Trouble getting accurate OAL w/hornady guage

[Vandy321]

Novice reloader. Learning as I go. Have watched most the videos and seem to take it that a gentle tap until the bullet just kisses the lands is the right ammount of pressure, problem is, my measurements using the hornady OAL and the bullet comparator for CBTO when touching varies almost .005...

I may take it up to mile high and have the pros show me how it's done, but would like to learn myself as well.

Using the hornady modified 300wm case and berger 215s. Trying to jump these initially .020, but seeing a .005 variance in my measurements makes it hard to get a reference point. Worried about touching the lands as this is a hunting rifle.

Any tips, tricks, suggestions on the firmness of the pressure required when using the OAL gauge? So far I'd call it a very gentle tap till it first makes contact.

 

[spife7980]

I like this method, easy to find it and it’s all component based so that you can screw it up.


Some people go to hard jam and measure from there. Some people go to touch and measure from that. I like touch myself which the wheeler makes perfectly clear. Clean your stuff and dry it good so you don’t get readings off of built up fouling.


That said, just put the .005 range in you book, when you measure again you’ll probably find that same margin. So you’ll know about how much it’s eroded relatively. Let your testing indicate where you need to seat now starting from touch to however far off your bullet choice dictates.
I think the hybrids would be fine in .010 increments back and show some preference relatively easily.

 

[RegionRat]

Don’t be shy about asking for help.

There is a good lesson to learn by observing the difference between gently touching the rod, and tapping the bullet in hard with the rod. Depending on how the throat has been reamed, some designs create more of a “sudden wall” and some are a “vague ramp”. The dimension ends up being sensitive to the force and friction of those cut lands, so if you noticed a spread of only 0.005” you did well.

The next step is to decide if that is good enough to open a gap so you are happy it won’t extract a bullet, or if you really need to go further.

I have often found that depending on the type of ogive I plan to use, and the reamer design, that a very hard tap on the rod that gives the longest seating depth is often still not going to jam.

To determine this, one must make dummy rounds and remove the ejector to use the bolt as a gage. Some designs are more likely to accidentally pull the bullet than others. If you plan to stay close to the light touch dimension in your load testing, and only seat deeper and never longer, you can probably skip the dummy round and bolt closure testing and go get to work. If you want more verification, use the Hornady gage as a starting point and later on as a way to manage the loading process.

 

[Vandy321]

I like this method, easy to find it and it’s all component based so that you can screw it up.


Some people go to hard jam and measure from there. Some people go to touch and measure from that. I like touch myself which the wheeler makes perfectly clear. Clean your stuff and dry it good so you don’t get readings off of built up fouling.


That said, just put the .005 range in you book, when you measure again you’ll probably find that same margin. So you’ll know about how much it’s eroded relatively. Let your testing indicate where you need to seat now starting from touch to however far off your bullet choice dictates.
I think the hybrids would be fine in .010 increments back and show some preference relatively easily.

Going to try that method in the video. Getting the firing pin out is easy...the ejector might be a challenge for me without the proper tools. I have a set of punches, is it doable with a punch and a used case to compress the ejector spring....or worth the $30 to buy the sinclair tool?

 

[RegionRat]

Going to try that method in the video. Getting the firing pin out is easy...the ejector might be a challenge for me without the proper tools. I have a set of punches, is it doable with a punch and a used case to compress the ejector spring....or worth the $30 to buy the sinclair tool?

I don’t own the Sinclair tool. I just use regular shop tools but I’ll admit I’ve been doing stuff like that a long time and it might be good if you had someone experienced watch over your shoulder the first time. If you are inclined, you won’t have any trouble.

ETA: make sure you keep a rod handy in case you stick a round. You will want to take it that far if you are going to the trouble anyway.

 

[spife7980]

Going to try that method in the video. Getting the firing pin out is easy...the ejector might be a challenge for me without the proper tools. I have a set of punches, is it doable with a punch and a used case to compress the ejector spring....or worth the $30 to buy the sinclair tool?

I just use a finishing nail! If you have a punch you’re already ahead of the game.
Smack the punch through to knock the retaining pin out, clip a case under the extractor and pivot it back to depress the ejector, slide the punch out, let the case off slowly but don’t let the spring loaded ejector fly out.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Have you seen what magazine length is? You might not even be able to get to the lands if your magazine length isnt long enough. Depending on the length of the ogive of your 215s, I've never used those before, maybe trying to measure for actual length is irrelevant

 

[_Raining]

I used to use the wheeler method but it takes too long for me. Now I just diff the case base to shoulder datum measurement between the hornady modified case and a fireformed case and use that to add to the measurement. In all honestly it doesn't matter what the number is as long as you are using the same method every time. If I measure CBTO of 2.880" and do a seating depth test and find out that 2.860" is the sweet spot for the load. It does not matter if that is actually 10 thou off or 15 thou or 20 thou, as long as I use the same method to measure the distance to the lands then I can chase them accordingly.

