Advanced Marksmanship Trigger Over-travel - how much or none at all?

[frank320]

So, what is the consensus for long range precision shooting? Zero/minimal trigger over-travel or lots of over-travel?

It was my understanding that the old school method was to have lots of over-travel so as to minimize the trigger’s interference with the shot cycle after the break. But nowadays, it seems like lots of precision shooters are using TriggerTechs with almost zero over-travel.

 

[MarinePMI]

I think it's personal preference, but also think people's form (trigger control, recoil management, squaring up on the rifle, etc.) may play into that preference as well.

For me, I prefer a generous amount of overtravel. Mainly because sometimes I tend to slap the trigger, so it gives me, I feel, a little bit of "slop" factor when I'm feeling rushed and hurry my trigger control to release the round. (One of the reasons I love the AI trigger; crisp, but with some generous over travel.)

I do shoot with a KRG Midas two stage as well, which has virtually no over travel. It's a great trigger, but I have to focus more on trigger control (not necessarily a bad thing mind you) to shoot it well. Again, that's not the trigger's fault, that's just flaws in my fundamentals I need to spend more time improving.

Any ways, that's just my pea brain thoughts on the matter.

 

[Strykervet]

Tuning out overtravel on 2 stage triggers is generally something you'd do if you shot 3gun or wanted a more rapid firing 2 stage. Some overtravel is necessary and a little is desired otherwise.

That's according to Geissele.

 

[bourbonbent]

Over the course of 20+ years, I’ve found that I don’t notice overtravel any time except dry fire.

I do notice creep, which is the only thing that really irritates me other than a heavy trigger.

The Bix’N Andy feels like a cloud after the break. The Geissele Super 700 has a lot less overtravel and doesn’t feel as nice, but it breaks clean I don’t notice the overtravel during shooting unless I’m REALLY paying attention and looking for it, and any impact it has is overshadowed by the fact it’s not 5oz.

Given a preference, I like plenty of overtravel, but no overtravel is tolerable if your fundamentals are good. If you shoot magnums a lot, or find yourself wanting to really beat the shit out of the trigger shoe, overtravel is your friend. The way I see it, you’re building in room for shooter error, and that’s never a bad thing so long as it doesn’t negatively effect anything else.

When I say shooting magnums a lot, I don’t mean frequency, I mean volume. Shooting 40+ rounds of even an unbraked 7RM will have you feeling like you’re breaking a horse not shooting a rifle, so that overtravel is nice. On a thumper like the big 338’s and up, I wouldn’t want to have a back wall to crash into, I want overtravel. Yeah, a brake cuts it down a lot, but also adds concussive blast. No free lunch.

My thoughts on it, I’m sure others will have differing opinions and I’m interested to see what others say on the topic.

 

[frank320]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Very helpful. Keep them coming.

Much appreciated.

 

[frank320]

Additionally, I think the trigger pull weight matters also. If you have a heavy trigger, more over-travel might be more beneficial to help you slow down the post break movement.

On the other hand, nowadays, with light crisp triggers like Jewel and TriggerTech, a minimal over-travel that immediately halts any further movement after the break might make sense since the trigger weight was very light in the first place, thus taking very little effort to slow and stop it.

 

[Almonz]

For me it really depends on the overall feel of the trigger itself and what I am doing with the firearm. Some triggers have overtravel and it is very predictable, so I have no qualms there. As long as it's consistent and not a ridiculous amount I am fine with some overtravel.

 

[RTH1800]

I prefer no overtravel beyond what is needed for function. That being said, I don't seem to shoot any better one way than the other.

 

[EXSOCAL]

For anything other than a dedicated benchrest rifle I prefer a generous amount of over travel. As others have mentioned, I find the over travel to be a benefit when you’re breaking shots in a dynamic environment or under stress.

 

[AIAW]

I personally try to tune as much overtravel as possible out on a trigger that allows it. Mainly for follow-through crispness. More of a mental thing than a "fundamentals flaw" so to speak. As long as it's not excessive it shouldn't be detrimental.

 

[Geno C.]

I prefer no overtravel beyond what is needed for function. That being said, I don't seem to shoot any better one way than the other.

This is my way also. I have some jewell triggers that have no overtravel at all, and a couple bix that have all kinds. I’ve never been able to tell the difference in groups. I like the feel of no over travel better though for whatever reason

 

[Evolution 9]

For safe queens and bench rest guns it’s personal preference.

But if you rely on your gun for work or anything serious, more over travel is good and less is stupid stupid stupid.

I can think of few things more stupid than intentionally adjusting your gun to just barely work under ideal conditions just so your finger can “feel” better.

 

[Geno C.]

I’ve shot 10s of thousands of rounds and never had a trigger problem related to overtravel. Not saying it can’t happen. I shoot in the rain, snow, ice, dust, dirt and mud. Every once in a great while I’ll get to shoot on a sunny and dry day but that’s the exception.

 

[RTH1800]

I have been setting up triggers for minimum overtravel on hunting rifles for 45 years with zero issues. Carried them on every continent except Antarctica and fired a few shots. Zero issues. Properly set snow, ice, mud and sand have no effect.

