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Trim to length question

GoatLD259

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 23, 2020
204
61
United States
Good evening Hide.

So I am new to reloading and am still learning.

My question today concerns 6.5 Creedmoor.

The reloading manual says to trim case to 1.91.” However, if I trim a case to 1.907,” is this ok still? What is the +/- I need to be in order to get consistent loads?

I know in reloading you want to be consistent as possible, but I just want to be sure in case I trim to much.

Goat
 
You'll be fine. General rule is to trim 0.010" from max case length spec, however, it all depends on what you want to do. The less you trim, the more theoretical loads you get per case (before neck splits, although there are other factors that causes neck splitting).

It also means that there is more material on the neck to grip the bullet (which you may or may not want). When you trim, you reduce the neck length (and cartridge length) it theoretically reduces neck tension. However, neck length is just one of the many variables in neck tension. (Neck concentricity, neck thickness uniformity, brass ductility and hardness, etc.).

Even if you have the same headstamp brass from the same lot, the case neck growth will not be uniform. Some will lengthen faster than others.

Maximum case length 1.920"
Minimum case length is 1.900",
you are 0.007" above minimum.

The more consistent your batch is, the better. A mixed batch that has a range of lengths from 1.907" +/- 0.003" will theoretically perform worse than a consistent batch that is 1.907" +/- 0.002". The quality of your trimmer and how you use it will determine how precise you can trim. +/- 0.001" and even +/- 0.0005" is possible.

How much would this variable affect your groups? Could be a lot, could be negligible. I say let the necks grow and keep trim lengths at 1.918" or below (basically trim off at least 0.002" from max specs of any cartridge.)

1639788318384.png
 
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Thank you for your response. However, I just want to clarify, the manual I have says the trim to length is 1.91. So, let’s say I trim to 1.905, is this ok to use? Will it’s performance still be consistent to cases that are trimmed to 1.91?

I want everything to be consistent.

Goat
 
Thank you for your response. However, I just want to clarify, the manual I have says the trim to length is 1.91. So, let’s say I trim to 1.905, is this ok to use? Will it’s performance still be consistent to cases that are trimmed to 1.91?

I want everything to be consistent.

Goat
1.905" will be fine but it's not likely that the performance will match the ones you've trimmed to 1.910". It's possible but not probable. There's too many variables involved.

The manual only lists 1.910" as the case trim to length because it's using the general rule of 0.010" below max spec. For 6.5 Creedmoor, as a standardized SAAMI has a max length of 1.920" and min of 1.900" (refer to picture posted). As long as you don't go below min or above max, it should function and be safe. Basically stay between 1.900" and 1.920"
 
Good evening Hide.

So I am new to reloading and am still learning.

My question today concerns 6.5 Creedmoor.

The reloading manual says to trim case to 1.91.” However, if I trim a case to 1.907,” is this ok still? What is the +/- I need to be in order to get consistent loads?

I know in reloading you want to be consistent as possible, but I just want to be sure in case I trim to much.

Goat

.....your trim length of 1.907" is within the min-max range per SAAMI, 1.900 (min) and 1.920 (max), it will be fine/safe. If your desire is for consistency, trim your brass to the same measurement, just settle on a length between those min-max numbers shown in the SAAMI drawing above.
 
You are not going to notice a difference in accuracy or consistency from trimming cases to same length. Trimming cases to keep them shorter than your chamber is for safety, not accuracy. Your chamber should longer than the sami trim spec. You can buy a tool to measure this length.
 
Shorter is fine. It's not dangerous and won't blow up or do dangerous shit.

The thing you want is consistency. Make them all the same. My current batch of brass on one of my guns is 0.5mm shorter than spec, or 0.020" (20 thou). Shoots great. They are all within 0.01mm.

If it's only 1 to 5 pieces, throw them out, or use as sighters or whatever. Or shoot and drop them next range day.
 
I trim my cases every time I reload. I have never had a neck split yet. The base pulls off before anything happens with the neck.

The part I don't understand. After say three trims, some cases act like they have never been trimmed while others the trim is just polishing the bevel.
 
I trim my cases every time I reload. I have never had a neck split yet. The base pulls off before anything happens with the neck.

The part I don't understand. After say three trims, some cases act like they have never been trimmed while others the trim is just polishing the bevel.
The amount of stretch from dies, brass alloy, amount of work hardening (annealing resolves this), how hot the ammo is, the phase of the moon, lots of things can affect case neck growth, but I don't think anyone can say for sure this is what'll do it.

The different growth rates is what made me stop trimming every load and I haven't seen a change in group sizes or SD/ES variation that I can definitively say that the trim length was what caused it. So I'm in the camp of make sure there's enough neck length to grip the bullet at your seating depth and that's just keep it between min and max. I also trim with an LE Wilson so maybe if I had a Giraud I'd be singing a different tune.

A lot of people swear by keeping necks as consistent as possible due to neck tension, material to grip bullet bearing surface during seating, etc. Lots of voodoo and science. OP will eventually try it all out.
 
I trim my cases every time I reload. I have never had a neck split yet. The base pulls off before anything happens with the neck.

The part I don't understand. After say three trims, some cases act like they have never been trimmed while others the trim is just polishing the bevel.
I have identical weirdness. No idea why, but just accept it.
 
Thank you for the responses.