As others have said, clean the throat before doing either test because it will make it more difficult to get a consistent reading.

 

[Vandy321]

Have you seen what magazine length is? You might not even be able to get to the lands if your magazine length isnt long enough. Depending on the length of the ogive of your 215s, I've never used those before, maybe trying to measure for actual length is irrelevant

3.82 COAL in the Wyatts extended box mag

 

[skidhc]

Novice reloader. Learning as I go. Have watched most the videos and seem to take it that a gentle tap until the bullet just kisses the lands is the right ammount of pressure, problem is, my measurements using the hornady OAL and the bullet comparator for CBTO when touching varies almost .005...

I may take it up to mile high and have the pros show me how it's done, but would like to learn myself as well.

Using the hornady modified 300wm case and berger 215s. Trying to jump these initially .020, but seeing a .005 variance in my measurements makes it hard to get a reference point. Worried about touching the lands as this is a hunting rifle.

Any tips, tricks, suggestions on the firmness of the pressure required when using the OAL gauge? So far I'd call it a very gentle tap till it first makes contact.

I have never been able to get consistent results when using the Hornady modified cases. However, when I use cases fired in that chamber and modified myself, extremely consistent results are possible with this tool. It does take a bit of practice to determine the correct amount of pressure but once you do, it is a very fast and reliable method IMO.

Stephen

 

[skidhc]

This article explains how to make your own modified cases...

Make Your Own Modified Case for Hornady O.A.L. Gauge « Daily Bulletin

In this video, Forum member Erik Cortina shows how to create a custom modified case for use with the Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gauge (formerly the...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[Ryridesmotox]

3.82 COAL in the Wyatts extended box mag

Does one loaded a bit short... say 3.80 hit the lands? I usually crank up a dummy cartridge that will be max mag length and see if the bolt will close without undue resistance.

My point here is... you may be chasing your tail if you want to magazine feed. Sometimes the magazine can be the limiting length factor when loading, depending on bullet selection. What length are you getting with hornady gauge?

 

[Milo 2.5]

I have never been able to get consistent results when using the Hornady modified cases. However, when I use cases fired in that chamber and modified myself, extremely consistent results are possible with this tool. It does take a bit of practice to determine the correct amount of pressure but once you do, it is a very fast and reliable method IMO.

Stephen

How would a perfectly concentric modified case for Hornady or Copper Creek be any less consistent than your homemade ones? I can see the number being more accurate as far as length, given a fired case adds 4-6 thou that will be unaccounted for in a new case.
It is still an arbitrary number regardless, unless a specific jam is desired.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Novice reloader. Learning as I go. Have watched most the videos and seem to take it that a gentle tap until the bullet just kisses the lands is the right ammount of pressure, problem is, my measurements using the hornady OAL and the bullet comparator for CBTO when touching varies almost .005...

I may take it up to mile high and have the pros show me how it's done, but would like to learn myself as well.

Using the hornady modified 300wm case and berger 215s. Trying to jump these initially .020, but seeing a .005 variance in my measurements makes it hard to get a reference point. Worried about touching the lands as this is a hunting rifle.

Any tips, tricks, suggestions on the firmness of the pressure required when using the OAL gauge? So far I'd call it a very gentle tap till it first makes contact.

You never mentioned if this is a new unfired chamber or a used rifle. First thing you want to do is ensure the tool itself and the bullet slide freely before insertion. I had one that the rod hung up on and was a POS.
Id by chance the chamber is new, it pays to get a rough number, stay 10-15 off and fire 10 rds, the throat can be rough or have a slight burr left in it.
Also, if worried about touching like you say, staying 20 thou off the smallest number you get should result in being at least .020" off. Most likely you will shoot for the perfect seat depth.

 

[skidhc]

How would a perfectly concentric modified case for Hornady or Copper Creek be any less consistent than your homemade ones? I can see the number being more accurate as far as length, given a fired case adds 4-6 thou that will be unaccounted for in a new case.
It is still an arbitrary number regardless, unless a specific jam is desired.

I think it is because the case body of the modified Hornady case is relatively small and the case mouth is relatively large - basically designed to fit any chamber so they are "sloppy" . I have not tried one from Copper Creek (actually didn't know they made them until you mentioned it) so can't comment on that. Pretty sure Hornady just runs unfired cases over a mandrel to expand the neck (leaving the body the original unfired/undersized dimension) to accept a projectile.