 

[Evolution 9]

On any mechanical device, if it cannot move past exactly how far it needs to move to function, the very real potential exists for the slightest bit of foreign material to get in the wrong spot and prevent the necessary movement/function.

This is a mechanical fact and not subject to debate.

I’m fully aware that we could fill pages with success stories of guys who have never experienced that tiny bit of material in the wrong place, or who have a bit more over travel than they realize.

 

[RTH1800]

On any mechanical device, if it cannot move past exactly how far it needs to move to function,

Your self stated error as quoted above makes the erroneous assumption that anyone is setting up triggers that “cannot move past exactly how far it needs to move to function”

I doubt anyone here is doing that. Even temperature change could stop that from working.

 

[Evolution 9]

At least one poster here said his guns have “no” over travel.

Additionally, reducing over travel to the point that it isn’t noticed in dry fire puts you very near that point.... the only difference being a slight difference in the size of particle that can render an otherwise useful weapon useless.

As has been stated by others, group size isn’t really affected... so why on earth would we even risk reducing reliability???

 

[AIAW]

At least one poster here said his guns have “no” over travel.

Additionally, reducing over travel to the point that it isn’t noticed in dry fire puts you very near that point.... the only difference being a slight difference in the size of particle that can render an otherwise useful weapon useless.

As has been stated by others, group size isn’t really affected... so why on earth would we even risk reducing reliability???

If referring to my post, I didn’t say “none”, I said “as much as possible”. Which includes any tolerances that may need to be included. I get what you mean though - people adjusting their shit to the point that the sear barely dropped, etc.

Believe me, my stuff has been plenty dirty, a deep kind of dirty, and not once have I experienced a failure with fire control in this regard.

 

[Diver160651]

In benchrest sports all the recoil management is handled outside the shooters by mechanical means. The same is kinda true for F-class (belly-benchrest); Unfortunately, now a lot of guys moving that way in ELR. —side note: Benchrest guys have seen some of the issues and generally require the bolt removed completely for safety.

Because the shooter has less responsibility in controlling the gun, parts of once, to a few once triggers with zero creep and no over travel, work well. These guys don’t follow-thru the press.

Fast forward, now some positional guys are trying the same thing, except they are using heavier guns than some benchrest classes and the lightest recoiling 6mms like the BR variants to take recoil management and the shooter out of the mix. Part of the formula is Uber light single stage benchrest style triggers. But there are a few very ugly prices to pay.

Unfortunately, in a field gun where we very often run up against a clock and extract a live round, constantly move the rifles, setup in less than ideal ways, often in a dirty environment all while task loaded and rushing; NDs are happening. It just is NOT the benchrest environment.

Sadly, trigger failures are once again becoming more common, very common. Lately I’ve seen more issues than I ever have, from the gun powder dropped when the bullet stays in the chamber, to LOTS of fire on close and way to many touched off by just brushing the trigger during target prep.

Zero over-travel and benchrest weights... in positional shooting and the amount of NDs associated with that setup, really need to be rethought.

 

[Evolution 9]

Not referring to you specifically, AIAW.

A different poster said his had “no over travel at all”.

 

[Geno C.]

Not referring to you specifically, AIAW.

A different poster said his had “no over travel at all”.

I do have 2 that have virtually no over travel at all. Still no problems. My stuff isn’t life or death either. If I ever did have have a problem, the worst it would be is a lost match. Mine are adjusted that way simply because the first one was like that from the initial install and I really like it. I adjusted the second to mimic that one because the guns are identical and the triggers are also. Still no problems. Anyone on here that’s shot with me can tell you that I don’t baby my stuff. I shoot when I can, not when the weather is nice. Although I’ll do that too if it works out ?

 

[Diver160651]

If I ever did have have a problem, the worst it would be is a lost match.

That thinking is EXACTLY the problem..

1- The ND could end a match for everyone, forever.

2- Put the match and you in the path of legal and financial retribution.

3. Pay for a live stock that we see at some of the matchs.

4. Yes, and with the wrong series of events someone’s life..

So no, the worst that can happen is not simply a match DQ, that’s probably up there with the best that can happen.

 

[Geno C.]

That thinking is EXACTLY the problem..

1- The ND could end a match for everyone, forever.

2- Put the match and you in the path of legal and financial retribution.

3. Pay for a live stock that we see at some of the matchs.

4. Yes, and with the wrong series of events someone’s life..

So no, the worst that can happen is not simply a match DQ, that’s probably up there with the best that can happen.

No overtravel doesn’t cause a ND. It can cause the trigger not to to be able to be pulled far enough to release the seat.

I’m not in the habit of closing the bolt when I’m not on target, and sure as hell not when it’s not safe to do so.

If you’re thinking minimal seat engagement, that’s an entirely different story.

 

[Geno C.]

Or maybe you’re thinking a pull weight that is set too low? Again, and entirely different story.

 

[Diver160651]

Or maybe you’re thinking a pull weight that is set too low? Again, and entirely different story.