When I do finally find some primers and powder, what is the best way to find the best powder charge? I was planning to start at the starting weight charge as per the manual I have, then go up in .2 increments. How many rounds at each charge should I load? Do I generally want to find a node that is the highest velocity I can get that is not over pressure?

So just to clarify from my original question for this post. The trim to length is just for safety? The problem I was having, is I would trim, then measure, then trim a bit more and that’s when they would come out shorter than the 1.91 as I accidentally trimmed too much.

All the ones I kept are within .005 of the 1.91. As someone who is new to reloading, I just want to be sure if accuracy or velocity is affected by case length? I have a ton to learn.

Goat
 
Thank you for the responses.

When I do finally find some primers and powder, what is the best way to find the best powder charge? I was planning to start at the starting weight charge as per the manual I have, then go up in .2 increments. How many rounds at each charge should I load? Do I generally want to find a node that is the highest velocity I can get that is not over pressure?

So just to clarify from my original question for this post. The trim to length is just for safety? The problem I was having, is I would trim, then measure, then trim a bit more and that’s when they would come out shorter than the 1.91 as I accidentally trimmed too much.

All the ones I kept are within .005 of the 1.91. As someone who is new to reloading, I just want to be sure if accuracy or velocity is affected by case length? I have a ton to learn.

Goat

Depends on who you ask and what your goals are.

Several top 1k F Open shooters claim they see a difference on paper between consistent lengths of brass vs not. However, there could be some significant confirmation bias or just other things going on. Also, if you’re not using joystick style rests and large eared rear bags, you likely won’t be able to shoot small enough anyway.

The easy answer is a premium trimmer like Giraud and run them through each time and not worry about it. And as a new loader, I wouldn’t spend a ton of time concerned with the brass length for now. As long as it’s not over sized.


As far as powder testing, that’s also a mixed bag depending on your purpose. Shooting steel off a bipod and rear squeeze bag or off props…..you’ll generally be ok with most any load that’s safe and consistently loaded with quality components.

If you want to shoot considerably smaller you can do more detailed load development. 3 or 5 shot strings can eliminate the “bad” loads (if it shoots bad in short string, it won’t shoot good in a long string), but you won’t know for sure if it’s “good” without statistically meaningful string sizes.

And .3 increments is typically good for things until you get into pretty large cartridges with a lot more powder.
 
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...based on your "new to reloading experience", I'd suggest starting your load charge weight with the one listed in the "middle" of the range your particular load manual lists, same if you are using the powder manufacturer web page for load data. As for your planned .02 grain increment, that's fine, best to go slow as you gain experience, just DON'T exceed the max charge weight. Inexperience can lead to unnoticed errors in the loading process that will make themselves known once the trigger is pulled, with a variety of "fanfare" level 💥
 
Trim to length can affect function (it actually fitting into the chamber), safety (having enough neck to grip the bullet at the bearing surface - this depends on bullet seating depth and location, length of the bullet bearing surface, and neck length), can affect velocity and accuracy. To answer your question, it can be all of the above. To what extent does it affect all of the above, there's no definitive answer.

For your powder load development, you have ladder testing, OCW and a bunch others. There's a lot of science, theories and art involved - everyone has their favorites. None of the below steps even gets into seating depth testing. Always load to safe pressures, understand what pressures signs look like (flattened primers, cratered primers, ejector wipe, extractor marks, etc.)

1. You load 0.2gr increments (min 3 rounds per increment) starting at 10% under book max pressure, shoot the rounds keeping track of velocity (you need a chronograph) and pick the middle of the flattest velocity "node". Conducted at minimum 100yds distance, 1 target per charge weight.

2. You load 0.2gr increments (min 3rds per increment) starting at 10% under book max pressure, shoot the rounds and identify where on each target the rounds are impacting. You select the middle of sequential charge weights where the impacts all land in the same area (if aim at center, some charge weights impact 12 o'clock, some 6 o'clock, some 3 o'clock, some 9 o'clock, but you find 3 or more different charge weight increments in a row that impact the same distance from center at the 8 o'clock, the middle is what you pick for these 8 o'clock shots). Conducted at minimum 100yds distance, 1 target per charge weight.

3. You load 0.2gr increments (1 rounds per increment) starting at 10% under book max pressure, shoot the rounds making sure you track the order in which you shot each charge weight increment then note where the impact is on the target. You select the average charge weight where all the impacts are in a similar area on the target. Preferred 300yd, but the farther the distance the test is conducted the better.

4. You load 0.2gr increments (min 3rds per increment) starting at 10% under book max pressure, shoot the rounds on target tracking their velocity and group sizes. Pick the velocity level that you like that produced the group sizes that you liked and forever load those to that charge weight ideally +/- 0.1gr (preferably +/- 0.0gr). Conducted at minimum 100yds distance. 1 target per charge weight.

There are probably some other ways but those are 4 of the common ones.
 
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Something that hasn’t quite been gone over yet in this thread and that I believe is very important to your original question. You should invest in a bump gauge to determine how much setback you need on the shoulder when full length sizing which I’m guessing as a new reloader you are doing. Once you bump the shoulder back say .002 from your chambers fired brass you then should invest in a quality trimmer that trims off the shoulder. Not one that trims overall length from the base. Then you can set the length one time on your trimmer to the measurement you settle on and never really need to adjust it again. This is the best way to trim to your rifles chamber is off the shoulder of a fired case that is bumped back from your rifles chamber.