Stephen

 

[skidhc]

@Vandy321 Something else that I failed to point out previously - depending on what bullet you are using, the base-ogive dimension can vary significantly from one bullet to the next - even from the same lot. If you have measured this dimension on your bullets and know they are consistent (i.e., with a few thousands) with your comparator, you are ok (understanding that they do vary some) with taking multiple measurements with different projectiles. However, if you haven’t and are getting .005” variance using the one same bullet, the issue is likely as I described previously.

Stephen

 

[ZiaHunter]

Novice reloader. Learning as I go. Have watched most the videos and seem to take it that a gentle tap until the bullet just kisses the lands is the right ammount of pressure, problem is, my measurements using the hornady OAL and the bullet comparator for CBTO when touching varies almost .005...

I may take it up to mile high and have the pros show me how it's done, but would like to learn myself as well.

Using the hornady modified 300wm case and berger 215s. Trying to jump these initially .020, but seeing a .005 variance in my measurements makes it hard to get a reference point. Worried about touching the lands as this is a hunting rifle.

Any tips, tricks, suggestions on the firmness of the pressure required when using the OAL gauge? So far I'd call it a very gentle tap till it first makes contact.

The Hornady tool will give fairly consistent readings +/- .001 if done properly. 300WM case lengths and chambers are all over the place and best to use a fire formed case from the rifle. Drill and tap it to accept the Hornady tool then resize the body of the case to the proper headspace. If you have a bushing die remove the bushing so not to size the neck other wise expand with a mandrel to allow the bullet to float freely in the case. I usually take three to four measurements. Would not advise getting to close to the lands and give yourself a minimum of .010 jump. I believe Eric Cortina who is an excellent F Class competitor posted a youtube video on this subject.

 

[antithesis]

....or worth the $30 to buy the sinclair tool?

Really a personal preference thing. The tool makes things a little easier for quick maintenance, but in cases where you want to handle the bolt without the tool still being attached it may not be so great. The issue being you cannot place or remove the tool if the pin it not either all the way in or all the way out, and getting the pin started with the tool in place it a bit of a pain.

 

[skidhc]

@ZiaHunter I agree - the only thing I would say different is that you don’t have to resize the case body (in fact, I would argue that results will be better/more consistent if you don’t)

 

[Vandy321]

Does one loaded a bit short... say 3.80 hit the lands? I usually crank up a dummy cartridge that will be max mag length and see if the bolt will close without undue resistance.

My point here is... you may be chasing your tail if you want to magazine feed. Sometimes the magazine can be the limiting length factor when loading, depending on bullet selection. What length are you getting with hornady gauge?

Rifle is new, test fired by the smith is all.

I dont have my notebook with me but 2.798 I believe was the average CBTO, I will double check and edit that # if I'm wrong.

Rifle was chambered by mile high specifically for the 215s to load long in wyatts extended. I'm going to give the method in the video a shot as well as give another round of measurements with a firmer/even pressure on the guage. Will post of some result if they are close or not, just for data points.

Yes, the OAL guage was sticky out of the box, the little bit of extra plastic on the outsides of that grey dowel caused a little friction. I hit it lightly with sandpaper and its smooth as butter.

Big thanks to all for the inputs! I'l let ya know what I find!

 

[Vandy321]

Final verdict. I agree with whomever was saying to get a solid measurement with OAL gauge, it may be pushing bullet into the lands slightly.

Spend 4 hours tonight (entirely too long).

5 x measurements with the OAL (2.796 CBTO)

Bolt lift method took me forever (2.801 CBTO)

 

[RegionRat]

Final verdict. I agree with whomever was saying to get a solid measurement with OAL gauge, it may be pushing bullet into the lands slightly.

Spend 4 hours tonight (entirely too long).

5 x measurements with the OAL (2.796 CBTO)

Bolt lift method took me forever (2.801 CBTO)

Now run your load development and see where the groups are best. Some rigs like jam, some like jump, etc. These numbers are all for reference and the load development will steer you from here. Good Luck.

 

[Dev L]

I found with too much neck tension on the modified case I could not get an accurate reading. With a normal loose case mouth to just touching, it was plus or minus a thou. Too much neck tension results in it stopping jammed which varies too much. I also push the case in with equal semi firm pressure to remove brass deflection differences from shoulder pressure.

 

[Sheldon N]

Any tips, tricks, suggestions on the firmness of the pressure required when using the OAL gauge? So far I'd call it a very gentle tap till it first makes contact.

Anymore with the Hornady tool I just jam the hell out of the bullet into the lands, knock it out with a cleaning rod, then back off 30 thou from there and test seating depth in that vicinity.

If I want to know exact "touch" i use the Wheeler method in the video above.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Sheldon is my huckleberry on this one.