I am just saying NDs are a huge deal. And yes when we adjust weights and travel the sear is effected.

 

[Geno C.]

I am just saying NDs are a huge deal. And yes when we adjust weights and travel the sear is effected.

I fail to see where overtravel causes an ND.

 

[frank320]

NDs are generally associated with light triggers, minimal sear engagement and bad trigger habits. Little to do with trigger over-travel, in my opinion. Trigger over-travel is what happens after the trigger breaks and how one prefers to slow down and stop the post shot trigger movement.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you’re breaking trigger correctly, you won’t notice any of the overtravel anyway.

Perfect example is AI factory trigger. After it breaks, you can crush the trigger further. Never notice it unless you’re crushing trigger.

Theory with AI is the over travel helps with reliability and such.

So, I see leave a little in there and focus on trigger pull fundamentals. If you’re doing it right, your trigger will stop as soon as it breaks anyway.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No overtravel doesn’t cause a ND. It can cause the trigger not to to be able to be pulled far enough to release the seat.

I’m not in the habit of closing the bolt when I’m not on target, and sure as hell not when it’s not safe to do so.

If you’re thinking minimal seat engagement, that’s an entirely different story.

ND on target still an ND.

However, I agree, overtravel isn’t a big factor in trigger related NDs.

 

[Diver160651]

ND on target still an ND.

However, I agree, overtravel isn’t a big factor in trigger related NDs.

My reply mostly was to the entire craze of zero over travel + lightweight craze.

But most disturbing was the oh well ND comment

 

[Geno C.]

My reply mostly was to the entire craze of zero over travel + lightweight craze.

But most disturbing was the oh well ND comment

That my be, but you quoted me and I said nothing of light triggers with minimal sear engagement. Zero overtravel does not increase the likelihood of an ND. Not even a little bit.

 

[Evolution 9]

From my understanding I have to agree with you, Geno. Failure to fire, possible, firing when unintended, I don’t see that happening.

I do agree that the issues of light triggers, minimal sear engagement, and minimal over travel are usually very linked by the same type of shooters, but that by no means indicates that everyone who does one does all three.

 

[Diver160651]

From my understanding I have to agree with you, Geno. Failure to fire, possible, firing when unintended, I don’t see that happening.

I do agree that the issues of light triggers, minimal sear engagement, and minimal over travel are usually very linked by the same type of shooters, but that by no means indicates that everyone who does one does all three.

I get that, but other than being academic, I have yet to shoot a match with someone, or even seen of someone from the zero over-travel crowd shooting a trigger that is not tuned way, way down. I never specifically said or implied zero over-travel is the issue. I said “Zero over-travel and benchrest weights... in positional shooting and the amount of NDs associated with that setup, really need to be rethought.”

@Geno C. the only reason I quoted your post, again is only because you dismissed the real possible issues with trigger failures. You said “the worst it would be is a lost match.”

 

[Geno C.]

I get that, but other than being academic, I have yet to shoot a match with someone, or even seen of someone from the zero over-travel crowd shooting a trigger that is not tuned way, way down. I never specifically said or implied zero over-travel is the issue. I said “Zero over-travel and benchrest weights... in positional shooting and the amount of NDs associated with that setup, really need to be rethought.”

@Geno C. the only reason I quoted your post, again is only because you dismissed the real possible issues with trigger failures. You said “the worst it would be is a lost match.”

I was not talking about general trigger failures. I was talking about overtravel related failures.

The title of the thread and subject of my responses was overtravel?

 

[RRW]

In benchrest sports all the recoil management is handled out side the shooters by mechanical means. The same is kinda true for F-class (belly-benchrest); Unfortunately, now a lot of guys moving that way in ELR. —side note: Benchrest guys have seen some of the issues and generally require the bolt removed completely for safety.

Because the shooter has less responsibility in controlling the gun, parts of once, to a few once triggers with zero creep work well. These guys don’t follow-thru the press.

Fast forward, now some positional guys are trying the same thing, except they are using heavier guns than some benchrest classes and the lightest recoiling 6mms like the BR variants to take recoil management and the shooter out of the mix. Part of the formula is Uber light single stage benchrest style triggers. But there are a few very ugly prices to pay.

Unfortunately, in a field gun where we very often run up against a clock and extract a live round, constantly move the rifles, setup in less than ideal ways, often in a dirty environment all while task loaded and rushing; NDs are happening. It just is NOT the benchrest environment.

Sadly, trigger failures are once again becoming more common, very common. Lately I’ve seen more issues than I ever have, from the gun powder dropped when the bullet stays in the chamber, to LOTS of fire on close and way to many touched off by just brushing the trigger during target prep.

Zero over-travel and benchrest weights... in positional shooting and the amount of NDs associated with that setup, really need to be rethought.

Very well said and agree 100%. I am surprised there isn't a rule on trigger weights in Practical Rifle competitions. This is not Benchrest or F Class. Some of the trigger weights I seen some running is downright scary. Its only a matter of time before someone gets hurt or killed. A match dq would be the least of your worries.