 44.5 Varget with no problems.....but this load was not seated to mag-length like yours are.
I am surprised you 155-guys have not found a powder that will get you the same velocities without exceeding 100% fill.
Ever tried Benchmark?
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run 44.5 Varget with no problems.....but this load was not seated to mag-length like yours are.
I am surprised you 155-guys have not found a powder that will get you the same velocities without exceeding 100% fill.
Ever tried Benchmark?</div></div>
Well Benchmark is a quicker powder. I too would be curious if anybody out there has tried it with the 155 Scenar. Can they get the desired velocity without a compressed load?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run 44.5 Varget with no problems.....but this load was not seated to mag-length like yours are.
I am surprised you 155-guys have not found a powder that will get you the same velocities without exceeding 100% fill.
Ever tried Benchmark?</div></div>
Well Benchmark is a quicker powder. I too would be curious if anybody out there has tried it with the 155 Scenar. Can they get the desired velocity without a compressed load?
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
My sixth sense says Benchmark can produce the same velocities with around 99.5% fill rate but the pressure will peak about 61000 psi versus 55600 with the H4895 load at a 106% fill rate.
Don't ask me how I know....it's magic.
Now I am gonna go run some numbers for the 135SMK since I just recently learned the little bastard exists.
My sixth sense says Benchmark can produce the same velocities with around 99.5% fill rate but the pressure will peak about 61000 psi versus 55600 with the H4895 load at a 106% fill rate.
Don't ask me how I know....it's magic.
Now I am gonna go run some numbers for the 135SMK since I just recently learned the little bastard exists.
Re: Tricks to reducing run-out?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My sixth sense says Benchmark can produce the same velocities with around 99.5% fill rate but the pressure will peak about 61000 psi versus 55600 with the H4895 load at a 106% fill rate.
Don't ask me how I know....it's magic.
Now I am gonna go run some numbers for the 135SMK since I just recently learned the little bastard exists.
</div></div>
61K psi is a little toasty for me.
Maybe you can do some more of your magic and please tell me how H335 would work. It has a burn rate similar to H4895 so I'm thinking pressures would be similar. Being a ball powder maybe there is less case fill.
And for our amusement, what is the peak pressure if I load it with Bullseye?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My sixth sense says Benchmark can produce the same velocities with around 99.5% fill rate but the pressure will peak about 61000 psi versus 55600 with the H4895 load at a 106% fill rate.
Don't ask me how I know....it's magic.
Now I am gonna go run some numbers for the 135SMK since I just recently learned the little bastard exists.
61K psi is a little toasty for me.
Maybe you can do some more of your magic and please tell me how H335 would work. It has a burn rate similar to H4895 so I'm thinking pressures would be similar. Being a ball powder maybe there is less case fill.
And for our amusement, what is the peak pressure if I load it with Bullseye?