 

[AIAW]

Am I the only one that actually does a casting of my chambers and uses that as my guide? Not like it really matters though: the tool or casting is well "close enough".

Ugly casting in this case (I didn't pre-heat the chamber) but dimensionally completely accurate.

 

[SnowMan]

Vandy321, It turned into a tedious wast of time for me. It was a pain in the ass to try and get any consistency out of it. The best thing I did was give it away. Got me a nice digital caliper and just went by the OAL in the manual. Life was much simpler. My consistency and accuracy was much better. You will get a slight variation in OAL just because the tips of the bullets will vary slightly but it will be very consistent at the ojive. If you have a hunting rifle with a standard chamber, I think it will work just fine for you. Then you can start loading them longer or shorter with a fixed point of reference. Just my experience for what its worth.

 

[powerspc]

I stopped trying to measure with the Hornady tool as well; too much variation. Then I stumbled on this from Berger and have never looked back.

Tools:
A cartridge case that has been fired in your gun, and not resized.
A bullet of the type to be used, with a full, undamaged nose.
Calipers.
A dark felt-tipped marker.

​

Process:

Step 1
Insert the bullet into the neck of the fired case. It should fall freely into the case, with no resistance.
Step 2
Remove the bullet from the fired case and press the case neck lightly on a flat surface to create a small indentation or flat surface in the case neck so that it will grip the bullet.
Step 3
Insert the bullet, base first, into the case so that the case just grips the bullet by itself. Just get the bullet started into the case—don’t seat it too deeply.
Step 4
Completely color the bullet with the marker.
Step 5
Gently insert the case and bullet into the chamber of the firearm, and close the action. Do not pull the trigger.
Step 6
Carefully open the action and gently remove the case.
Step 7
Retrieve the bullet. It will either be stuck up in the lands of the barrel or still in the case. If the bullet is stuck in the lands, it can be removed by tapping the butt of the gun on the ground. Or, it can be dislodged by gently pushing it out with a cleaning rod. If the bullet is still in the case, then gently remove it with your fingers, taking care not to mar the ink, and proceed to step 8.
Step 8
During Step 5, the lands will have contacted the bullet and pushed it back into the case, causing the case neck to scrape the ink off of the bearing surface of the bullet. Simply push the bullet into the case until the edge of the case neck is just to where the ink has been scraped off.
Step 9
Carefully measure the overall length of the dummy cartridge. This overall length is called your “rifle seating” depth. It is where the bullet contacts the lands of the barrel. This length is different for every different type of bullet, as it depends upon the shape of the ogive (the taper) and the meplat (the tip of the nose) of the bullet.
Step 10
A. Set your seating die to seat at a depth between .015 and .03 inches less than your rifle seating depth.
B. Lightweight bullets may need to be seated further from the rifling. A depth of one bullet diameter inside the case neck gives good alignment and neck tension for ignition.
C. The overall length must be short enough to function through the magazine.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I like this method, easy to find it and it’s all component based so that you can screw it up.


Some people go to hard jam and measure from there. Some people go to touch and measure from that. I like touch myself which the wheeler makes perfectly clear. Clean your stuff and dry it good so you don’t get readings off of built up fouling.


That said, just put the .005 range in you book, when you measure again you’ll probably find that same margin. So you’ll know about how much it’s eroded relatively. Let your testing indicate where you need to seat now starting from touch to however far off your bullet choice dictates.
I think the hybrids would be fine in .010 increments back and show some preference relatively easily.

This ?

This method works particularly well for VLD’s ?

 

[supercorndogs]

I just get a soft touch with the hornady tool, and back away from that at least .02.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

This ?

This method works particularly well for VLD’s ?

Very helpful video I plan on trying this as I tried the hornady tool,took like 30 measurements and got about 20 different results.

 

[LtDan47]

I got tired of fighting the offset so I bought this digital height gauge and mounted it on a 3/8 Plate my own version of the Hornady gage locks into the plate works great.

 

[charnicus]

I like this method, easy to find it and it’s all component based so that you can screw it up.


Some people go to hard jam and measure from there. Some people go to touch and measure from that. I like touch myself which the wheeler makes perfectly clear. Clean your stuff and dry it good so you don’t get readings off of built up fouling.


That said, just put the .005 range in you book, when you measure again you’ll probably find that same margin. So you’ll know about how much it’s eroded relatively. Let your testing indicate where you need to seat now starting from touch to however far off your bullet choice dictates.
I think the hybrids would be fine in .010 increments back and show some preference relatively easily.

Thought I’d jump in late to the game and speak to this method here. For awhile now I’ve dicked around with the Hornady tool. No longer will I punish myself with that frustration and inconsistency.